50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[TheDivineWatermark]

So you're saying these verses happen before the great tribulation?
Matthew 24:37-41
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

I'm saying (as I've been saying all along) that: ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of / etc" verses / passages speak of His Second Coming to the earth [to judge and to reign]... see verse 37 ^ .

This passage is speaking of the time-period immediately preceding and leading UP TO *that* ^ point (aka at His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19); thus, this ^ passage is depicting the years immediately preceding His "RETURN" to the earth (when "and DESTROYED THEM ALL" will be true, per Lk17:26,27,29 and context).<--This is NOT what takes place at [/following] "our Rapture" point-in-time (which is followed by "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME, doing ALL he is slated to DO *during the entire tribulation period* which immediately precedes and leads UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth Rev19... See the difference?)



Again, Matt24:37-51 (and its PARALLEL in Lk12:36,37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"; and also its parallel in Lk17:26,27,29 "and DESTROYED them ALL") is NOT speaking of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point-in-time... (it is NOT depicting "our Rapture," nor describing "our Rapture"--rather, those who will be existing in/during/within the "7 yrs" and who will "endure unto the end" OF THAT--to ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom in their MORTAL BODIES capable of reproducing/bearing children: "FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] EARTH" Dan2:35c / Gen9:1 / Matt24:37-51 and its parallels Lk12:36+ [and Lk17:26,27,29], etc etc...).

 

[FreeGrace2]

...says the man who is notorious for leaving words and whole phrases out of a verse

I dare you to prove that false statement.

What I'd said in that LINKed post was:

"the FIRST time He appeared "apart from sin" [was] FOLLOWING His finished CROSS-work [i.e. after His resurrection!]--though it was numerous appearances, all told), He will do THIS "a second time... [again [APPEAR-G3807 (passive)] apart-from-sin]"

Again, Jesus comes to earth TWICE. That is the clear meaning of "a second time".

..and again, NOT speaking of the "OPENLY MANIFEST BEFORE ALL" (but, like the FIRST time He did was ONLY TO carefully chosen WITNESSES, Acts 10:41), "[SHALL APPEAR] UNTO them that look for Him"[/QUTO4]
All your caps, bold, underlined and italics only make your posts hard to read and follow.

Could you just type the words and leave out all your emotions?

The "SECOND TIME" in relation to what? (what does the TEXT say?)

Oh, how about the FIRST TIME"? Why doesn't that make sense?

 

[FreeGrace2]

What you're suggesting it says, is: "a SECOND TIME will appear. [FULL-STOP]"...

implying (in your mind), as in contrast to His "FIRST ADVENT" (i.e. born and then went to the Cross, spans of time [BETWEEN these]).

[I'm saying, it doesn't say that]

It means exactly that.

I still have no idea what you think it means. Leave out all the emotional emphases so we can figure out what you are trying to say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Truth7t7 said:
I believe in the future (Catching Up) as seen below in 1 Thess 4:15-17, however this takes place at the second coming, last day resurrection as clearly seen below.

A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching.

Why do you keep posting myths?
If the 1 Thes 4 coming is after the trib, prove it by scripture. Just someone believing something is no proof.

Easy. 2 Thess 2:1 The order is very clear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

EVERYTHING in Matthew 24 takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture".

Where in Matt 24 do you see this?

 

[Runningman]

I'm saying (as I've been saying all along) that: ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of / etc" verses / passages speak of His Second Coming to the earth [to judge and to reign]... see verse 37 ^ .

This passage is speaking of the time-period immediately preceding and leading UP TO *that* ^ point (aka at His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19); thus, this ^ passage is depicting the years immediately preceding His "RETURN" to the earth (when "and DESTROYED THEM ALL" will be true, per Lk17:26,27,29 and context).<--This is NOT what takes place at [/following] "our Rapture" point-in-time (which is followed by "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME, doing ALL he is slated to DO *during the entire tribulation period* which immediately precedes and leads UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth Rev19... See the difference?)



