50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Runningman's words / posts:
--"People were alleging the day of Christ had already come." Post #524 (pg27) - to which T7t7 gave an "AGREE"
--"The false conveyors were saying the day of Christ (return of Christ) is at hand." Post #502 (pg26) - to which T7t7 gave an "AGREE"
@Truth7t7 , do you even KNOW what it is you are AGREEING with?? ( ^ two entirely distinct things! ^ )
It doesn't seem so to me.
Just sayin'...
--"People were alleging the day of Christ had already come." Post #524 (pg27) - to which T7t7 gave an "AGREE"
--"The false conveyors were saying the day of Christ (return of Christ) is at hand." Post #502 (pg26) - to which T7t7 gave an "AGREE"
@Truth7t7 , do you even KNOW what it is you are AGREEING with?? ( ^ two entirely distinct things! ^ )
It doesn't seem so to me.
Just sayin'...
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Try again... with the understanding that - because it is Perfect Indicative - it indicates a kind of action ('perfected') - which is operative on the 'action' of the definition of the word.
From the Strong's G1764 definition:
"to place on hand"
"be at hand"
"present"
This word 'present' does not mean "in the current time" (versus 'past' or 'future') - it means "here" (versus "not here").
The 'core' meaning of this word has absolutely nothing to do with time - that is, with regard to time as a reference; rather, it has to do with the availability of [something].
If I place a tool within reach so that I may at any moment reach out and take it and use it - this is the idea being conveyed.
Thus, the tool is "on hand" - it is available for use.
In the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:2, it is referring to the "availability" of 'the day of Christ' (to occur).
In the context of the passage, it is suggesting that 'the day of Christ' is not [even] available (to occur) [yet].
From the Strong's G1764 definition:
"to place on hand"
"be at hand"
"present"
This word 'present' does not mean "in the current time" (versus 'past' or 'future') - it means "here" (versus "not here").
The 'core' meaning of this word has absolutely nothing to do with time - that is, with regard to time as a reference; rather, it has to do with the availability of [something].
If I place a tool within reach so that I may at any moment reach out and take it and use it - this is the idea being conveyed.
Thus, the tool is "on hand" - it is available for use.
In the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:2, it is referring to the "availability" of 'the day of Christ' (to occur).
In the context of the passage, it is suggesting that 'the day of Christ' is not [even] available (to occur) [yet].
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"IS PRESENT" or "IS HERE"... (is "ALREADY HERE")... what are you seeing as different between these two ideas?
PERFECT TENSE - "ACTION COMPLETED at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST (●) with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT (▬►). In certain contexts the results are PERMANENT.""
[distinct from "is AT HAND / is NEAR" (i.e. upcoming but NOT YET "HERE")]
Re: G1764 (v.2) enistémi / enestēken ( "From en and histemi " ) -
[quoting... re: the word in v.2 - ]
"The word ενεστηκεν is the 3rd person single form of the verb marked similar below. Its tense is perfect (which indicates a present-tense report of an action that has been completed but has effects in the now...)"
[and]
"The perfect tense describes a present condition or action that started to occur at some time in the past and has since been repeated or continued."
[and]
[--re: histemi with "en" ('enistemi/enestēken'--the word in v.2 - ]
"Together with the common preposition εν (en), meaning in: the verb ενιστημι (enistemi), literally meaning to put or place in, but in practice indicating the commencement of something (like a situation or condition) or entering into something (like a job or function). This word has no real English equivalent. In Greek grammar it denoted the present and present perfect tenses, so our verb also has the meaning of "to be now" and the participle may mean "the present [situation]." This verb is used 7 times; [...]"
[end quoting]
____________
I disagree with your take on it, GaryA, and remain unconvinced of your viewpoint. = )
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No. You were saying the text said "is at hand" (as though NOT YET PRESENT, but UPCOMING); but that's not what the text is conveying... Instead, it is conveying "[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (meaning, "HAS ALREADY ARRIVED at some point IN THE PAST, and CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT"... which is decidedly NOT the point you had been making! 
)
)
Where the [Greek] 'tense' of the word is concerned, 'the day of Christ' is not what is being "continued on" after having "arrived"...
Rather, the "availability" of 'the day of Christ' - having been "put in place" - ready to "take place" - is what is involved.
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Again, see the LISTING of its SEVEN occurrences (at the right side):
https://biblehub.com/greek/1764.htm
Notice that in 6 of its 7 occurrences, it is in the "PERFECT tense" (represented by the "R" in the BLUE above the verses at RIGHT)... and translated in those six verses as (the word) "PRESENT"... (none of these "PERFECT TENSE" verses mean "potentially PRESENT" and our verse under discussion is "PERFECT INDICATIVE")...
