50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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The word "fire" is used of judgment throughout Scripture. So yes, it's not a boy scout camp out. When He returns at the Second Advent, and sets up His Millennial rule, He will be JUDGING THE NATIONS. That's what's meant.
No, I UNDERSTAND how the Bible uses "fire", that's all.
You deny the truth of Rev 20. It's very clear.
That's what I said!! Fire is judgment.
That's what I said!! fire IS judgment.
No, not "immediately" after the tribulation. But you deny the truth of Rev 20, so I can't help you any further.
Yes, that will certainly occur, but Not at the return of Christ. Again, you simply deny the truth of Rev 20.
Yes He will. But not on your warped time schedule.
Apparently you think Peter was disagreeing with the apostle John regarding Rev 20.
And all this is AFTER Rev 20, which is about a 1,000 year rule by Christ on earth.
This is the Second Advent.
Why in the world would you quote ANYTHING from Rev 20 since you reject the bulk of it??
No, I UNDERSTAND how the Bible uses "fire", that's all.
You deny the truth of Rev 20. It's very clear.
That's what I said!! Fire is judgment.
That's what I said!! fire IS judgment.
No, not "immediately" after the tribulation. But you deny the truth of Rev 20, so I can't help you any further.
Yes, that will certainly occur, but Not at the return of Christ. Again, you simply deny the truth of Rev 20.
Yes He will. But not on your warped time schedule.
Apparently you think Peter was disagreeing with the apostle John regarding Rev 20.
And all this is AFTER Rev 20, which is about a 1,000 year rule by Christ on earth.
This is the Second Advent.
Why in the world would you quote ANYTHING from Rev 20 since you reject the bulk of it??
FreeGrace2 said:
The "day" is real. The context is clear about that.
I really can't help your extremely poor reading of Scripture. But the words are clear enough.
When Paul mentions "day of the Lord" in v.1 and then says "that day will not occur until..." he's referring to the REAL event known as the Second Advent, when He returns to END the Tribulation and set up His Millennial kingdom, which you reject.
The "day" is real. The context is clear about that.
I really can't help your extremely poor reading of Scripture. But the words are clear enough.
When Paul mentions "day of the Lord" in v.1 and then says "that day will not occur until..." he's referring to the REAL event known as the Second Advent, when He returns to END the Tribulation and set up His Millennial kingdom, which you reject.
I don't even know what you are asking. There is no "rule". That's just a real silly question. And no one has said that "He cannot come" anywhere. Where are you getting your strange ideas?
When Jesus comes, He comes with all the dead saints from Adam on, and meeting the living saints IN THE CLOUDS, where He resurrects the bodies of the dead saints and changes the bodies of the living saints.
Since you openly deny the clear truth of Scripture, it doesn't matter what you remain unconvinced of.
When Jesus comes, He comes with all the dead saints from Adam on, and meeting the living saints IN THE CLOUDS, where He resurrects the bodies of the dead saints and changes the bodies of the living saints.
Since you openly deny the clear truth of Scripture, it doesn't matter what you remain unconvinced of.
OK, let's be a bit more clear (and honest) here. There is NOT any verse that says that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers back up to heaven.
If there is, quit stalling, and quote the verse, for crying out loud.
Then quit stalling and provide such evidence.
Doesn't matter what YOU "elevate to status of boilerplate doctrine", it's STILL a false doctrine.
btw, there is nothing in that verse (or any other) that says that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers back up to heaven.
iow, there are NO verses that teach a HUGE U-turn by Jesus.
But to your so-called proof text, apparently you have forgotten, or never learned about Israel in Egypt. When God poured out His wrath and judgment upon Egypt, where the Jews were living, they were spared all of God's judgment on Egypt.
But I have to guess that your view of God is that He isn't capable of protecting His own people while pouring out His wrath on the whole earth. Just too big a job for Him, huh. That's a pretty pitiful view of God, imo.
If there is, quit stalling, and quote the verse, for crying out loud.
Then quit stalling and provide such evidence.
Doesn't matter what YOU "elevate to status of boilerplate doctrine", it's STILL a false doctrine.
btw, there is nothing in that verse (or any other) that says that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers back up to heaven.
iow, there are NO verses that teach a HUGE U-turn by Jesus.
But to your so-called proof text, apparently you have forgotten, or never learned about Israel in Egypt. When God poured out His wrath and judgment upon Egypt, where the Jews were living, they were spared all of God's judgment on Egypt.
