50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

lamad · Apr 21, 2021

Very strange: when John saw the raptured church in heaven, he had not yet even started the 70th week in his narrative, much less arrived at the last half of the week! In fact, he shows us that the days of GT where the mark is enforces is not until late in chapter 14. Yes, he did write that they came out of great tribulation, but I and several commentaries believe he is speaking of the church age. It is great in that it is long, so it is all the tribulations the church has suffered through since the beginning.

When John was asked who they were, and was then told, the answer was NOT how they suddenly arrived in heaven but rather how they - one at a time - left the world and came to Jesus to join this group of believers - and at that time were still coming.

In contrast, John shows us the martyrs of the great tribulation just starting to show up in heaven in chapter 15. Ignore these things and people end up with false doctrine. The truth is, John saw this group in heaven just after the start of the Day of the Lord. This does not mean the rapture is during the day of the Lord, for they were already in heaven when John saw them. So they arrived in heaven some time before John saw them.

This fits perfectly with Paul's teaching in 1 Thes. 5 that the rapture will come JUST before wrath - or just before the 6th seal.

lamad · Apr 21, 2021

VCO said:

No, I am extremely comfortable, with the TRUTH I believe with my whole heart. I do not even care if you want to continue to believe a different Theology. Have it your way. And I will believe what the Holy Spirit has put my HEART to BELIEVE.

The reason I refuse to Argue, or Chasen, or even Get Into a Heated Debate; is these Verses:

Titus 3:9-10 (NCV)
9 But stay away from those who have foolish arguments and talk about useless family histories and argue and quarrel about the law. Those things are worth nothing and will not help anyone.
10 After a first and second warning, avoid someone who causes arguments.

2 Timothy 2:22-24 (NCV)
22 But run away from the evil young people like to do. Try hard to live right and to have faith, love, and peace, together with those who trust in the Lord from pure hearts.
23 Stay away from foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they grow into quarrels.
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, a good teacher, and patient.

So it is time to say Good Bye. You can believe what you want; and I will always believe what the Holy Spirit put in my heart to BELIEVE.

Do remember the LORD SAID THESE VERSES:

Mark 13:32-33 (NCV)
32 “No one knows when that day or time will be, not the angels in heaven, not even the Son. Only the Father knows.
33 Be careful! Always be ready, because you don’t know when that time will be.

Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come. (To steal HIS BRIDE away.)[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace2 said:

Maybe you don't understand what's even between your ears.

Do you think with the muscle that pumps your blood? Doctors call that muscle a "heart". Is that what you think with?

Is is a defense of your position? That it "came naturally to you". As if that means something special?

My theology, which is totally biblical, gives me great joy. I know I am secure by the eternal life that Jesus gave me when I put my faith in Him to save me.

btw, for discussion purposes, let's say you are wrong. And the Tribulation begins and you find that NO ONE disappeared.

How much joy will that bring you?

Here's the deal. If I'm wrong and there is a pre-trib rapture, my smile on the way up will be AT LEAST as big as yours.

HOWEVER, if you are wrong, will you be smiling?

Don't play word games with me. Jesus has TWO "comings" to earth. The first one was about 2,000 years ago, when He was born to Mary in Bethlehem.

His Second Coming or Advent will be when He returns to end the Tribulation and win the battle of Armageddon. At that time, He will bring with Him all the dead saints who have been in heaven, and with them, will meet the gathered (raptured) believers who are living on earth when He returns. It is in the clouds that the dead ones receive their resurrection bodies, and the living ones are changed. Both will have bodies just like Jesus' resurrection body.

At that point, Jesus will continue down to earth and set up His Millennial kingdom and "rule the nations with a rod of iron". Rev 12:5 and 19:15.

Excuse me, but the trip from heaven to the clouds of earth is certainly a coming. He COMES to the atmosphere for the resurrection and changing of believers.

Since Jesus gave parables which HAD TO BE EXPLAINED BY HIM to even His disciples, do you really think you have enough moxy to understand them all by yourself?

So what? No parable teaches a pre-trib rapture. But nice try.

Let's focus on John 14:2. When Jesus said that, He was STILL ALIVE on earth, speaking to His disciples. It should be obvious to the astute that every one of those disciples would physically die within that century. So Jesus was speaking of having a place for them after they died.

There is nothing in that verse about Jesus physically taking them to heaven.

None of these verses specifies that Jesus takes anyone back up to heaven. None.

Since Paul left out ANY mention of the Tribulation, how do you determine when this event will take place?

In fact, what Paul wrote here and in 1 Cor 15:52 contains the same elements as in the obviously Second Coming verses.

Because NONE of it mentions the Trib. Your timeline is rather warped.

You are only seeing what you want to see.