...with only ONE occurrence being in the "FUTURE tense," 2Tim3:1 ("WILL BE PRESENT")
https://biblehub.com/greek/1764.htm
Notice that in 6 of its 7 occurrences, it is in the "PERFECT tense" (represented by the "R" in the BLUE above the verses at RIGHT)... and translated in those six verses as (the word) "PRESENT"... (none of these "PERFECT TENSE" verses mean "potentially PRESENT"
and our verse under discussion is "PERFECT INDICATIVE")......with only ONE occurrence being in the "FUTURE tense," 2Tim3:1 ("WILL BE PRESENT")
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Your Claim Is False
Same conclusion in a parallel teaching, (I Never Knew You) (I Know You Not)
Matthew 7:21-23KJV
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The 5 foolish virgins were "unsaved" (I Know You Not), it's that simple
Matthew 25:11-12KJV
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Same conclusion in a parallel teaching, (I Never Knew You) (I Know You Not)
Matthew 7:21-23KJV
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The 5 foolish virgins were "unsaved" (I Know You Not), it's that simple
Matthew 25:11-12KJV
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
What are you [now] saying that the TEXT of v.2 actually SAYS (in view of the "PERFECT TENSE" that that word is):
--"[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS AT HAND" (not yet present, but perhaps soon will be); OR
--"[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (ALREADY STARTED at some point IN THE PAST, and CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT)
Which are YOU saying the TEXT says??
I encourage the same... as always!
(I supplied 3 or so, in this very thread, and others like it!! I ALSO said that the FIRST SEVEN ENGLISH translations, BEFORE the kjv existed, translated the word in v.3 as "a departing" or "departure"... which is a PERFECTLY LEGIT translation! [since that is the most basic meaning of the word... with no outside "ideas" INJECTED ] )
--"[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS AT HAND" (not yet present, but perhaps soon will be); OR
--"[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (ALREADY STARTED at some point IN THE PAST, and CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT)
Which are YOU saying the TEXT says??
I encourage the same... as always!
(I supplied 3 or so, in this very thread, and others like it!! I ALSO said that the FIRST SEVEN ENGLISH translations, BEFORE the kjv existed, translated the word in v.3 as "a departing" or "departure"... which is a PERFECTLY LEGIT translation! [since that is the most basic meaning of the word... with no outside "ideas" INJECTED
] )
Do you believe (Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven?
What are you [now] saying that the TEXT of v.2 actually SAYS (in view of the "PERFECT TENSE" that that word is):
--"[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS AT HAND" (not yet present, but perhaps soon will be); OR
--"[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (ALREADY STARTED at some point IN THE PAST, and CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT)
Which are YOU saying the TEXT says??
I encourage the same... as always!
(I supplied 3 or so, in this very thread, and others like it!! I ALSO said that the FIRST SEVEN ENGLISH translations, BEFORE the kjv existed, translated the word in v.3 as "a departing" or "departure"... which is a PERFECTLY LEGIT translation! [since that is the most basic meaning of the word... with no outside "ideas" INJECTED ] )
--"[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS AT HAND" (not yet present, but perhaps soon will be); OR
--"[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (ALREADY STARTED at some point IN THE PAST, and CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT)
Which are YOU saying the TEXT says??
I encourage the same... as always!
(I supplied 3 or so, in this very thread, and others like it!! I ALSO said that the FIRST SEVEN ENGLISH translations, BEFORE the kjv existed, translated the word in v.3 as "a departing" or "departure"... which is a PERFECTLY LEGIT translation! [since that is the most basic meaning of the word... with no outside "ideas" INJECTED
] )
Gary.......from what I can see here there is not one single instance of the term being used in the manner you espouse. Somebody tell me that I'm wrong. As for your theory that the term has nothing to do with time I find that to be ludicrous. When applicable the concept of a series of events dependent upon a time stream is right there included in the verse.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1764&t=NKJV
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1764&t=NKJV
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So you are saying that the Thessalonians are "shaken" and "troubled" because they thought that TDOTL was "available"? Absolute hogwash.
Did you forget about v.1? Paul is clearing up the matter of "our gathering to Him". The Thessalonians thought they had missed this "gathering". In terms of time the event had already passed. Paul says no......the event has not passed (in terms of time) it is yet future (in terms of time).
So simple so straightforward so obvious. Honestly I find the failure of supposed Christians to comprehend these simple passages to be extremely disturbing and concerning.
Did you forget about v.1? Paul is clearing up the matter of "our gathering to Him". The Thessalonians thought they had missed this "gathering". In terms of time the event had already passed. Paul says no......the event has not passed (in terms of time) it is yet future (in terms of time).
So simple so straightforward so obvious. Honestly I find the failure of supposed Christians to comprehend these simple passages to be extremely disturbing and concerning.
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It is concerning, but at this point I'm thinking there is some intentional deflecting going on.
In any case the essence of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 says that Jesus is coming back after the apostasy of the church and the man of sin is revealed. The church will not be departing in a rapture at any point before the great tribulation.
Now that you understand this truth you need to rewire your thinking on the rapture.
In any case the essence of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 says that Jesus is coming back after the apostasy of the church and the man of sin is revealed. The church will not be departing in a rapture at any point before the great tribulation.
Now that you understand this truth you need to rewire your thinking on the rapture.
All I'm going to ask you in this post is,
which of the two sentences at the top (quotes from two of your posts) do you say the TEXT SAYS, because the text does not say BOTH.
Which ONE are you saying it is (from the parts in bold)?
