How to be Born Again
- Thread starter oyster67
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
' cannot...compute ...I must de fault to programme...I...am a ro ..bot ..must come ..back to regeneration precedes faith ..I have ...my syllogism.. a) cannot be b) without c) ..I..am a robot for the system...cannot access scripture , only the system...I cannot answer beyond this ...I do ...not know the bible...cannot compute ..."
Wow. Your record player is really stuck.
I gave 2 verses that plainly state that Jews REFUSED to believe. Do you understand what that means?
Apparently not. Because your calvinist talking points keep getting in the way.
So I'll explain what it means. It means they chose not to believe. That's what a refusal is. A choice not to engage.
Kinda like your non-responses to the posts of others.
But then, having no support from Scripture, what is there left to respond with?
Peter's explanation to the believers who gave him grief for visiting the home of a Gentile proves that Cornelius wasn't saved before Peter visited. Even though the Spirit told Peter about Cornelius:
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Note that Peter wasn't saying that Cornelius was already saved. That is clear from 11:14.
I gave 2 verses that plainly state that Jews REFUSED to believe. Do you understand what that means?
Apparently not. Because your calvinist talking points keep getting in the way.
So I'll explain what it means. It means they chose not to believe. That's what a refusal is. A choice not to engage.
Kinda like your non-responses to the posts of others.
But then, having no support from Scripture, what is there left to respond with?
Peter's explanation to the believers who gave him grief for visiting the home of a Gentile proves that Cornelius wasn't saved before Peter visited. Even though the Spirit told Peter about Cornelius:
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Note that Peter wasn't saying that Cornelius was already saved. That is clear from 11:14.
brightfame52 said:
I dont agree with that, thats impossible. They in the flesh cant please God Rom 8:8
Sir, you're a genius. This is just brilliant!
I dont agree with that, thats impossible. They in the flesh cant please God Rom 8:8
Sir, you're a genius. This is just brilliant!
-
1
- Show all
Since you hook up on that one single issue, I take it that you are pentecostal or charismatic and stuck with the idea that a person first gets saved and then later receive the Spirit. That would really be another discussion, but since it is implied your reply this error comes into this very topic.
You are making no sense and you cannot have read my posts well enough. I said that without exception ALL believers have the gift of faith. This faith is no different from saving faith. It is all wrought by the same Spirit. You do not work up your own faith first and then receive the faith of the Spirit later on, that's unbiblical.
Now, it is for you to ponder how the unregenerate, who CAN NOT receive the Spirit, according to scripture, yet somehow are able by the Spirit to say that Jesus is Lord. That, my friend, makes no sense.
You are making no sense and you cannot have read my posts well enough. I said that without exception ALL believers have the gift of faith. This faith is no different from saving faith. It is all wrought by the same Spirit. You do not work up your own faith first and then receive the faith of the Spirit later on, that's unbiblical.
Now, it is for you to ponder how the unregenerate, who CAN NOT receive the Spirit, according to scripture, yet somehow are able by the Spirit to say that Jesus is Lord. That, my friend, makes no sense.
How do you think that makes sense? You have some other scriptures to back up the claim of two different faiths in one? There is an initial faith and then there's a secondary faith?
Is this not a necessary clause for people who believe in unregenerates ability to believe? Do you understand that it would collision against scriptures saying that the world cannot receive the Spirit and that noone can say that Jesus is Lord if not by the Spirit?
This is basically an arminian error (denial of total depravity, positive view of man), since they believe that the unregenerate can believe. Hence it follows that you have to differ between natural man's faith and Spirit given faith. However, scripture makes no such distinction.
Is this not a necessary clause for people who believe in unregenerates ability to believe? Do you understand that it would collision against scriptures saying that the world cannot receive the Spirit and that noone can say that Jesus is Lord if not by the Spirit?
This is basically an arminian error (denial of total depravity, positive view of man), since they believe that the unregenerate can believe. Hence it follows that you have to differ between natural man's faith and Spirit given faith. However, scripture makes no such distinction.
No person can be "born again" unless they receive the Circumcision of Christ. Nothing else matters.
