50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Every time Jesus taught me, He used the written word to teach. I always use the written word.
For example, Jesus asked me, "At the time John saw this vision, I had already been in heaven for years Why did John not immediately see me (Rev. 4) at the right hand of the Father? There are over a dozen verses saying that is where I went to be, and Stephen even saw me there?
It is an absolute fact of scripture: John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father as he looked into the throne room in his vision. Will you declare this as false or will you acknowledge that Jesus was right: John DID NOT see Him at the right hand of the Father?
Note: Jesus was making a point, showing me HIS intent when John saw this vision.
I have never said "I cannot be deceived." If you think I am, then please, so me scriptures AGAINST what I write? If I give words I say Jesus spoke to me, then prove by scripture it could not be Jesus speaking.
A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching.
Easy. 2 Thess 2:1 The order is very clear.
Then why your laughter? And the question.
[QUOT] The rapture then is TIMED to just before wrath.[/QUOTE]
Not in the slightest. If you study all the rapture verses and compare them with the Second Advent verses, the commonalities are more than any so-called differences.
Easy. 2 Thess 2:1 The order is very clear.
Then why your laughter? And the question.
Correct.
Of course. The sole issue is whether raptures the living believers and takes them back to heaven. I have found NO VERSE that says that.
Right. The DOTL begins at the Second Advent, and continues through the Millennium.
Oh, this should be interesting.
And NOTHING about going back to heaven.
You are confused. When Jesus returns, you bet there will be "sudden destruction" of unbelievers, those who have surrounded Israel and about to attack to destroy them. Jesus prevents that from happening. btw, there are no "left behind" anyone, since Jesus doesn't go back up to heaven. He stays on earth to set up His kingdom.
Actually, it is the END of God's wrath.
[QUOT] The rapture then is TIMED to just before wrath.[/QUOTE]
Not in the slightest. If you study all the rapture verses and compare them with the Second Advent verses, the commonalities are more than any so-called differences.
You have ZERO verses that say that John "saw raptured church" in heaven. That's just your opinion. By that time, the VAST majority of the church WILL already be in heaven.
Why don't you include verses that support your claim here? What you are implying is that there are several resurrections of believers, but that is not supported by any Scripture.
Nope. The rapture, or better, the gathering, ends the Tribulation. We call it the Second Advent.
Prove it with a verse, please.
Why should anyone believe a claim that is without support or evidence?
lamad said:
Could you show the verse that they DO get to heaven? I have never heard that before.
If you had a verse for either category you would have just given it, rather than stall for time.
Could you show the verse that they DO get to heaven? I have never heard that before.
That's it; stall.
If you had a verse for either category you would have just given it, rather than stall for time.
Keep hanging around this place.
See for yourself.
They claim as you to have direct revelation and were shown by God, heaven and even the Holy Spirit that they use scripture with devine guidance.
Iow...all opposing views are going
Against God himself.
Uh...not today.
I check everything out.
If you did, you you would know that there are no verses or passages that make clear the idea that Jesus comes "in the clouds", then resurrects the bodies of all dead saints, then changes all living saints, and then takes them all up to heaven.
Those who HAVE checked everything out already know that.
part of my view is direct revelation.
Part is illumination by the Holy Spirit
Part is rightly dividing the word through study
Part is letting scripture interpret scripture.
I never invoke the "God showed me." (As far as this cessationist forum)
Because there can be no discussion with that nuclear bomb dropped. Instead my job as a reporter is to simply report my $.02 .
If they agree...fine
If they disagree..no big deal
If they attack or go personal o put one finger on the ejection button and procede with caution.
But my job at some point is to MAKE THEM go against the word...not personal revelation
Only a few can handle it.
One day i will record my visions i have seen from time to time over the past 44 years.
This aint the venue
Part is illumination by the Holy Spirit
Part is rightly dividing the word through study
Part is letting scripture interpret scripture.
I never invoke the "God showed me." (As far as this cessationist forum)
Because there can be no discussion with that nuclear bomb dropped. Instead my job as a reporter is to simply report my $.02 .
If they agree...fine
If they disagree..no big deal
If they attack or go personal o put one finger on the ejection button and procede with caution.
But my job at some point is to MAKE THEM go against the word...not personal revelation
Only a few can handle it.
One day i will record my visions i have seen from time to time over the past 44 years.
This aint the venue
Well, this explains a whole LOT!
Those who think they have gotten "direct revelation" from the Lord are totally deceived. When John finished penning Revelation, direct revelation was completed.
Can you explain the difference between the indwelling (2 Tim 1:14) and filling of the Holy Spirit (Eph 5;18), what grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) are and how to be filled with the Spirit? If you can't, you cannot claim illuination by the Holy Spirit.
