50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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FreeGrace2 said:
When Paul mentions "day of the Lord" in v.1
Do I need to provide reading lessons here?
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
It should be quite obvious to anyone competent in the English language that the red words in v.1 is what Paul was referring to in the red words in v.3.
So, from the context, "THAT day" in v.3 refers back to "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". What else could Paul be referring to?
When Paul mentions "day of the Lord" in v.1
Do I need to provide reading lessons here?
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
It should be quite obvious to anyone competent in the English language that the red words in v.1 is what Paul was referring to in the red words in v.3.
So, from the context, "THAT day" in v.3 refers back to "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". What else could Paul be referring to?
I believe I clearly had said "the day OF HIS RESURRECTION" (something to that effect, anyway)
(minus the CAPS or any bolding or underlining or italics or color... <--I suspect the very reason you OVERLOOKED that vital phrase in my original post [under discussion]
)Doubt you wanna go back and actually LOOK at that post of mine, proving this is the case... that I DID communicate it in such a way... but that *you* had overlooked my actual wording.
No, wrong. What you suggest is not obvious at all because it is error. I will repast verses 2 & 3 and do it the way you should have:
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day [that is, the just mentioned day of the Lord] will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
TheDivineWatermark said:
Incorrect.
The word "firstfruit" here is in the SINGULAR.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-20.htm
Since Christ is one Person, the singular makes sense. What DW doesn't want to admit is that what follows that singular "first fruit" is the phrase "THEN those who belong to Him".
It's pretty obvious that Paul was identifying 2 groups of resurrection here. The "first" group is Christ the "first fruit", and the second group is "those who belong to Him".
So DW cannot avoid the problem of Rev 20:5 that clearly states that Trib martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection. That would place them in that second grouping that Paul refers to as "THEN those who belong to Him".
But, sinc DW denies the reality of the Millennium in Rev 20, where 1,000 years is mentioned 5 times, with reference to ending and "are over", there's no use in trying to help him with any facts. His mind appears to be made up already, but without facts.
Incorrect.
The word "firstfruit" here is in the SINGULAR.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-20.htm
Really no big deal. DW is just trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
Since Christ is one Person, the singular makes sense. What DW doesn't want to admit is that what follows that singular "first fruit" is the phrase "THEN those who belong to Him".
It's pretty obvious that Paul was identifying 2 groups of resurrection here. The "first" group is Christ the "first fruit", and the second group is "those who belong to Him".
So DW cannot avoid the problem of Rev 20:5 that clearly states that Trib martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection. That would place them in that second grouping that Paul refers to as "THEN those who belong to Him".
But, sinc DW denies the reality of the Millennium in Rev 20, where 1,000 years is mentioned 5 times, with reference to ending and "are over", there's no use in trying to help him with any facts. His mind appears to be made up already, but without facts.
When you add in v.1, you know - context, your "analysis" falls apart.
btw, dotL can be the very day He returns, or the whole ball of wax, including the very day He returns.
So, Paul mentions "dotL" in 2 verses, but both are in reference to v.1 and "the coming of our Lord".
That should be obvious to those fluent in English. But apparently it isn't so clear to some. Those with an agenda.
Verse 3a ('THAT day') is referring to the one that was falsely purported to be "ALREADY HERE / ALREADY PRESENT" (NOT the things in v.1!)
You were (and have been) skipping back OVER AND PAST v.2 to ascertain what v.3a is speaking of (GRAMMAR FAIL, for one thing)...
and you are INCORRECTLY EQUATING the item being falsely purported in v.2 TO THAT of PAUL's Subject in v.1 (NOT THE SAME ITEM!), which is WHY you are skipping back OVER AND PAST v.2 when ascertaining what v.3a is speaking of... (and why you are MISSING the point that Paul is ACTUALLY CONVEYING in this text... )
[I explained "at what point" the DOTL *ARRIVES* to unfold upon the earth, in my last post... and it does NOT *ARRIVE* at the point-in-time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth / RETURN / Rev19... NO!]