Below, verse ten states that "we" are complete in Christ, and Paul then moves to explain why and how. There is nothing more important in the entire Bible to know more than these passages below.
Colossians 2:10-15 NKJV - ". . . and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with [Him] through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it."
Below, verse ten states that "we" are complete in Christ, and Paul then moves to explain why and how. There is nothing more important in the entire Bible to know more than these passages below.
Colossians 2:10-15 NKJV - ". . . and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with [Him] through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it."
No, they do NOT say what you presumptuously force them to say. Yes, the Spirit convicts sinners of their sin, it still does not mean that sinners have some "free will choice".
I have been asking you many times now for such scripture and all you do is repeat same scriptures saying absolutely nothing of that sort. You are proven to be in error, pal. Get that and receive correction from what the Word of God says on the matter.
I have been asking you many times now for such scripture and all you do is repeat same scriptures saying absolutely nothing of that sort. You are proven to be in error, pal. Get that and receive correction from what the Word of God says on the matter.
Where do you find the word "chance of getting saved" (Jesus said it was IMPOSSIBLE for men)? And, again, give me a scripture that says that your salvation hangs upon a "free-will decision" that you make as unregenerate. You will find NONE, I can tell you already now.
If it was His will that literally all would be saved then literally all would be saved. How can God''s will be thwarted in such a crucial matter? "For who hath resisted his will?" (Rom.9:19). And God IS weak if His plan of salvation depends upon the choices of unregenerate God-hating men.
You are making your salvation totally conditioned upon something in YOU and not totally in GOD, which before your regeneration is OUTSIDE of you. You put your justification in your own old man SELF and not totally in GOD. Can you see that? You do not understand that you glorify sinners "choice" and NOT God alone, thereby you are establishing your own righteousness, not submitting yourself to the righteousness of God. THAT is what your thinking leads to.
If it was His will that literally all would be saved then literally all would be saved. How can God''s will be thwarted in such a crucial matter? "For who hath resisted his will?" (Rom.9:19). And God IS weak if His plan of salvation depends upon the choices of unregenerate God-hating men.
You are making your salvation totally conditioned upon something in YOU and not totally in GOD, which before your regeneration is OUTSIDE of you. You put your justification in your own old man SELF and not totally in GOD. Can you see that? You do not understand that you glorify sinners "choice" and NOT God alone, thereby you are establishing your own righteousness, not submitting yourself to the righteousness of God. THAT is what your thinking leads to.
Absolutely! (This is new to you?
) God will not force anyone to come. He will force no man to follow, but the invitation goes out to all. (This is new to you? Really?)
) God will not force anyone to come. He will force no man to follow, but the invitation goes out to all. (This is new to you? Really?)
PS. I agree the invitation goes out to all, however only the sheep will follow. And noone makes himself a sheep.
So now were going to move right into the condescending attitude, huh.
Gifts of the Spirit and salvation is not the same thing no matter how you want to slice it....It just isn't.
Anyways, I think you may want to put a little more thought into anyone who says Jesus is Lord is saved. I know many people that say Jesus is Lord. They say they believe in him yet say they don't want to be saved. How is it that they do that, do you reckon?
And go ahead and look to Calvin on this on too because not even Calvinists believe that anyone that calls Jesus Lord is saved.
Looks like there would have to be something else that goes with that verse too then wouldn't you say.
Jesus said:
Matthew 15:7-8
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Gifts of the Spirit and salvation is not the same thing no matter how you want to slice it....It just isn't.
Anyways, I think you may want to put a little more thought into anyone who says Jesus is Lord is saved. I know many people that say Jesus is Lord. They say they believe in him yet say they don't want to be saved. How is it that they do that, do you reckon?
And go ahead and look to Calvin on this on too because not even Calvinists believe that anyone that calls Jesus Lord is saved.
Looks like there would have to be something else that goes with that verse too then wouldn't you say.
Jesus said:
Matthew 15:7-8
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
-
1
- Show all
They are absolutely intertwined. Or do you mean that there can be believers who do NOT have the gift of faith?
