Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[Aidan1]

if so then answer me this, 1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;"
is this the Pastoral Gift, yes or No?

PICJAG, 101G.

What you understand under pastoral gift?

 

[101G]

Sorry brother, neither 1.Cor. 12,8 nor 1. Cor.12,28 is talking about woman can be Pastor/leader/eldest of the church.
You have to put your meaning into the text. But you cant get it out of the text.

ARE you sure, as I asked what are the Pastoral work? lets see, Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."
NOW,
1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;"

now a word of Wisdom is "UNDERSTANDING", scripture, Proverbs 2:6 "For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding."

now do you see it now?

a Pastor is to feed the flock of God with, "knowledge and understanding.", per Jeremiah 3:15, and this Gift is found in 1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;"

so I ask, do you understand NOW?

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sorry brother, neither 1.Cor. 12,8 nor 1. Cor.12,28 is talking about woman can be Pastor/leader/eldest of the church.
You have to put your meaning into the text. But you cant get it out of the text.

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 12, and he also wrote 1 Corinthians 14 below

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[Aidan1]

if so then answer me this, 1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;"
is this the Pastoral Gift, yes or No?

PICJAG, 101G.

Someone can have this gift, without beeing Pastor/eldest/leader of a church.
And this both gifts are not enough for to be a Pastor

 

[Truth7t7]

ARE you sure, as I asked what are the Pastoral work? lets see, Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."
NOW,
1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;"

now a word of Wisdom is "UNDERSTANDING", scripture, Proverbs 2:6 "For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding."

now do you see it now?

a Pastor is to feed the flock of God with, "knowledge and understanding.", per Jeremiah 3:15, and this Gift is found in 1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;"

so I ask, do you understand NOW?

PICJAG, 101G.

So I Ask, Do You Understand Now?

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[101G]

Someone can have this gift, without beeing Pastor/eldest/leader of a church.
And this both gifts are not enough for to be a Pastor

ERROR, 1 Corinthians 12:29 "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?"
1 Corinthians 12:30 "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

so try again,

PICJAG, 101G

 

[Truth7t7]

ERROR, 1 Corinthians 12:29 "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?"
1 Corinthians 12:30 "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

so try again,

PICJAG, 101G

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 12, and he also wrote 1 Corinthians 14 below, why do you disregard this truth?

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Acts 15 gives us an example of how Christianity actually developed. The Apostles were literally figuring out Christianity, and what it means to be "free in Christ," yet in Acts 15 (below), Paul clearly teaches that Gentiles are to follow the Law of Moses. We also see, in Galatians 2, that Peter reverts back to the Law of Moses, thus causing many to fall astray. Brutal.

Clearly, the Apostles, at least for a time, were struggling with the development of Christianity, and what it means to be Free in Christ. Therefore, I am also compelled to believe that this is an error on the part of Paul . . . to tell women to be silent and cover their heads in church. That seems like hardcore legalism to me. In fact, I'd be crushed if I entered a church and found women to be in this controlled condition.

Acts 15:19-21 NLT - "And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood. For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations."

 

[Scribe]

I really did not understand just how unbiblical the banning of women from pastoring was until I found out what these pharisees actually teach. It reminds me of how they used to use scriptures to justify slavery. Maybe in another 200 years most will concede that they were using the scriptures unlawfully.

 

[Aidan1]

ERROR, 1 Corinthians 12:29 "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?"
1 Corinthians 12:30 "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

so try again,

PICJAG, 101G

I must not try again. You Was talking from 1. Cor.12, 28
But doesnt matter, you cant proof me with any verse that it is biblical that woman become pastor/leader/eldest of a church.
The reason for that lays in genesis 3 and not in the lack of gifts/knowledge/wisdom.

 

[Aidan1]

I really did not understand just how unbiblical the banning of women from pastoring was until I found out what these pharisees actually teach. It reminds me of how they used to use scriptures to justify slavery. Maybe in another 200 years most will concede that they were using the scriptures unlawfully.

Maby you listening to the wrong people, instead of reading the word of God.

 

[cv5]

I too have listened to many hours (far more than four) of teaching on the subject, and read many thousands of pages on it. Still, we disagree.

I wonder what ridiculous assumptions and derogatory accusations you'll make in response this time.

All I can say is I posted four hours worth of extremely high quality exegesis. None of which wanders afield into vain human philosophy. Just straight up hard-core biblical teaching. Which by the way can actually be covered in a day or two.......in its succinct essence.

 

[cv5]

I really did not understand just how unbiblical the banning of women from pastoring was until I found out what these pharisees actually teach. It reminds me of how they used to use scriptures to justify slavery. Maybe in another 200 years most will concede that they were using the scriptures unlawfully.

