How to be Born Again
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FreeGrace2 said:
I don't think we can claim that God reveals Himself differently to different people. Romans 1:19-21 does not allow such thinking.
Maybe you don't understand what the verse says.
You mean it's "wrong" because it doesn't say something? Again, it seems you just don't understand what it does say.
I always go with what a verse actually does say. Not what it doesn't say. Which seems to be a default argument for some.
So Romans 1:19-21 is a "stinker", huh. Wow.
That isn't the point, which apparently you missed.
The point was about how God reveals Himself to the world. And Romans 1:19-21 states how very clearly.
I don't think we can claim that God reveals Himself differently to different people. Romans 1:19-21 does not allow such thinking.
Maybe you don't understand what the verse says.
You mean it's "wrong" because it doesn't say something? Again, it seems you just don't understand what it does say.
I always go with what a verse actually does say. Not what it doesn't say. Which seems to be a default argument for some.
So Romans 1:19-21 is a "stinker", huh. Wow.
That isn't the point, which apparently you missed.
The point was about how God reveals Himself to the world. And Romans 1:19-21 states how very clearly.
FreeGrace2 said:
Sure. You have been given Scripture and you don't believe it.
See how that works? Try a better approach.
Like quoting verses that actually say what you claim. So far, you haven't. And when you do quote verses, you are given explanations of the verses that prove that they don't say what you think they mean.
otoh, you don't even bother trying to explain any of the verses that we have provided. All you do is regurgitate your talking points.
I always include my quotes before your "responses" for context.
I never gave any Scripture to a mr. I gave it to you. Probably a typo.
Under whose authority do you claim for your wildly ridiculous claim that I don't believe the verses that I gave to you?
Maybe you confuse words. You may think "believe" and "understand" are synonymous, but they aren't.
Sure. You have been given Scripture and you don't believe it.
See how that works? Try a better approach.
Like quoting verses that actually say what you claim. So far, you haven't. And when you do quote verses, you are given explanations of the verses that prove that they don't say what you think they mean.
otoh, you don't even bother trying to explain any of the verses that we have provided. All you do is regurgitate your talking points.
I always include my quotes before your "responses" for context.
I never gave any Scripture to a mr. I gave it to you. Probably a typo.
Under whose authority do you claim for your wildly ridiculous claim that I don't believe the verses that I gave to you?
Maybe you confuse words. You may think "believe" and "understand" are synonymous, but they aren't.
This is what I posted:
"
FreeGrace2 said:
Then quote at least 1 verse for teach letter. Can you?
The truth is that man is totally unable to save himself.
Calvinism goes way too far by claiming that man can't believe unless he is regenerated. So prove that with verses.
But I've already refuted the notion that regeneration precedes faith.
Eph 2:5 equates regeneration (made alive) with salvation (have been saved).
Eph 2:8 says plainly that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.
That PROVES that faith must be present in order to be saved.
And that is EXACTLY how Paul answered the jailer.
Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
If calvinism was biblical, Paul's answer WOULD HAVE BEEN THIS:
There's absolutely nothing you can do to be saved. God already decided before the foundation of the world who would be saved unconditionally.
Hm. But he didn't give the jailer any of the calvinist talking points."
And this is the lame response:
In my post, I SAID that "man is totally unable to save himself, and you apparently can't understand what that means, so you make a blathering error about my "rejecting total inability".
The problem, once again, is your calvinist talking points keep getting in the way.
The issue is salvation. Man cannot save himself. That is total depravity or total inability.
If man is unable to believe, why haven't you proven it from Scripture YET?
Because everyone, including you, KNOW full well that there are no such verses.
Rom 10:10 says man believes from the heart.
Acts 14:2 and 19:9 both say that men "refused to believe". That PROVES ability.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Then quote at least 1 verse for teach letter. Can you?
The truth is that man is totally unable to save himself.
Calvinism goes way too far by claiming that man can't believe unless he is regenerated. So prove that with verses.
But I've already refuted the notion that regeneration precedes faith.