See the point above, about the filling of the Holy Spirit.
Uh, you just did EXACTLY that, by your claim that "part of my view is direct revelation".
That's what you have already done.
Well, there you go again, with your claim of "direct revelation" yes also and contrarily claiming that you've "never invoked the God showed me" claim.
But thanks for your transparency and honesty.
As long as you twist Scripture to make it mean what you want it to say.
(Matthew 25:13 CEV) So, my disciples, always be ready! You don't know the day or the time when all this will happen.
(Matthew 25:13 ERV) "So always be ready. You don't know the day or the time when the Son of Man will come.
(Matthew 25:13 ISV) So keep on watching, because you don't know the day or the hour."
(Matthew 25:13 LITV) Therefore, watch, for you do not know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man comes.
(Matthew 25:13 BBE) Keep watch, then, because you are not certain of the day or of the hour.
(Matthew 25:13 NIrV) "So keep watch. You do not know the day or the hour that the groom will come.
(Matthew 25:13 NIV) "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
(Matthew 25:13 ESV) Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
(Matthew 25:13 NKJV) "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
(Matthew 25:13 RV) Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour.
(Matthew 25:13 WEB) Watch therefore, for you don’t know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
(Matthew 25:13 WEBA) Watch therefore, for you don’t know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
(Matthew 25:13 Webster) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of man cometh.
(Matthew 25:13 YLT) 'Watch therefore, for ye have not known the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man doth come.
YOU have no leg to stand on, with your erroneous statement "A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture,"
is not only POSSIBLE, but also PROBABLE.
Give them enough Rope. LOL
Consider:
John 14:3 -
"And if I go [active] and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you [paralēmpsomai - G3880] unto myself; that where [/at whichever spot] I am, there ye may be also."
John 14:28 -
"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away [active], and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go [active] unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
John 16:16-22 -
"16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go [active] to the Father.
17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go [active] to the Father?
18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you."
John 20:17 [said to MM] - "I ASCEND [ACTIVE] unto My Father" (ON "FIRSTFRUIT" [His resurrection day], He did this)
John 20:19 -
"Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the weeks [plural], when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you."
Luke 24:41 -
"And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?"
John 20:26 -
"And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you."
John 21:1,2,13,14 -
"1 After these things Jesus shewed [/revealed (active) - G5319] himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.
2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.
[...]
13 Then Jesus cometh and...
14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself [/was revealed (passive) - G5319] to his disciples, after that he was risen out-from the dead."
... and in all of these references, none refer to when He will be "OPENLY MANIFEST" [His "MANIFESTATION"] (to ALL), Who is "King of kings and Lord of lords" (1Tim6:15 / Rev19:16 / 17:14 and 2Th2:8b [distinct from v.1 ], etc )Perhaps the 144,000 is not in any way related to the parable of the virgins. What then? I don't know of any scripture that would show is they are related.
Those who think they have gotten "direct revelation" from the Lord are totally deceived. So Paul was totally deceived and his gospel by which we will be judges is wrong. With that kind of faith, it is quite sure God is not going to speak to you. But what are you going to do with what Jesus said: " My sheep know my voice and they hear me? "
When John finished penning Revelation, direct revelation was completed. Who said? You? God has certainly not changed. I think I will go with Jesus here and listen for His voice.
Can you explain the difference between the indwelling (2 Tim 1:14) and filling of the Holy Spirit (Eph 5;18) Yes, certainly.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Remember Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost? He said, "these are not drunk..." because they were acting drunk. In fact, they WERE drunk, not with wine, but with the Holy Spirit. Remember what happened? The spoke in tongues. In Acts 10 they spoke in tongues and magnified God. In Acts 19 they spoke in tongues and prophesied. When people receive the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit, or are filled with the Spirit (two ways to say the same event) the speak supernaturally. Ephesians 5 is just saying to be in agreement with the Holy Spirit and allow your spirit man or woman to speak in psalms or hyms or spiritual songs (songs in the spirit made up on the spot).
All this is about the Holy Spirit "UPON" versus the Holy Spirit within which one gets the moment they are born again. I think it was John Wesley that taught often about a "second, definite work of grace in a believer. That is proven by scripture. Your scripture in Timothy speaks of the first work of Grace by the Holy Spirit - regeneration of the human spirit with the Holy Spirit within. The Ephesians scripture speaks of the second work of grace.
Must people get filled with the Spirit by the laying on of hands. It was that way in Acts 8 and 19.
You've been blessed with a divine revelation that you're saying is Biblical and then can't use scripture to back it up?