Another 200 years you say? Seriously? Are you an amillennialist?

 

[cv5]

The countervailing evidence is that there are NO records whatsoever of women pastors/elders/bishops leading any known legitimate Church......for well over 2000 years.

No, but the truth is that this woman pastor phenomenon is very VERY recent (only the last 20 years or so), very wrong and unscriptural. It is a grievous heresy and is a manifestation of the end of the age rebellious Church. It is the result of an overall Satanic agenda to destroy the properly ordained Godly roles of men and women and family set forth from the beginning of human history.

Your supporting argument that Nymphia is pastoring a congregation is quite frankly preposterous in light of the clearly defined commands of Paul set forth for the very purpose of eliminating the possibility of women as leaders and pastors in the Church!

Allowing women pastors is heretical and supporting them is rebellion.

Indeed the precident for men only pastors is "old". More than 2000 years old.

 

[Major]

This is almost laughable.
You are demonstrating a drastic lack of understanding concerning how language is used.
This is an older manner of speaking. You cannot base doctrine on misunderstanding of archaic language.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
1 Cor 5:17

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:32

^By your logic, according to the verses above, only men can be saved. Because the Bible says men!!

The ages of man
The religions of man
The tongues of men and angels - these all include men & women. Mankind, not the male human alone.




We will not go over for the umpteenth time the fact that the 'husband' reference is regarding the very well known
& heavily documented practice of polygamy.

Everyone has an opinion!

King James Bible
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

English Standard Version
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

New King James Version
This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.

New American Standard Bible
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

NASB 1995
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

NASB 1977
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

Amplified Bible
This is a faithful and trustworthy saying: if any man [eagerly] seeks the office of overseer (bishop, superintendent), he desires an excellent task.

American Standard Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
This is a trustworthy saying, that if a man desires Eldership, he desires a good work.

Douay-Rheims Bible
A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

English Revised Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Good News Translation
This is a true saying: If a man is eager to be a church leader, he desires an excellent work.

World English Bible
This is a faithful saying: if a man seeks the office of an overseer, he desires a good work.

IF.....IF I AM demonstrating a drastic lack of understanding concerning how language is used.
IT SEEMS AS THOUGH I AM IN A REALLY GOOD CROWD OF OTHER BELIEVERS!!!!!!!!!!

YOOU said............
This is an older manner of speaking. You cannot base doctrine on misunderstanding of archaic language.

IF.....IF that was not so sad, it would be laughable.

For 1500 years the church taught and demanded that salivation came the grace of God PLUS WORKS.

In 1565 Martin Luthor said NO. In OLD GERMAN he based his 99 thesis on one "old archaic method of Scripture".....
Ephesians 2:8-9......
"YE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, AND NOT OF YOURSELVES".

WAS HE WRONG THEN AS YOU SAY WE WHO BELIEVE 1 TIMOTHY 3:-12 TODAY??????

You can not have it both ways.

 

[Truth7t7]

I really did not understand just how unbiblical the banning of women from pastoring was until I found out what these pharisees actually teach. It reminds me of how they used to use scriptures to justify slavery. Maybe in another 200 years most will concede that they were using the scriptures unlawfully.

In Rebellion To Gods Clear Words Below

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[Major]

Payne is not Pentecostal. This is not a matter of denominations but of properly interpreting scripture. There is much more to 1 Tim 2:11-15 discussed in these papers and since both sides of the argument are expounded upon there is no reason for me to rewrite it. I don't have room in one post to handle it the way they do and so I will keep posting them for those who are serious about analyzing the scriptures.

And for your information, (and it is sad that you don't know this but pretend to be expert on this verse) Most scholars who do NOT believe a woman should pastor believe that Husband of one wife means not to married to more than one wife as that would not be blameless and NOT that he must be married. Therefore the majority of bible believing scholars do not agree with your interpretation that Paul is pointing out that he must be a man but that the elder/bishop/deacon if he is married must not be married to more than one wife and this view is shared by most of those who believe a woman should not pastor. So your one verse is one of the weakest you could use to prove your point as it was never intended to say that a woman cannot pastor and you are trying to read into it something Paul did not have in mind. If he did he would have made a point that a woman should not be appointed as an elder but he never did that so you will never be able to call this an foundational text for your premise. Move on find more. Read Moos article it will equip you to present your cause better than you are doing so far.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

Who is PAYNE???

You said.............
"Most scholars who do NOT believe a woman should pastor believe that Husband of one wife means not to married to more than one wife as that would not be blameless and NOT that he must be married. "

Agreed. That is what the Scripture says....."Husband of ONE wife".
It does not say DIVORCED.