Eph 2:5 equates regeneration (made alive) with salvation (have been saved).
Eph 2:8 says plainly that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.
That PROVES that faith must be present in order to be saved.
And that is EXACTLY how Paul answered the jailer.
Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
If calvinism was biblical, Paul's answer WOULD HAVE BEEN THIS:
There's absolutely nothing you can do to be saved. God already decided before the foundation of the world who would be saved unconditionally.
Hm. But he didn't give the jailer any of the calvinist talking points."
And this is the lame response:
In my post, I SAID that "man is totally unable to save himself, and you apparently can't understand what that means, so you make a blathering error about my "rejecting total inability".
The problem, once again, is your calvinist talking points keep getting in the way.
The issue is salvation. Man cannot save himself. That is total depravity or total inability.
If man is unable to believe, why haven't you proven it from Scripture YET?
Because everyone, including you, KNOW full well that there are no such verses.
Rom 10:10 says man believes from the heart.
Acts 14:2 and 19:9 both say that men "refused to believe". That PROVES ability.
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FreeGrace2 said:
What is the calvinist response to this verse:
1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
OK, now I know the calvinist response to 1 Peter 3:18; it's just a rabbit trail.
I should have expected that kind of response, since you've already admitted that you don't care how many verses refute your talking points.
What is the calvinist response to this verse:
1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
OK, now I know the calvinist response to 1 Peter 3:18; it's just a rabbit trail.
I should have expected that kind of response, since you've already admitted that you don't care how many verses refute your talking points.
I asked this:
"OK, please explain 1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
We know that Christ is "the righteous". So who are the "unrighteous" then?"
OK, now we're getting somewhere.
The calvinist explanation of 1 Pter 3:18 is that "the unrighteous" refers to His elect, sheep, church, the foreknown.
If that is so, then Christ wouldn't have needed to die for the rest of us, who are NOT described as "the unrighteous".
What you obviously miss is that such a view leads directly to UNIVERSALISM, in that Christ died for "the unrighteous" or elect, so they would go to heaven, and He didn't need to die for the rest of mankind, who are NOT "the unrighteous", who will OBVIOUSLY also go to heaven.
So your theology is really that everyone will go to heaven.
Interesting.
"OK, please explain 1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
We know that Christ is "the righteous". So who are the "unrighteous" then?"
OK, now we're getting somewhere.
The calvinist explanation of 1 Pter 3:18 is that "the unrighteous" refers to His elect, sheep, church, the foreknown.
If that is so, then Christ wouldn't have needed to die for the rest of us, who are NOT described as "the unrighteous".
What you obviously miss is that such a view leads directly to UNIVERSALISM, in that Christ died for "the unrighteous" or elect, so they would go to heaven, and He didn't need to die for the rest of mankind, who are NOT "the unrighteous", who will OBVIOUSLY also go to heaven.
So your theology is really that everyone will go to heaven.
Interesting.
Now read
1 John 2:2
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
v.2 is perhaps the clearest verse in the Bible about the fact that Christ died for all of humanity
The words "not or ours ONLY" refers to believers.
The words "the whole world" includes everyone else. Unbelievers.
You have quite a knack for totally twisting clear verses totally out of their meaning.
1 John 2:2 says NOTHING about "when" anyone is "anything". But of course it's no problem for you to ADD to Scripture in order to justify your misunderstanding of theology.
There is nothing in ANY of John's epistles to lead anyone to understand "whole world" to mean only believers/elect, etc.
1 John 2:2
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
v.2 is perhaps the clearest verse in the Bible about the fact that Christ died for all of humanity
The words "not or ours ONLY" refers to believers.
The words "the whole world" includes everyone else. Unbelievers.
You have quite a knack for totally twisting clear verses totally out of their meaning.
1 John 2:2 says NOTHING about "when" anyone is "anything". But of course it's no problem for you to ADD to Scripture in order to justify your misunderstanding of theology.
There is nothing in ANY of John's epistles to lead anyone to understand "whole world" to mean only believers/elect, etc.