Because there can be no discussion with that nuclear bomb dropped. Instead my job as a reporter is to simply report my $.02 .
If they agree...fine I disagree Paul told us to let 2 or 3 prophecy (speaking Supernaturally by the Holy Spirit) and let the others judge. The book of Acts has many supernatural speakings and revelations. What did the others do? They judged. Paul gave his testimony of revelations over and over. It is therefore scripture to do so. It is up to the hearers to judge. God does not speak the same thing to different believers, so we should share revelation knowledge. So what if some don't believe it. Others many receive it. I am certainly not embarrassed that God has spoken to me. I freely share what He has said so others can judge.
FreeGrace2 said:
A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching.
If you had any you would have just quoted them to refute my statement.
[QUOTE[YOU have no leg to stand on, with your erroneous statement "A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture,"
is not only POSSIBLE, but also PROBABLE.
Give them enough Rope. LOL[/QUOTE]
Ha. You're just laughing at yourself, since Matt 25:13 DOES NOT SAY that Jesus takes raptured believers back up to heaven, no matter HOW MANY TIMES you quote the verse.
So you see, you failed to refute my statement that there are no verses that tell us that Jesus takes raptured believers back up to heaven.
You may want to get that bullet hole in your foot looked at and taken care of.
A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching.
Show me ANY verse that says Jesus raptures living believers (gathering up) and then TAKES THEM UP TO HEAVEN.
If you had any you would have just quoted them to refute my statement.
As I thought. All you have is a verse about the FACT that no one knows when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
[QUOTE[YOU have no leg to stand on, with your erroneous statement "A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture,"
is not only POSSIBLE, but also PROBABLE.
Give them enough Rope. LOL[/QUOTE]
Ha. You're just laughing at yourself, since Matt 25:13 DOES NOT SAY that Jesus takes raptured believers back up to heaven, no matter HOW MANY TIMES you quote the verse.
So you see, you failed to refute my statement that there are no verses that tell us that Jesus takes raptured believers back up to heaven.
You may want to get that bullet hole in your foot looked at and taken care of.
Are you SURE of this? I was sure there was a verse about clouds.
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (and in the clouds]."
As for taking the church back to heaven, why do you dis John 14? Where did Jesus go? He went to heaven. Therefore the homes He has prepared are in heaven just as that passage tells us. Where is Jesus from the sixth seal in chapter 6 to His coming in chapter 19? Since He is not on earth, He must be in heaven - and where He is there are we to be also. Why is this so difficult for you to believe?
Question: have you ever watched a Jet plane take off, climb, then disappear in a cloud? How then can "every eye see" Jesus when he is hidden in a cloud? Did you ever at least think that perhaps these are two different comings? Untold millions of believers believe this, so you would not be alone.
Did you ever stop to wonder what this might cost you if you are wrong?
Did you actually read what Jesus said? He was still living on earth, pre-crucifixion. And He DID fulfill that promise about coming again. He DID that 3 days after His crucifixion and He DID receive them unto Himself. The verse has been fulfilled.
As to the "housing issue", it should be obvious that He was telling living people that when they died, there would be a place for them in heaven. And THAT promise has also been fultilled.
Fulfilled 3 days AFTER the crucifixion.
Fulfilled 3 days after the crucifixion.
What are you trying to prove with this verse?
See? Fulfilled.
Can you explain what you are trying to prove with this verse?
Yep. Fulfilled.
See again? As I said, all your verses about Jesus saying He would come again, He has already fulfilled, as you have proven quite handily.
Jesus wasn't even speaking about the Second Advent. He was referring CLEARLY to 3 days after His crucifixion.
Are you kidding? I wasn't speaking about those who WROTE the Scripture, obviously. I was speaking about those NOW who claim "direct revelation". They are quite deluded, and just full of themselves.
Save your breath. You have no idea what the whole issue is by my statement.
Who said, you ask? Again, are you kidding? Didn't you read the last chapter of Revelation?
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
If you think that God is still giving "direct revelation" to certain honored people, you are deluded as well. Scripture is finished. We have all that God intended.
What we need to know is in His Word. Every bit of it.
This doesn't explain the DIFFERENCE between indwelling and filling.
And none of this explains the difference either.
Well, you're quite behind the times. No longer.
Since Acts, people were indwelt with the Spirit by faith.
Acts 10-
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
Recall in Acts 2 that there was NO laying on of hands when the group of believers received the Holy Spirit.
With Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized withwater, but you will be baptized withthe Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
And confirmed by Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
All this to say that you have shown that you do NOT understand the difference between indwelling and filling.
As most of evangelicalism seems not to either. A very sad state of affairs.