You said........
"So your one verse is one of the weakest you could use to prove your point as it was never intended to say that a woman cannot pastor and you are trying to read into it something Paul did not have in mind. "

That is INCORRECT my friend.

I am not trying to prove anything whatsoever. ALL I have done from the verse 1st post is to post WHAT GOD SAID!
I am NOT trying to read into the Scriptures ANYTHING WHATSOEVER.

All I did was post WHAT GOD SAID.

"This is a true saying, If a MAN desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

All of those referrences are MASCULINE pronouns in the original Greek.

You then said..........
"If he did he would have made a point that a woman should not be appointed as an elder but he never did that so you will never be able to call this an foundational text for your premise."

Now why would God have to be MORE to the point than using the words MAN, HE and HUSBAND just to allow YOU to be able to understand the meaning of the words MAN, HE, and HUSBAND which again are MASCULINE pronouns????????

Are YOU sure that YOU want to stand on that kind of thinking????

 

[Major]

Belligerence will not win this debate.

It comes down to hermeneutics. Properly interpreting scripture. Properly interpreting scripture is not accomplished by demanding that you are doing it right and I am not and adding the word PERIOD.

You must present your reasons using the rules of hermeneutics. The art and science of interpreting scriptures.

Below is an excellent example of both sides of the argument. What one must decide is which one is a more accurate interpretation of the Word of God and which one is making mistakes in their interpretation.

The one that is closest to what the original authors intended in the original context is the correct interpretation or the one that the Holy Spirit intended.

There are others, but these are often quoted in bibliographies by those who have written scholarly presentations on this argument.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF


I believe what I believe because I believe it is the correct interpretation of word of God based on the rules of hermeneutics.

People who are biligerant and condemn others for not agreeing with the word if they don't agree with their bad hermeneutics only intimidate the ignorant sheep that follow them. I am not one of those. I search the scriptures and make sure that the interpretation is correct. At this point Payne has done a much better job in this debate. He is not a Charismatic, Pentecostal.

And saying "I don't need to read reasoning of men" is just code for "I am too stubbornly belligerent to study all the scriptures on the topic and my mind is made up and I don't care if I am wrong, I don't want to discover how I am wrong" because I don't want women to preach in my church. PERIOD

So you think that saying Charismatic Pentecostals interpret the Scriptures anyway they want to is being BELLIGENERANT?????

I say that it is just telling the honest down to earth truth and when that is done, those who are guilty always cry the loudest.

The Scriptures Actually say that women CAN NOT be pastors. YOUR denomination ignores the Scriptures my friend......PEROID!

NOTHIN said here FROM the Scriptures is gong to win a debate with you I fear.

Belligerence will not win this debate is true, and I was not being that at all. I was just telling the truth.

It is all just a matter of READING and BELIEVING what is literally said in the Scriptures.

 

[Major]

Rebellion To Gods Clear Words Below

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

You forgot to quote the (NAFB)

(N)ew (A)merican (F)emenist (B)bible

I posted as many as I could find thinking that there is truth in numbers for those who do not believe........stupid me!

 

[Truth7t7]

Everyone has an opinion!

King James Bible
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

English Standard Version
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

New King James Version
This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.

New American Standard Bible
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

NASB 1995
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

NASB 1977
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

Amplified Bible
This is a faithful and trustworthy saying: if any man [eagerly] seeks the office of overseer (bishop, superintendent), he desires an excellent task.

American Standard Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
This is a trustworthy saying, that if a man desires Eldership, he desires a good work.

Douay-Rheims Bible
A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

English Revised Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Good News Translation
This is a true saying: If a man is eager to be a church leader, he desires an excellent work.

World English Bible
This is a faithful saying: if a man seeks the office of an overseer, he desires a good work.

IF.....IF I AM demonstrating a drastic lack of understanding concerning how language is used.
IT SEEMS AS THOUGH I AM IN A REALLY GOOD CROWD OF OTHER BELIEVERS!!!!!!!!!!

YOOU said............
This is an older manner of speaking. You cannot base doctrine on misunderstanding of archaic language.

IF.....IF that was not so sad, it would be laughable.

For 1500 years the church taught and demanded that salivation came the grace of God PLUS WORKS.

In 1565 Martin Luthor said NO. In OLD GERMAN he based his 99 thesis on one "old archaic method of Scripture".....
Ephesians 2:8-9......
"YE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, AND NOT OF YOURSELVES".

WAS HE WRONG THEN AS YOU SAY WE WHO BELIEVE 1 TIMOTHY 3:-12 TODAY??????

You can not have it both ways.

You forgot to quote the (NAFB)

(N)ew (A)merican (F)emenist (B)bible