Can you tell me which?
https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm
which of the two sentences at the top (quotes from two of your posts) do you say the TEXT SAYS, because the text does not say BOTH.
Which ONE are you saying it is (from the parts in bold)?
Can you tell me which?
https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm
From my Post #503 -
(#503) https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534043
(#503) https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534043
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What I said stands and I approve of what I said, but the way you're representing what I said is false.
Pay careful attention to the underlined words in the verses below.
The deceivers were alleging the day of Christ is at hand.
Paul says to not be shaken in mind or troubled because if that day is at hand then it would mean the apostasy of the church is here and the man of sin is revealed. That's why he's telling them to not be troubled.
Does that make sense now? I don't think this is a particularly complicated set of passages. I'm starting to think you'll reject anything that opposes the pre-trib rapture.
2 Thess. 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Pay careful attention to the underlined words in the verses below.
The deceivers were alleging the day of Christ is at hand.
Paul says to not be shaken in mind or troubled because if that day is at hand then it would mean the apostasy of the church is here and the man of sin is revealed. That's why he's telling them to not be troubled.
Does that make sense now? I don't think this is a particularly complicated set of passages. I'm starting to think you'll reject anything that opposes the pre-trib rapture.
2 Thess. 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Gotcha...
I disagree based on the abundance of evidences I had supplied, in that, the text itself states "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"
Perfect Tense -
"ACTION COMPLETED at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST (●) with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT (▬►). In certain contexts the results are PERMANENT."
... and in this case, it is "perfect INDICATIVE"
https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm
The false conveyors were telling them "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (that is, ALREADY STARTED at some point IN THE PAST, and still going on PRESENTLY...)
Now WHY would "false conveyors" (deceivers) be SAYING THAT??
I disagree based on the abundance of evidences I had supplied, in that, the text itself states "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"
Perfect Tense -
"ACTION COMPLETED at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST (●) with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT (▬►). In certain contexts the results are PERMANENT."
... and in this case, it is "perfect INDICATIVE"
https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm
The false conveyors were telling them "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (that is, ALREADY STARTED at some point IN THE PAST, and still going on PRESENTLY...)
Now WHY would "false conveyors" (deceivers) be SAYING THAT??
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[LISTING from BibleHub]
New International Version
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
New Living Translation
Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.
English Standard Version
not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Berean Study Bible
not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.
New American Standard Bible
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1995
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1977
that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Amplified Bible
not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.
Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
Contemporary English Version
not to be easily upset or disturbed by people who claim the Lord has already come. They may say they heard this directly from the Holy Spirit, or from someone else, or even that they read it in one of our letters.
Good News Translation
not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't get upset right away or alarmed when someone claims that we said through some spirit, conversation, or letter that the day of the Lord has already come.
International Standard Version
not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.
NET Bible
not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
New King James Version
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
New Heart English Bible
not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of the Lord had come.
World English Bible
not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Christ had come.
A Faithful Version
That you not be quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled--neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as if from us, saying that the day of Christ is present.
Darby Bible Translation
that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.
English Revised Version
to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is now present;
Literal Standard Version
that you are not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the Day of the LORD has arrived;
Berean Literal Bible
for you not quickly to be shaken in mind, nor to be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if by us, as that day of the Lord is present.
Young's Literal Translation
that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That you would not be soon shaken in your minds, neither be troubled, either from word, nor from a spirit, neither from an epistle that is as if from us, namely, that, “Behold, The Day of our Lord has arrived.”
Godbey New Testament
that you be not suddenly shaken from your mind, nor disturbed, whether by a spirit, or through word, or a letter as by us, as that the day of the Lord has come.
Weymouth New Testament
not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled--either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us--through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here.
Worrell New Testament
that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has set in.
New International Version
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
New Living Translation
Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.
English Standard Version
not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Berean Study Bible
not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.
New American Standard Bible
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1995
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1977
that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Amplified Bible
not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.
Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
Contemporary English Version
not to be easily upset or disturbed by people who claim the Lord has already come. They may say they heard this directly from the Holy Spirit, or from someone else, or even that they read it in one of our letters.
Good News Translation
not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't get upset right away or alarmed when someone claims that we said through some spirit, conversation, or letter that the day of the Lord has already come.
International Standard Version
not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.
NET Bible
not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
New King James Version
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
New Heart English Bible
not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of the Lord had come.
World English Bible
not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Christ had come.
A Faithful Version
That you not be quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled--neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as if from us, saying that the day of Christ is present.
Darby Bible Translation
that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.
English Revised Version
to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is now present;
Literal Standard Version
that you are not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the Day of the LORD has arrived;
Berean Literal Bible
for you not quickly to be shaken in mind, nor to be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if by us, as that day of the Lord is present.
Young's Literal Translation
that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That you would not be soon shaken in your minds, neither be troubled, either from word, nor from a spirit, neither from an epistle that is as if from us, namely, that, “Behold, The Day of our Lord has arrived.”
Godbey New Testament
that you be not suddenly shaken from your mind, nor disturbed, whether by a spirit, or through word, or a letter as by us, as that the day of the Lord has come.
Weymouth New Testament
not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled--either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us--through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here.
Worrell New Testament
that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has set in.
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