I know very well about this. And I have never contended that all who calls Jesus is Lord are saved. We all know that there are tares among the wheat. That was never the discussion here.
Personally though, I very seldom make blank statements about people's eternal destination at these boards. I am not here to delve into such matters. God knows perfectly well who are His and if there be children of God who have gone astray or been misled by errors or heresies, then they may be corrected and restored in due time. What I discuss here is doctrine.
And with this you want to say? Do you look only into your own heart as for your right standing with God?
I know very well about this. And I have never contended that all who calls Jesus is Lord are saved. We all know that there are tares among the wheat. That was never the discussion here.
Personally though, I very seldom make blank statements about people's eternal destination at these boards. I am not here to delve into such matters. God knows perfectly well who are His and if there be children of God who have gone astray or been misled by errors or heresies, then they may be corrected and restored in due time. What I discuss here is doctrine.
And with this you want to say? Do you look only into your own heart as for your right standing with God?
Sorry this is going to be short...it's been a long day so I'm going have to cut this short for the night.
But why don't you just go ahead and look to all the verses that say "if" just like the one I posted earlier.
Now if there is an "if" it means there is a choice.
Also go ahead and look up all the verses that whosoever, all, all men, the whole world...etc. etc. because this will give you a clue as to who can be saved.
And again more twisting and telling me what I believe...No one is glorifying a sinners choice...They are glorifying God who gave the Choice and made the way.
No one is establishing their own righteousness....The only righteousness is of the Lord and the only way to be saved is to believe and submit to Him when he calls and draws you. We can choose to submit/accept or not...those who don't believe and submit will be lost...Those that do will be saved.
Now that's pretty simple nothing hard about it. Nobody is saving themselves or any other foolish thing like that...All they are doing is accepting salvation from God.
But why don't you just go ahead and look to all the verses that say "if" just like the one I posted earlier.
Now if there is an "if" it means there is a choice.
Also go ahead and look up all the verses that whosoever, all, all men, the whole world...etc. etc. because this will give you a clue as to who can be saved.
And again more twisting and telling me what I believe...No one is glorifying a sinners choice...They are glorifying God who gave the Choice and made the way.
No one is establishing their own righteousness....The only righteousness is of the Lord and the only way to be saved is to believe and submit to Him when he calls and draws you. We can choose to submit/accept or not...those who don't believe and submit will be lost...Those that do will be saved.
Now that's pretty simple nothing hard about it. Nobody is saving themselves or any other foolish thing like that...All they are doing is accepting salvation from God.
-
1
- Show all
Gift of faith and saving faith are not the same thing. Read it in context.
If it was talking about saving faith it wouldn't say to another is given...It would say to all is given faith...seeing that it is talking about saved people here. How on earth can you come to the conclusion that it would say to another and not all would have that faith if it were talking about saving faith.
Seriously just read it.
1Corinthians 12
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
If it was talking about saving faith it wouldn't say to another is given...It would say to all is given faith...seeing that it is talking about saved people here. How on earth can you come to the conclusion that it would say to another and not all would have that faith if it were talking about saving faith.
Seriously just read it.
1Corinthians 12
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
-
1
- Show all
Well? Would be good if you could post scripture references. Let alone the fact that I posted numerous scriptures which all totally out rules what you are advocating seems only that you cherrypick verses that "seems" to support your ideas. The result: scripture colliding with scripture.
So, then we would have the Word of God contradicting itself, then we would have the Bible preach against the Bible? No, my friend, you need to have a systematic approach to scripture where it harmonizes, else you end up in doctrinal chaos. This, btw, is a trademark of pentecostals/charismatics.
Now, again, and I think I have already stated this many times:
*IF does not imply any ability for lost men to meet a certain condition.
*A given command does not imply any universal ability to keep it.
*"Whosoever" does not imply any "free will choice" for the unregenerate.
*"The whole world" does not mean that the whole world has a "free will choice".