Oh, yeah. That's real clear, huh.
Correct. I HAVE already LOOKED at those "posts of yours" and I find them very difficult to follow, or "something to that effect". You seem to have a hard time making your points clear and concise.Doubt you wanna go back and actually LOOK at that post of mine, proving this is the case... that I DID communicate it in such a way... but that *you* had overlooked my actual wording.
So I'm not interested in trying to figure out what you are trying to say.
If you can "get it together" and make a clear, concise and undersandable post, I'll look forward to that.
FreeGrace2 said:
Prove it then.
If Paul and John "already have" then just QUOTE the verses.
But to say "that is the way it is written" is nothing but a cop-out and a total failure to prove anything.
Anyone could say that about anything they want. Means nothing.
What does mean something is what the Word of God actually says.
So, show us some proof. Not platitudes or excuses.
Prove it then.
What in the world kind of answer is this??
If Paul and John "already have" then just QUOTE the verses.
But to say "that is the way it is written" is nothing but a cop-out and a total failure to prove anything.
Anyone could say that about anything they want. Means nothing.
What does mean something is what the Word of God actually says.
So, show us some proof. Not platitudes or excuses.
No, I'm not just making a mountain out of a molehill.
I'm talking about what I'd said in another post about His fulfilling "FIRSTFRUIT" (Lev23:10-12) on the VERY DAY of His RESURRECTION (John 20:17)...
...and how this is DISTINCT FROM the SECOND MENTION of "firstfruit" in that Lev 23 chpt (v.17) and how THAT verse correlates with what is said in Rev14:4 re: "the 144,000" ['firstfruit' ALSO IN THE SINGULAR
] (so... connected with Lev23:17's "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"[<--which ain't US / 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'... NO!]).This point ^ has to do with "but EACH in his own RANK" (1Cor15:23... the topic under discussion)
[I think some ppl think Paul was merely given the role of something like a garbage man, simply sweeping up the dirt that fell off of ppl, or something...
(not an APOSTLE, or anything like that...) ]You're the one who was going on about "what happened after He was BURIED... for those three days".
I was NOT speaking of THAT... but you ASSUMED since I mentioned "HEAVEN" that I must have meant "while His body was BURIED" when what I ACTUALLY SAID (and supplied the SCRIPTURE REFERENCE for what I was speaking of!) had to do with what happened AFTER HE STOOD ON THE GROUND and spoke to MM (the reference given!)
If I'm not mistaken (about what you two are presently discussing), he already did that, back on Page 38, Post #742 (about the 3rd paragraph, or so):
Post #742 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4535977
You have either GOT to be joking...
OR you have somehow gotten ME mixed up with ANOTHER POSTER (like T7t7 ??) who does NOT believe there will be a literal Millennium (per the numerous times it is mentioned there in Rev20... not to mention referenced in other passages).
I have never denied there will indeed be a Millennium (Millennial Kingdom age following Christ's "RETURN" to the earth)... if you've actually read my posts, I write about that in ABUNDANCE.
I think you're just trying to take my words "ending" and "are over" which were IN REFERENCE SPECIFICALLY to the "PANGS" (that unfold OVER TIME, according to Jesus [note: NOT from the first century!! as some suppose, but PARALLEL to the time the SEALS will unfold (those ARE the beginning of birth pangs / EQUATED! and Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says the future aspects of the Book "must come to pass IN QUICKENESS [NOUN]"<--NOT "long term"!!)]), which "BPs" END at the point of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19, and you are twisting it in your mind (or for the benefit of others?) to INSTEAD have meant "the end of EVERYTHING". NO.