But I have to guess that your view of God is that He isn't capable of protecting His own people while pouring out His wrath on the whole earth. Just too big a job for Him, huh. That's a pretty pitiful view of God, imo.
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I don't "insist" on anything. I DO ask for any verse that clearly states that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers back up to heaven.
All you pre-tribbers have is a construct, built upon the flimsy conflation of cobbled together verses, none of which say what you believe.
Nonsense. This is just an admission that you know you don't have any such verse.
Yet, you repeatedly quote from 1 Thess 4:13-17 as a pre-trib verse. So why did Paul seemingly forget to include the U-turn?
And, while we're at it, why did any author seemingly forget to mention the big U-turn in ANY of the so-called pre-trib rapture verses?
There sure are a lot of verses that could have and should have mentioned it, if that is to happen.
All you pre-tribbers have is a construct, built upon the flimsy conflation of cobbled together verses, none of which say what you believe.
(ponder what I put in my last post [#793], and perhaps you'll see why it's not worded in the Bible in such a "spelled out way that FrGr2 is requiring!" 
[RARE is the "prophecy" that ever IS!! (/ WAS!!)])
[RARE is the "prophecy" that ever IS!! (/ WAS!!)])
Yet, you repeatedly quote from 1 Thess 4:13-17 as a pre-trib verse. So why did Paul seemingly forget to include the U-turn?
And, while we're at it, why did any author seemingly forget to mention the big U-turn in ANY of the so-called pre-trib rapture verses?
There sure are a lot of verses that could have and should have mentioned it, if that is to happen.
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FreeGrace2 said:
I thought all believers knew. When Jesus died, He didn't go to heaven. He went to Hades and preached to the spirits in prison.
Since you have rejected the clear truth of Rev 20, there is no point in explaining any Scripture to you. Your mind has been made up and you don't want the facts.
I thought all believers knew. When Jesus died, He didn't go to heaven. He went to Hades and preached to the spirits in prison.
Since you have rejected the clear truth of Rev 20, there is no point in explaining any Scripture to you. Your mind has been made up and you don't want the facts.
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The church raptures after the great tribulation. Sorry, I know you don't like that, but that's what the Bible says.
After the falling away of the church and man of sin revealed the day of Christ and our gathering to Him will come.
By the time the the anti-Christ is revealed he will already be proclaiming himself to be God. The mark of the beast will already be in effect. The great tribulation will already be happening before the rapture happens.
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
After the falling away of the church and man of sin revealed the day of Christ and our gathering to Him will come.
By the time the the anti-Christ is revealed he will already be proclaiming himself to be God. The mark of the beast will already be in effect. The great tribulation will already be happening before the rapture happens.
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Rev. 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Please take note that at this time in John's narrative, he has not yet started the 70th week, and especially has not arrived at the days of Great tribulation Jesus spoke of, that would come after the abomination. Notice that the beheaded (from the days of GT) only begin to show up in heaven in Rev. 15. Notice that God's warning not to take the mark is in chapter 14, showing us that even at that time in John's narrative the days of GT Jesus spoke of have not started. Therefore, the GT in verse 14 above is certainly not meaning the same days of GT Jesus spoke of.
Ellicott's Commentary: They are those who come, not all at once, but gradually. The saints of God are continually passing into the unseen world, and taking their place among the spirits of just men made perfect.
J.F.B. Commentary: including also retrospectively all the tribulation which the saints of all ages have had to pass through.
Gill's Commentary: "the great tribulation", out of which they came, is not to be restrained to any particular time of trouble, but includes all that has been, is, or shall be; as all the afflictions of the saints under the Old Testament; from righteous Abel to Zechariah; and all the troubles of the people of God in the times of the Maccabees, Hebrews 11:35; all the persecutions of the Christians by the Jews, at the first publication of the Gospel...
Adam Clarke Commentary: Persecutions of every kind.
Coffman Commentary: the words "they that came are translated from the present middle participle, meaning they continue to come."[52] Bruce translated this, "These are the comers.[53] This positively identifies the "coming" of these white-robed saints w dispensation. "The whole history of the church is a time of tribulation.
Charles Box Commentary: They are coming out of great tribulation. "Coming out of the great tribulation" is a continuing thing throughout the Christian age. They were washed in the blood and thus can now stand in God"s presence.
Greek Testament Critical Exegetical Commentary: I would rather understand it of the whole sum of the trials of the saints of God, viewed by the Elder as now complete, and designated by this emphatic and general name: q. d. “all that tribulation”)
Bengel Commentary : It must indicate generally the troubles of human life." What else is this great tribulation than all men's pains and labour on the earth, which God has cursed, and the collected sorrows which have been brought on the human family by the fall of Adam?