Again, Matt24:37-51 (and its PARALLEL in Lk12:36,37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"; and also its parallel in Lk17:26,27,29 "and DESTROYED them ALL") is NOT speaking of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point-in-time... (it is NOT depicting "our Rapture," nor describing "our Rapture"--rather, those who will be existing in/during/within the "7 yrs" and who will "endure unto the end" OF THAT--to ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom in their MORTAL BODIES capable of reproducing/bearing children: "FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] EARTH" Dan2:35c / Gen9:1 / Matt24:37-51 and its parallels Lk12:36+ [and Lk17:26,27,29], etc etc...).

By all accounts Jesus returns after the tribulation, not before the anti-Christ is revealed. Jesus gathers His elect and punishes the wicked like a flood in the days of Noah. It's very plain. I think you don't want to accept this truth.

Matthew 24:30-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

By all accounts Jesus returns after the tribulation, not before the anti-Christ is revealed. Jesus gathers His elect and punishes the wicked like a flood in the days of Noah. It's very plain. I think you don't want to accept this truth.

I not only JUST SAID that He does... I've also stated this same thing throughout this thread.



[THAT ^ is the SUBJECT Jesus is covering in His Olivet Discourse (His "RETURN" to the earth... parallel to Isaiah 27:12-13)... He is NOT covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" which is disclosed and explained in other contexts ELSEWHERE; By the time He spoke His Olivet Discourse (up to it and INCLUDING it), He had NOT YET spoken ANYTHING re: "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"]

 

[lamad]

Forgot one term........the "revelation/revealed". Directed to the Church it always means the rapture event.

1Pe 1:7
1Pe 4:13
1Pe 1:13

These all could just as well apply to when "every eye will see Him..."

 

[cv5]

These all could just as well apply to when "every eye will see Him..."

I disagree. When the intended audience is the Church........the rapture is always the case.

 

[lamad]

By all accounts Jesus returns after the tribulation, not before the anti-Christ is revealed. Jesus gathers His elect and punishes the wicked like a flood in the days of Noah. It's very plain. I think you don't want to accept this truth.

Matthew 24:30-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

By all accounts Jesus returns after the tribulation, Sorry, this is simply not truth. By Paul's account of Jesus coming to the air, it is an account, and it is not after the tribulation. Rather it is before wrath. These are two different times separate by over 7 years.

not before the anti-Christ is revealed. This too is impossible simply because the restraining force preventing Him from being revealed Is the Holy Spirit working through the church. That is the significant departing - "apostasia" - has to come first, as Paul stated. Notice that AFTER the departing ("Apostasia") the man of sin "is revealed" verse 3b.

punishes the wicked like a flood in the days of Noah. No, sorry again, but wrong. This time the punishment is the trumpets and vials.

Notice verse 30 above: When Jesus comes to Armageddon, it is DARKNESS. Not just at night, but 24-7 darkness. That is one sign of His coming: neither the sun nor moon visible.

The elect gathered in verse 30 above CANNOT be Paul's rapture. These two events will be over 7 years apart. We must not pull verses out of their context to form a doctrine. Just because someone finds ONE WORD in two verses - "gather" they imaging it is the same gathering! As if God cannot choose to gather twice.

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God This will be His coming to Armageddon - NOT His coming for His church where he remains in the clouds.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Where in Matt 24 do you see this?

I've stated in this thread:

--"the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are EQUATED with the "SEALS" of Rev6 (and Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 states that the "future" aspects of this Book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"]);

--Paul informs us that [as the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY"] "the DOTL" time-period *ARRIVES* like the INITIAL one that COMES UPON a woman... 1Th5:2-3;

--Paul, further, in 2Th2:2-9a in his point telling the Thessalonians NOT to be persuaded by anyone "[purporting / alleging] THAT the day of the Lord IS HERE / IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]," goes on to explain, "3 that day [the TIME-PERIOD the purporters were wrongly purporting "IS HERE / IS PRESENT" per v.2] will NOT be present, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [i.e. the noun-event PAUL is BRINGING to the FORE, *back* in v.1 (the PURPOSE of the "definite article" in v.3b's "THE departure")] *and* [distinctly] the man of sin BE REVEALED...";