I don't believe what the Bible DOESN'T SAY.

I DO believe what the Bible says.

Why don't you?[/QUOTE]

Jesus has TWO "comings" to earth. The first one was about 2,000 years ago, when He was born to Mary in Bethlehem.

You have missed one.
1. He came and was nailed to a cross. (The gospels)
2. He will come for His bride, and take us to the homes He has prepared. (John 14 and 1 Thes. 4)
2. Seven plus years later, He will come WITH His bride to Armageddon (Rev. 19)

FreeGrace2 · Apr 21, 2021

I said:
"Because NONE of it mentions the Trib. Your timeline is rather warped.

You are only seeing what you want to see.

I don't believe what the Bible DOESN'T SAY.

I DO believe what the Bible says.

Why don't you"

VCO said:

The "truth" that you believe isn't biblical truth. It is only YOUR "truth".

My theology is solidly biblical. Regardless of what you care about.

No, I'll have it God's way.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

These verses don't help you.

It is time to quit when you have no ammo.

I believe what the Bible says. And you are free to believe whatever tickles your ears.

Of course I remember these verses. Jesus wasn't referring to a pre-trib time, as you assume or speculate.

He was referring to His Second Advent.

Evmur · Apr 21, 2021

lamad said:

Very strange: when John saw the raptured church in heaven, he had not yet even started the 70th week in his narrative, much less arrived at the last half of the week! In fact, he shows us that the days of GT where the mark is enforces is not until late in chapter 14. Yes, he did write that they came out of great tribulation, but I and several commentaries believe he is speaking of the church age. It is great in that it is long, so it is all the tribulations the church has suffered through since the beginning.

When John was asked who they were, and was then told, the answer was NOT how they suddenly arrived in heaven but rather how they - one at a time - left the world and came to Jesus to join this group of believers - and at that time were still coming.

In contrast, John shows us the martyrs of the great tribulation just starting to show up in heaven in chapter 15. Ignore these things and people end up with false doctrine. The truth is, John saw this group in heaven just after the start of the Day of the Lord. This does not mean the rapture is during the day of the Lord, for they were already in heaven when John saw them. So they arrived in heaven some time before John saw them.

This fits perfectly with Paul's teaching in 1 Thes. 5 that the rapture will come JUST before wrath - or just before the 6th seal.

all this assumes you have interpreted Daniel and Revelations correctly

Evmur · Apr 21, 2021

Absolutely said:

It is quite simple We are saved from the wrath of God
we are not save from tribulation we are saved with and through tribulation

Tribulation comes from the world and is persecution. The great tribulation is the great end times persecution

FreeGrace2 · Apr 21, 2021

Absolutely said:

I have pointed out MANY times that by the time Jesus returns at the Second Advent, the VAST MAJORITY of saints, including all from the church age, will already be IN heaven.

So, when Jesus returns, the living believers left on earth will be a very SMALL FRACTION of the "Bride of Christ". So MOST of the church will already be in heaven.

You are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

There is nothing in the Bible about the wedding occurring in heaven. That is just a construct. ie: made up.

No He didn't and the parable spoke NOTHING about a rapture. In fact, your need to cite a parable shows the extreme weakness of your view. Jesus didn't give parables to teach doctrines, but rather to speak truth to those who aren't interested.

Did you miss the FACT that even His own disciples needed Jesus to explain the parables to them?

The rapture, or more accurately, the "gathering up" of believers is part of their being changed into the SAME KIND OF BODY that the Lord Jesus has.

1 John 3:2 - Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Not at all hard to understand.

Because the parable has NOTHING to do with end times.

I haven't been afraid of any verse or passage. Try me.

The "omission" is found in pre-trib U-turn back to heaven.

No such verses exist, yet many believe that false doctrine. There will be MANY MANY believers totally shocked when they realize that the trib is in full swing and they are still here. Whenever that occurs.

I'll bet the faith of many will be shaken very hard. And that is sad. It doesn't have to be that way.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 21, 2021

Absolutely said:

Ha. Every rapture verse is post trib. But one needs eyes that see and ears to hear.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 21, 2021

What I said:
"""What I would like to see is any verse that clearly indicates that Jesus comes to earth's atmosphere, with all the dead saints from heaven, and gathers up (raptures) all the living believers on earth, resurrects the dead, and changes the living, and then TAKES THEM ALL BACK TO HEAVEN."""

Absolutely said:

Typical copout technique. You know very well you don't have any U-turn verses, so you hide behind the lousy excuse that I will ignore them.

Since I have been begging your pretribbers to provide any such verses, why would I ignore what I'm asking for? You don't make sense.

Yeah, you're one to talk about "methods". See above.

Actually, NO parable is "clear as a bell". Apparently you have no idea why Jesus used parables, huh.