You do not understand the theological consequence of your error. You do not understand that by putting at least partly justification IN YOU and not totally IN CHRIST, you are making salvation conditioned on your own work, on your own ability to own faith as unregenerate, thereby establishing your own righteousness. There is NO way around this. You have been duped by a false teaching here. That is what I hope you will see.
False or misguided teachers claims that the Holy Spirit enables sinners to meet conditions for their own salvation, but the Scripture teaches that the primary work of the Holy Spirit is to glorify Jesus Christ, NOT the sinner.
It is Christ ALONE who met all the penal and preceptive CONDITIONS for His elect. Faith and repentance are NOT conditions of salvation, but immediate and inevitable fruits of salvation.
To confuse the fruits of salvation with the conditions for salvation IS to confound one’s own righteousness with the righteousness of Christ. It is to be ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness (Romans 10:1-4).
So, then we would have the Word of God contradicting itself, then we would have the Bible preach against the Bible? No, my friend, you need to have a systematic approach to scripture where it harmonizes, else you end up in doctrinal chaos. This, btw, is a trademark of pentecostals/charismatics.
Now, again, and I think I have already stated this many times:
*IF does not imply any ability for lost men to meet a certain condition.
*A given command does not imply any universal ability to keep it.
*"Whosoever" does not imply any "free will choice" for the unregenerate.
*"The whole world" does not mean that the whole world has a "free will choice".
You do not understand the theological consequence of your error. You do not understand that by putting at least partly justification IN YOU and not totally IN CHRIST, you are making salvation conditioned on your own work, on your own ability to own faith as unregenerate, thereby establishing your own righteousness. There is NO way around this. You have been duped by a false teaching here. That is what I hope you will see.
False or misguided teachers claims that the Holy Spirit enables sinners to meet conditions for their own salvation, but the Scripture teaches that the primary work of the Holy Spirit is to glorify Jesus Christ, NOT the sinner.
It is Christ ALONE who met all the penal and preceptive CONDITIONS for His elect. Faith and repentance are NOT conditions of salvation, but immediate and inevitable fruits of salvation.
To confuse the fruits of salvation with the conditions for salvation IS to confound one’s own righteousness with the righteousness of Christ. It is to be ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness (Romans 10:1-4).
Sorry, I have to shake my head. You are reading texts very literally then you are trying to get by mere rational reasoning, failing to see the principal structure of the texts, let alone to draw the important conclusions.
You have posted that one scripture numerous times now, without considering the wider spectra of Spirit regeneration and its inevitable fruits. You're stuck in some isolated spiritual gift thing, separating it totally from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. By your reasoning I take it that you are pentecostal or charismatic, correct me if wrong.
Anyway, this what you present is an erroneous teaching, also, because it implies a Spirit reception past regeneration. Being arminian in its view on man, it holds that "initial faith", or saving faith, is performed by the unregenerate man, whereas Spirit infilling comes at a later point and either is the regeneration itself or adds spiritual gifts to the regenerate man. This is the basis of this error.
However, back On-Topic, these scriptures does absolutely not imply any "free will choice" for sinners. This is describing spiritual gifts for believers, of which some have some of the gifts, and which some all have. Faith, of course, is a gift that ALL believers without exception share. Notice that Paul writes:
He does not include faith here, why? Of course because all who are regenerate have it.
You have posted that one scripture numerous times now, without considering the wider spectra of Spirit regeneration and its inevitable fruits. You're stuck in some isolated spiritual gift thing, separating it totally from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. By your reasoning I take it that you are pentecostal or charismatic, correct me if wrong.
Anyway, this what you present is an erroneous teaching, also, because it implies a Spirit reception past regeneration. Being arminian in its view on man, it holds that "initial faith", or saving faith, is performed by the unregenerate man, whereas Spirit infilling comes at a later point and either is the regeneration itself or adds spiritual gifts to the regenerate man. This is the basis of this error.
However, back On-Topic, these scriptures does absolutely not imply any "free will choice" for sinners. This is describing spiritual gifts for believers, of which some have some of the gifts, and which some all have. Faith, of course, is a gift that ALL believers without exception share. Notice that Paul writes:
He does not include faith here, why? Of course because all who are regenerate have it.