--and I am pointing out that "the man of sin BE REVEALED" at the START of that ^ "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 talks about (which time-period INCLUDES the "SEALS" (see Rev6:2) aka "the BoBPs" including its INITIAL one [1Th5:2-3], at the *ARRIVAL* of the DOTL time-period (aka "IN THE NIGHT")... thus also pointing to the FIRST ONE that JESUS HIMSELF had listed... [see next entry]);

--which ["FIRST SEAL" /] "INITIAL birth PANG" Jesus talked about is the "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]" Matt24:4 / Mk13:5... which is parallel to the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" 2Th2:9a of "the man of sin" ('IN HIS TIME'--the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period 1Th5:2-3 says ARRIVES like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"), which 2Th2:9a passage is further parallel to the "the prince THAT SHALL COME" Dan9:26b (<--which "underlined" phrase would be superfluous/redundant *IF* referring to the SAME person as in v.25), and "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" v.27a (noting that v.27 has ALL THREE PARTS of the entire seven years, JUST AS does Paul's covering ALL THREE PARTS of those 7 yrs in this 2Th2 passage... just like does Rev4-19 and Jesus' Olivet Discourse does in Matt24... each covering the connecting points: its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END [of the entire 7 yrs]);

--Paul is basically making the point that "the man of sin be revealed" occurs at the SAME TIME that "the ARRIVAL of the DOTL [earthly] time-period" occurs/arrives (to unfold upon the earth)... and ONE THING must happen *FIRST* BEFORE "that time-period WITH ITS MAN OF SIN" can be present to unfold upon the earth

(and is why the Thessalonians [and all members of 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' even today] should NOT be convinced by anyone trying to "purport / allege THAT the DOTL IS HERE / IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]"... BECAUSE of what HE/PAUL is BRINGING TO the FORE in v.1... the SUBJECT of "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" / "OUR Rapture [IN THE AIR]" / "THE Departure [*FIRST*]" / "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus" when WE [and "WE" ALONE] GO "TO the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" / "the One delivering US out-from [ek] the wrath coming" 1Th1:10;

...such is the truths that serve to provide "comfort"--and I believe Paul uses the word "comfort" to connect this especially to the One who is called "the Comforter / Advocate / Helper / Paraklete / Paraklēton [MASCULINE; <--the only passage / reference / phrase referring to the Holy Spirit in the "masculine"... corresponding with the "masculine" reference in 2Th2:7b "the one restraining [masc] at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [masc] [/come to be]. AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..."]" [<--this at the "BEGINNING" points to all of the OTHER passages ALSO pointing to the BEGINNING of the 7 yrs, NOT its MIDDLE, nor its END... though each parallel section Scripture also covers ALL THREE PARTS of those 7 yrs (which, again, Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 [/7:3] refers to as the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period... <--and this phrase [in bold] as found also in Rom16:20 & Lk18:8 speak to SAME])

--the things I've pointed out about Rev5:9 (the "24 elders" saying, "hast redeemed US out of every..." [see also Rev1:6]) is CONSISTENT with this SEQUENCE



--[Matt24:29-31 being parallel with Isaiah 27:12-13 is also consistent with the OTHER parts of the SEQUENCE issues I've spelled out... regarding His "RETURN" to the earth point-in-time Rev19 (NOT "our Rapture")]



--much more... but enough for one post...

 

[lamad]

I disagree. When the intended audience is the Church........the rapture is always the case.

Why do you believe that? He comes to Armageddon with fire. Is there a verse somewhere that shows fire in His coming to the clouds?