Please take note that at this time in John's narrative, he has not yet started the 70th week, and especially has not arrived at the days of Great tribulation Jesus spoke of, that would come after the abomination. Notice that the beheaded (from the days of GT) only begin to show up in heaven in Rev. 15. Notice that God's warning not to take the mark is in chapter 14, showing us that even at that time in John's narrative the days of GT Jesus spoke of have not started. Therefore, the GT in verse 14 above is certainly not meaning the same days of GT Jesus spoke of.
Ellicott's Commentary: They are those who come, not all at once, but gradually. The saints of God are continually passing into the unseen world, and taking their place among the spirits of just men made perfect.
J.F.B. Commentary: including also retrospectively all the tribulation which the saints of all ages have had to pass through.
Gill's Commentary: "the great tribulation", out of which they came, is not to be restrained to any particular time of trouble, but includes all that has been, is, or shall be; as all the afflictions of the saints under the Old Testament; from righteous Abel to Zechariah; and all the troubles of the people of God in the times of the Maccabees, Hebrews 11:35; all the persecutions of the Christians by the Jews, at the first publication of the Gospel...
Adam Clarke Commentary: Persecutions of every kind.
Coffman Commentary: the words "they that came are translated from the present middle participle, meaning they continue to come."[52] Bruce translated this, "These are the comers.[53] This positively identifies the "coming" of these white-robed saints w dispensation. "The whole history of the church is a time of tribulation.
Charles Box Commentary: They are coming out of great tribulation. "Coming out of the great tribulation" is a continuing thing throughout the Christian age. They were washed in the blood and thus can now stand in God"s presence.
Greek Testament Critical Exegetical Commentary: I would rather understand it of the whole sum of the trials of the saints of God, viewed by the Elder as now complete, and designated by this emphatic and general name: q. d. “all that tribulation”)
Bengel Commentary : It must indicate generally the troubles of human life." What else is this great tribulation than all men's pains and labour on the earth, which God has cursed, and the collected sorrows which have been brought on the human family by the fall of Adam?
Hey your catching on, Matthew 24 does have the (Rapture) and it comes "Immediately After The Tribulation"
Matthew 24:29-3+KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
No.
On the day of the Lord when numerous things happen: rapture, resurrection, destruction of the wicked, etc. It's the end of the world.
2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Jesus describes His coming like the flood in the days of Noah. The saved will go with Christ, the wicked will perish. Your pre-tribulation rapture model doesn't leave room for anything else to happen after the return of Christ - meaning it doesn't make sense. It's Biblically inaccurate.
Matthew 24:37-39
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
On the day of the Lord when numerous things happen: rapture, resurrection, destruction of the wicked, etc. It's the end of the world.
2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Jesus describes His coming like the flood in the days of Noah. The saved will go with Christ, the wicked will perish. Your pre-tribulation rapture model doesn't leave room for anything else to happen after the return of Christ - meaning it doesn't make sense. It's Biblically inaccurate.
Matthew 24:37-39
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
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We are waiting for this: The very conspicuous visible return of Jesus in glory, which everyone sees. His appearance.
We are not waiting for something before this.
Rom 8
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed
Col 3
3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
2 Thess1
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels
Titus 2
13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ,
1 Cor 1
6 In this way, the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you,
7 so that you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We are not waiting for something before this.
Rom 8
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed
Col 3
3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
2 Thess1
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels
Titus 2
13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ,
1 Cor 1
6 In this way, the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you,
7 so that you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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The traditional teaching of Daniel's 70 weeks being 490 years is a fabricated lie
Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?
Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.
If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written
(Four hundred and ninety years), simple
Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.
Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;
Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.
Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weekswere fulfilled.
Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal future weeks or 490 days.
When the call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period.
62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the Antichrist who stops the building.
The 70th literal week will see the antichrist revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.
The 3.5 year tribulation has started.
Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?
Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.
If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written
(Four hundred and ninety years), simple
Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.
Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;
Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.
Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weekswere fulfilled.
Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal future weeks or 490 days.
When the call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period.
62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the Antichrist who stops the building.
The 70th literal week will see the antichrist revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.
The 3.5 year tribulation has started.
Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
That would mean God was mistaken when He showed John this say final "7" would be 7 years, divided in the middle and proven by half the week being 1260 days, or 42 each 30 day months, or 3 1/2 years. Sorry, but I am going to go with John here. It is going to be a 7 year period of time. Have you ever read Sir Robert Anderson's book, the "Coming Prince?"