Please read my posts in the CONTEXT of how I've given them... I was speaking of the "BIRTH PANGS" that Jesus spoke of (and Paul then echoed, saying "the DOTL" ARRIVES *like* the INITIAL one comes UPON a woman...! 1Th5:2-3), which is NOT speaking of what will occur in a split-second MOMENT of time at Christ's "RETURN," but unfold upon the earth OVER THE COURSE OF SOME TIME leading UP TO His "RETURN," see... (same in both Jesus' and Paul's points)
[THAT ^ is the time-period the false conveyors purported "IS HERE / IS PRESENT"]
Howdy FreeGrace2. I can PROVE IT to someone WHO is Born Again.
Genuine FAITH is in the HEART, and NOT in what lies between your EARS.
NO POINT in Proving it to someone who is not Born Again.
Howdy FreeGrace2,
I can Prove the beyond a shadow of a doubt, the rapture to anybody that is Born Again, without that it is a excercise in futility. Here is why:
1 Cor. 2:6-16, NIV
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c]
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ.
That is truly what I BELIEVE IN MY HEART, and NOTHING CAN SWAY ME from that TRUTH.
By your phrase "the whole ball of wax" you simply mean:
--His Second Coming to the earth, AND
--the entire earthly Millennial Kingdom
We AGREE these are INCLUDED in that phrase, BUT
it STARTS back at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 its ARRIVAL]"... the ones Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse (Matt24:4[-8] / Mk13:5[-8], which are just the "BEGINNNING OF" them, not the entirety of them).
Its *ARRIVAL* point in time is NOT at Christ's Second Coming Rev19... but way back at "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" (which ARE the "SEALS" [which will be existing in the "7 tribulation years" / the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period])... Paul, in 1Th5:2-3 acknowledges that the Thessalonians "KNOW WELL" the manner of its ARRIVAL... and in 2Th2:2 is going to go over his caution to the Thessalonians not to be convinced by anyone purporting / alleging that THAT IS WHAT *IS HERE / IS PRESENT* (Not Christ Himself / nor His RETURN / nor "our Rapture" event--NONE of those were what the false conveyors were purporting... per v.2's info / wording / what it SAYS IN THE TEXT, and MEANS [per other passages elsewhere, as to how it's DEFINED])
That ^ is not the point in time when "the man of sin be revealed".
Since you don't like to read my posts about "at what point in time he WILL be revealed," I recommend that you look at all related passages, examine them carefully over a fairly good stretch of time, to see what scripture itself informs us about "at what point in time" that will take place...
...because it is NOT at the 2Th2:4 point in time (tho that indeed WILL take place, as prophesied)...
...just recall that Paul is covering ALL SEVEN YEARS of the trib [aside from his other points], in this 1&2chpt CONTEXT
...(as do all of the OTHER related sections of scripture, also: [re: the 7 yrs-->] its BEGINNING[/ARRIVAL]... its MIDDLE... its END...
EACH of the related passages of scripture cover this in SAME WAY, meaning, Revelation does... Matthew 24 does... Daniel 9:27a/b/c[26b] does... 2Thess2:3b-9a does... etc... EACH also having the SAME connecting themes at those very points! (i.e. at its BEGINNING... at its MIDDLE... at its END [of the ENTIRE SEVEN YEARS]... 2Th2:4 [your verse] is simply its MIDDLE point... not the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" of him [2:9a], the man of sin, "IN HIS TIME" [2:6b,7b,8a]
)Your claim in response is Dishonest, as pinocchio's nose grows.
You have been refuted at every corner regarding your claim of a pre-trib rapture
Rev 14 (Sickle Harvest) that you claim is a pre-trib rapture, is nothing more than the second coming lass day resurrection, with a parallel teaching in the wheat tares harvest by the Angel's, that takes place at the end of the world
Post Trib, (Immediately After The Tribulation)
Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You "Falsely" promote Revelation 14:14-19 below as a pre-trib rapture, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) Last Day Resurrection In Final Judgement, At The End Of The World
the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Revelation 14:14-19KJV
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Matthew 13:37-42KJV
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.