 

[lamad]

--which ["FIRST SEAL" /] "INITIAL birth PANG" Jesus talked about is the "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]" Matt24:4 / Mk13:5... which is parallel to the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" 2Th2:9a of "the man of sin" ('IN HIS TIME'--the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period 1Th5:2-3 says ARRIVES like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"), which 2Th2:9a passage is further parallel to the "the prince THAT SHALL COME" Dan9:26b (<--which "underlined" phrase would be superfluous/redundant *IF* referring to the SAME person as in v.25), and "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" v.27a (noting that v.27 has ALL THREE PARTS of the entire seven years, JUST AS does Paul's covering ALL THREE PARTS of those 7 yrs in this 2Th2 passage... just like does Rev4-19 and Jesus' Olivet Discourse does in Matt24... each covering the connecting points: its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END [of the entire 7 yrs]);

-which ["FIRST SEAL" /] "INITIAL birth PANG Sorry, but you are mistaken on the first seal. It seems you have ignored the CONTEXT of the first seal.

I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing.” Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (At this point in time, today, I cannot remember if these were audible words, or if this was the still small voice; all I can say is I very clearly heard God speak these words to me.)

I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Again my spirit man said that he could not answer this question. The Lord did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see any timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking and asking God for help.

Finally after three or four more weeks of study, I heard His voice again. He said, “go and study chapter 12.”

When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

“This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon! Then He said, “now you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again.” I would guess this interlude on chapter 12 was less than one hour. At first I could not understand why He sent me there. But now I know: it was to get “history lesson” into my brain! You see, the first five verses of chapter 12 was Jesus showing John what the dragon did to attempt to destroy Him when He was born. These events were before John was born, so was certainly a “history lesson” for him!

I turned back to begin meditating again on chapters 4 & 5, but suddenly it was different than before! It one instant of time, I could answer all three of His questions! To this day I am not sure that was a “download” or if just having “history lesson” in my mind made the difference. I immediately knew that this was a vision of the past, or another “history lesson” for John: he was seeing into the throne room of the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. “no man was found” worthy to break the seals, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer worthy to break the seals. And the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

Then, in chapter 5, we see the movement of time; another search was started as soon as the first one ended in failure. But in this second search, someone was found! Time was moving, and at this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was immediately found worthy. So John got to see, in this vision, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Then we see, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This then, Jesus ascension, sets the CONTEXT and timing of the first seal. One cannot find 2000 years between these verses!

Next, if we count them up, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and all the other times to represent righteousness or Godliness. It would be very silly to imagine God would just "white" 16 times to represent righteousness and then use it once to represent evil. In truth it would never happen.

The first seal then has to be something righteous around the time Jesus ascended. The only answer is the church sent out with the gospel.

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel.
Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age.
Seal 6 starts the time of judgment and the wrath of God
Seal 7 starts the 70th week.
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint
The 7th vial ends the week.

 

[Runningman]

By all accounts Jesus returns after the tribulation, Sorry, this is simply not truth. By Paul's account of Jesus coming to the air, it is an account, and it is not after the tribulation. Rather it is before wrath. These are two different times separate by over 7 years.

not before the anti-Christ is revealed. This too is impossible simply because the restraining force preventing Him from being revealed Is the Holy Spirit working through the church. That is the significant departing - "apostasia" - has to come first, as Paul stated. Notice that AFTER the departing ("Apostasia") the man of sin "is revealed" verse 3b.

punishes the wicked like a flood in the days of Noah. No, sorry again, but wrong. This time the punishment is the trumpets and vials.

Notice verse 30 above: When Jesus comes to Armageddon, it is DARKNESS. Not just at night, but 24-7 darkness. That is one sign of His coming: neither the sun nor moon visible.

The elect gathered in verse 30 above CANNOT be Paul's rapture. These two events will be over 7 years apart. We must not pull verses out of their context to form a doctrine. Just because someone finds ONE WORD in two verses - "gather" they imaging it is the same gathering! As if God cannot choose to gather twice.

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God This will be His coming to Armageddon - NOT His coming for His church where he remains in the clouds.

I see you don't understand the Seals in Revelation 6.

Closely note in Matthew 24:29-30 is what is described in Seal 6:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Revelation 612-13
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind

Notice the wrath of God doesn't come until the 6th seal:

Revelation 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Jesus said these signs will happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and then the Son of man appears.