Here is the verse. Let's see what it DOES say.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
It says nothing about believing. And nothing about being "totally unable".
But you still miss the point in the context.
The next verse, for example.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
First, John makes the point that "all" or everyone will be taught by God. Not some, or most, or many, etc. It says all.
Now the point. It is EVERYONE who HAS LISTENED AND LEARNED from the Father who will come to Jesus.
Since you are using a computer to communicate on this forum, I will assume that you have been through school and therefore have observed many many classmates over your school years.
Does EVERYONE listen and learn from the teacher?
Is listening and learning a choice that is made?
Can people not pay attention in class?
Isa 48:18 -
If only you had paid attention to my commands, your peace would have been like a river, your well-being like the waves of the sea.
Pretty clear, huh.
Romans 1:19-21 PROVES accountability because no one has an excuse:
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
So, who is 'without excuse'? People. Not some people, or many people, or a few people. People. That means everyone.
These verses prove that ANYONE and EVERYONE can glorify Him as God AND can give rthanks to Him, just as Cornelius did BEFORE he was saved by Peter's message. Acts 10-11.
If you had only paid attention to Scripture you would have known these things.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
It says nothing about believing. And nothing about being "totally unable".
But you still miss the point in the context.
The next verse, for example.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
First, John makes the point that "all" or everyone will be taught by God. Not some, or most, or many, etc. It says all.
Now the point. It is EVERYONE who HAS LISTENED AND LEARNED from the Father who will come to Jesus.
Since you are using a computer to communicate on this forum, I will assume that you have been through school and therefore have observed many many classmates over your school years.
Does EVERYONE listen and learn from the teacher?
Is listening and learning a choice that is made?
Can people not pay attention in class?
Isa 48:18 -
If only you had paid attention to my commands, your peace would have been like a river, your well-being like the waves of the sea.
Pretty clear, huh.
Romans 1:19-21 PROVES accountability because no one has an excuse:
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
So, who is 'without excuse'? People. Not some people, or many people, or a few people. People. That means everyone.
These verses prove that ANYONE and EVERYONE can glorify Him as God AND can give rthanks to Him, just as Cornelius did BEFORE he was saved by Peter's message. Acts 10-11.
If you had only paid attention to Scripture you would have known these things.
You dont understand much do you ? Coming and Believing are synonyms in scripture in this regard, notice Jn 6:35,64-65
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
So again, man naturally cant come/believe on Christ ! He doesnt have the ability.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
So again, man naturally cant come/believe on Christ ! He doesnt have the ability.
Lots of clues.
Here is one from wiki
"""Another explanation for the name Yehoshua is that it comes from the root ישע yod-shin-'ayin, meaning "to deliver, save, or rescue". ... The name Yeshua is a shortened version of the name Yehoshua or Joshua and is the literal Hebrew word for Salvation.""".
Here is one from wiki
"""Another explanation for the name Yehoshua is that it comes from the root ישע yod-shin-'ayin, meaning "to deliver, save, or rescue". ... The name Yeshua is a shortened version of the name Yehoshua or Joshua and is the literal Hebrew word for Salvation.""".
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Think "passover"
The passover lamb was not a concept or a doctrine.
It was the animal and his blood.
Literal .
Tangable.
Jesus was/is the lamb. The sacrifice
Not to be repeated. One time sacrifice
Salvation is in a person
Not a doctrine.
If you play it backwards.. Jesus..his name and purpose IS SALVATION.
All i am doing is uncovering the root.
If i can not say " Jesus is salvation/ salvation is Jesus" then i am untaught on what salvation is.
The passover lamb was not a concept or a doctrine.
It was the animal and his blood.
Literal .
Tangable.
Jesus was/is the lamb. The sacrifice
Not to be repeated. One time sacrifice
Salvation is in a person
Not a doctrine.
If you play it backwards.. Jesus..his name and purpose IS SALVATION.
All i am doing is uncovering the root.
If i can not say " Jesus is salvation/ salvation is Jesus" then i am untaught on what salvation is.