Mark 4:9-13
Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”
Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?

The bold words describe you.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 21, 2021

I said:
"Jesus has TWO "comings" to earth. The first one was about 2,000 years ago, when He was born to Mary in Bethlehem."

lamad said:

Are you suggesting there are 3 Advents or Comings?

#1

neither of these verses mentions ANYTHING about Jesus taking His bride back up to heaven, what I call a U-turn.

#2

Nope, I didn't miss a thing.

However, since the terms "first advent" and "second advent" are common terms among evangelicals, where do you get off by making up some "third coming"?

So, IF IF IF Jesus does resurrect all the dead saints already in heaven and changes all the living believers on earth, AND THEN TAKES THEM ALL BACK TO HEAVEN, what verse actually says this?

cv5 · Apr 21, 2021

When addressing the Church, the terms:

-(our) gathering
-(His) appearing
-(when Christ) appears
2Th 2:1
Col 3:4
1Ti 6:14
2Ti 4:1
2Ti 4:8
Tit 2:13
All of these references pertaining to the rapture. The only audience will be believers.

Whenever the term "return" is used it pertains to the Second Coming to the earth. The only audience will be Israelites (converted and unconverted), and gentiles (converted and unconverted).

Really quite simple and straightforward.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 21, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

I'm trying to make out what you're saying in this post (I did read the whole post; quoting only a portion).

Are you saying:

--that believers when they die are thereafter in Heaven BODILY?? (having a BODY like Jesus' body)

--[OR] that this awaits the point in time when they ("the DEAD IN Christ") are "resurrected" (which means, "to stand again" [on the earth]) which you are saying (for ALL saints of ALL time periods) is at the END of the trib Rev19, before we are [meaning, the "we which are ALIVE and remain" AND "the DEAD IN Christ" (having been raised *first,* before this-->), TOGETHER] are "caught-up / -away / SNATCHED / harpazo'd / raptured" to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR, and so shall we ever be with [G4862 UNIONed-with] the Lord"

And, another question regarding that post... how are you saying that the "10 VirginS" parable "has NOTHING to do with end times"?

(keep in mind I *disagree* with Abs' take on it... I do NOT believe the "10 VirginS" parable speaks of "the MARRIAGE" itself, but rather, "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES," aka the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age [at least its inauguration] and THEIR "ENTRANCE" into THAT... (the "5 VirginS" being those "still-living saints" [having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] who "went in with [G3326 (distinct from G4862 'UNIONed-with,' concerning US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY) - meta - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER")

...if you believe this parable "has NOTHING to do with end times" (bearing in mind that His disciples had just asked Him the Q in Matt24:3 re: "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" which Q was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]"... when the angels will "REAP")... how are you thinking that this Matt25:1-13 passage (being a part of His RESPONSE to their Q) pertains NOTHING to end times??

[both Matt25:1-13 and Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 mention "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" which *IS* the promised and prophesied earthly MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth (see Lk12:36, etc)]

lamad · Apr 21, 2021

Evmur said:

Strange: John shows us the Day of His Wrath (6th seal) starts before the 70th week begins (7th seal). That makes the entire 70th week or as people say, "the tribulation" all the wrath of God.

When we discover the Old Testament plan for the Day as is written that God's plan is to destroy the world and the sinners in in the world, we see that the trumpet judgments certainly fit God beginning to destroy the world and the sinners in the world. There can therefore be no doubt that the trumpets are then inside the Day of the Lord, in the same order John wrote it.

According to your own statement, we are saved from His wrath - so the rapture is just as Paul and John show it: just before wrath or just before the 6th seal start of wrath. It is no mistake then that John SAW the just raptured church in heaven as that great crowd too large to number. Take note, that was written by John in chapter 7, before the 70th week begins. This is one reason I am pretrib: I SEE pretrib in scriptures.

lamad · Apr 21, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

You can ignore His coming FOR His church pretrib - but I suspect it will cost you something.

I counted three found in scripture. I am not afraid to say His coming to Armageddon will be His 3rd coming.

lamad · Apr 21, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Since the church age has been one long period of "tribulation" I must agree with you: since the rapture will END the church age, then the rapture is post - all the tribulation of the church age! ;-)

HOWEVER: the rapture will be pre-70th-week. Count on it! The 70th week is all a time of wrath.

VCO · Apr 21, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

LOL. You sound like a typical teenager, 15 going on 14.

I am 72, and do not like Arguing.

Ask Evmur if he likes to argue.

It is a sign of Christian Maturity.

The Bible is a never-ending supply of GOD's Ammo. I choose when I use it.