When the Son of man comes He brings the wrath of God:

Matthew 24:37
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

He will also be glorified in His saints:

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The gathering to Lord Jesus Christ occurs after the anti-Christ is revealed:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Closely notice the anti-Christ isn't destroyed until after Jesus comes:

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

All of this means the rapture is after the GT. And don't try to say there are multiple comings of Christ either because that's unscriptural and you won't provide verses for it when nicely asked.

Also, as proved by Matthew 24 and Revelation 6, the 6th seal is the day of God's wrath when Jesus returns and God's wrath occurs after the return of Christ, not before.

The great tribulation is not God's wrath:

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Revelation 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[lamad]

Truth7t7 said:
I believe in the future (Catching Up) as seen below in 1 Thess 4:15-17, however this takes place at the second coming, last day resurrection as clearly seen below.

A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching.

Easy. 2 Thess 2:1 The order is very clear.

Ha ha ha ha ! I hope you are kidding me.

OF COURSE He comes first, then there is a shout and a trumpet...and then the dead in Christ are caught up. But WHEN? People look in all the wrong places for WHEN. Paul is the only one that gives us WHEN for this event: just before wrath.

 

[cv5]

Why do you believe that? He comes to Armageddon with fire. Is there a verse somewhere that shows fire in His coming to the clouds?

I think you are missing my point. His appearing/revealing to the Saints is always for relief/comfort/rest. Judgment/tribulation is for "them" not "us".

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Where in Matt 24 do you see this?

I've stated in this thread:

--"the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are EQUATED with the "SEALS" of Rev6 (and Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1

You failed to put in the ENDquote here, so had to include all the cites. Where do you get that beginning of birth pangs are EQUATED with the "seals" of Rev 6. I mean, from the Bible, of course. You make a lot of claims, but don't include support for them.

states that the "future" aspects of this Book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"]);[/quoe]
This is just gobbly-gook. PLEASE quit your brackets, italics, underlinings, parentheses, etc, so I can get to your point.

--Paul informs us that [as the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY"] "the DOTL" time-period *ARRIVES* like the INITIAL one that COMES UPON a woman... 1Th5:2-3;

Sure. birth pains begin, which signals a birth is coming. Duh. The FIRST group of God's judgment are the seals, followed by the trumpets , and then the bowl judgments. All of the Trib is the DOTL.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching.

Easy. 2 Thess 2:1 The order is very clear.

Ha ha ha ha ! I hope you are kidding me.

OF COURSE He comes first, then there is a shout and a trumpet...and then the dead in Christ are caught up.

Then why your laughter? And the question.

But WHEN? People look in all the wrong places for WHEN. Paul is the only one that gives us WHEN for this event: just before wrath.

Are you allergic to providing evidence for your claims?

If Paul gave us the WHEN for this event, you should have included the verse/passage.

Why didn't you?

 

[lamad]

I see you don't understand the Seals in Revelation 6.

Closely note in Matthew 24:29-30 is what is described in Seal 6:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Revelation 612-13
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind

Notice the wrath of God doesn't come until the 6th seal:

Revelation 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Jesus said these signs will happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and then the Son of man appears.

When the Son of man comes He brings the wrath of God:

Matthew 24:37
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

He will also be glorified in His saints:

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The gathering to Lord Jesus Christ occurs after the anti-Christ is revealed:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Closely notice the anti-Christ isn't destroyed until after Jesus comes:

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

All of this means the rapture is after the GT. And don't try to say there are multiple comings of Christ either because that's unscriptural and you won't provide verses for it when nicely asked.

Also, as proved by Matthew 24 and Revelation 6, the 6th seal is the day of God's wrath when Jesus returns and God's wrath occurs after the return of Christ, not before.

The great tribulation is not God's wrath:

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Revelation 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I see you don't understand the Seals in Revelation 6. Ha ha! So funny. But very consistent from someone who thinks they know, when in truth they don't.

losely note in Matthew 24:29-30 is what is described in Seal 6: Wow! The classic error of posttribbers. Have you not studied these things in depth? Your answers are like from a beginner. You find two words that are the same or close to the same in two different verses, and instantly declare they are speaking of the same thing! This is beginner level.


First, the signs of the coming Day of the Lord from Rev. 6:

1. The sun turns black... What event is well known to CAUSE the sun to appear black? It is a total eclipse of the sun. How would one know the sun is eclipsing unless they SEE IT? In other words, this sign is visible. Don't take my word for it, look up photos of a total eclipse of the sun: it is BLACK!

2. The moon appearing blood red. What event is well known to cause the moon to appear red? Again it is a total eclipse of the moon. Again, how would anyone know the moon is appearing read UNLESS THEY SEE IT? In other words, this sign is visible.

Next, WHEN is it? It is on a seal sealing a book that holds the 70th week inside. No part of the 70th week can take place until God finds someone qualifed to take the book and open the seals. Jesus rose from the dead and then was qualified. So He began opening the seals.
Seal 1: the church sent out with the gospel
Seals 2-4: The devil's attempts to stop the gospel
Seal 5: the martyrs of the church age. Judgment cannot begin until the final church age martyr.
Seal 6: judgment begins, showing us the church age is OVER. The final martyr killed. The DAY Of His wrath begins.

Take careful note: John has not yet started any part of the 70th week. That will begin with the 7th seal.

So for TIME: the signs for the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath will come before any part of the 70th week. That will be over 7 years BEFORE the signs in Matthew 24.

Now the signs in Matthew 24: they come after the days of tribulation or after the 70th week. They are the signs for HIS COMING.
Note: different purposes for each sign: first for the DAY, then years later for HIS COMING.

“‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

Darkened is the Greek word skotizō Strong's tells us
"to cover with darkness, to darken
...to be covered with darkness, be darkened
...of heavenly bodies as deprived of light

If the sun is deprived of light, that means it is invisible! If the sun is putting out no light, then the moon is invisible. But it goes farther: The 5th vial:

10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness.

The sign of the coming of our Lord to Armageddon is TOTAL DARKNESS. Neither the sun or moon can be seen. How then can ANYONE imagine these are speaking of the same event: The time is wrong and the actual events are different.

Just the fact that the 6th seal is in chapter 6 of Revelation and His coming to Armageddon is in chapter 19 should be a huge hint that your theory is off. That is another thing I have notice from posttribbers: they think nothing of rearranging John's God given chronology as if it was wrong.

 

[lamad]

A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching.

Easy. 2 Thess 2:1 The order is very clear.

Then why your laughter? And the question.


Are you allergic to providing evidence for your claims?

If Paul gave us the WHEN for this event, you should have included the verse/passage.

Why didn't you?

If you are on a public forum, you should know all these verses almost by heart.

Go back and look in 1 Thes 5: look for this phrase "get to live together with Him." That is just another way of saying, "so shall we every be with the Lord" from chapter 5. This is proof Paul is still on the subject of the rapture.

Then notice, just 3 verses after His classic rapture verse, 4:17, Paul mentions the Day of the Lord - just as if that day has something to do with the rapture or the timing of the rapture. The truth is, IT DOES.

Next Paul gives us a paradigm: showing or displaying two groups of people that get two totally different results at the same moment in time:
1. Those in Christ get "salvation" or get caught up and get to live together with Him (the rapture).
2. AT THE SAME TIME, those NOT "in Christ" get sudden destruction. Then Paul hints strongly that this sudden destruction (probably the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ raising) is the start of God's wrath, telling us that God has set no appointments for us with His wrath. Who gets those appointments? Those left behind who get the sudden destruction. So this is the start of the Wrath of God. The rapture then is TIMED to just before wrath. In Revelation that would be between the 5th and 6th seals. And shortly after that John SAW the raptured church in heaven. See how it all fits together?

Another hint by John: the 5th seal martyrs of the church age are told that judgment cannot come until the FINAL church age martyr is killed. The rapture will END the church age, and make some martyr the final church age martyr. Then John starts judgment with the 6th seal.