VCO · Apr 21, 2021

cv5 said:

When addressing the Church, the terms:

-(our) gathering
-(His) appearing
-(when Christ) appears
2Th 2:1
Col 3:4
1Ti 6:14
2Ti 4:1
2Ti 4:8
Tit 2:13
All of these references pertaining to the rapture. The only audience will be believers.

Whenever the term "return" is used it pertains to the Second Coming to the earth. The only audience will be Israelites (converted and unconverted), and gentiles (converted and unconverted).

Really quite simple and straightforward.

AMEN!

lamad · Apr 21, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

I have pointed out MANY times that by the time Jesus returns at the Second Advent, the VAST MAJORITY of saints, including all from the church age, will already be IN heaven. I will have to agree with this statement. The dead in Christ group will be FAR FAR bigger than those caught up and changed at the rapture. We are talking about maybe 50 generations of believers all at the same place and same time. God will be the spirits of those dead in Christ who have been waiting in heaven WITH HIM to the clouds to call up their bodies from the graves. They will then MEET or JOIN with their body and be complete once again.

Our differences is what happens AFTER the dead and those living are caught up into the air to be with Jesus: WHAT THEN? It is an easy question to answer, Paul and John agree that Jesus will take the church to heaven to wait out His wrath. Jesus AND THE CHURCH will spend the 70th week time IN HEAVEN. Another proof is that we all return with Him as one of heaven's armies.

So, when Jesus returns, the living believers left on earth will be a very SMALL FRACTION of the "Bride of Christ". So MOST of the church will already be in heaven. Sorry, not true: you already said "when Jesus returns:" Paul is clear that Jesus will bring all the dead in Christ WITH HIM when He comes for His bride. Perhaps you should have worded it differently. Yes, they are in heaven, but Jesus brings them (their spirit men and women) with Him to join with their bodies.

There is nothing in the Bible about the wedding occurring in heaven. Sorry, this is a false statement. ONe would have to stretch the scripture to put the marriage anywhere else. It is BEFORE Jesus descends so of course the place is heaven.

19:1 ...I heard a great voice of much people in heaven...
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne
7 ... the marriage of the Lamb is come...
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

This is clear enough for most: the place is heaven. The elders and four beasts and the throne are proof.
When John says the marriage is come - it obvious meaning is RIGHT THEN. Any other meaning would be trying to stretch. From Rev. 1 to here in chapter 19, the time of the first mention of an event is when in John's narrative it takes place - unless it is a prophecy. (There are prophecies given by the elders.)

Therefore, the ONLY reason I can fathom as to why you would make such a statement is because AS WRITTEN these verses prove against a post trib.

I have a suggestion: rather that trying to rearrange John's God Given chronology, why not just change your theory?

FreeGrace2 · Apr 21, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
I have pointed out MANY times that by the time Jesus returns at the Second Advent, the VAST MAJORITY of saints, including all from the church age, will already be IN heaven.

So, when Jesus returns, the living believers left on earth will be a very SMALL FRACTION of the "Bride of Christ". So MOST of the church will already be in heaven.

TheDivineWatermark said:

Always happy to clarify.

--

Click to expand...

No, I'm not. Where do you think the SOULS of believers go when they die? SDA believes in "soul sleep". Nonsense.

Paul said that being "absent from the body" (physical death) means being"face to face" with the Lord. So the souls of believers go to heaven at death. Awaiting their resurrection body, at the Second Advent, when Jesus brings them back to earth.

--[OR]

Click to expand...

There you go.

Jesus was using the Jewish wedding feast to simply teach being prepared. Duh. Nothing about a rapture.

Jesus was teaching about preparedness. Not details of end times.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 21, 2021

lamad said:

If there is such a thing as a pretrib rapture, how in the world could I "ignore" it?? And my smile will be AT LEAST as wide as yours.

However, if you have miscalculated, how will you take the fact that you have sorely misunderstood Scripture?

You are counting things that simply aren't there.

There are 2 advents. Who in this world has ever taught that there are "3 advents of Christ"? Please name any scholar or famous Bible teacher who has.

If the Bible clearly taught that Jesus makes a huge U-turn before the Trib and brings all believers up to heaven, it would be common knowledge that there are "3 advents".

But, since such an idea is hardly common knowledge, and you have no evidence for it, why should anyone believe it?

FreeGrace2 · Apr 21, 2021

lamad said:

There is no Scripture to suggest that the "church age" ends before the Trib. That's just another "construct" required to hold on to the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture. Kinda like your 3 advents idea.

Do you think that God expects His people (believers in Messiah/Jesus) to return to the Law and sacrifices? Most scholars say the GT will have the most intense period of evangelization ever. And obviously there will be a number saved.

You think they will be under the Law and sacrifice????

I count on what the Bible says plainly. You have no evidence for your views.

50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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