Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#151,442
Jul 31, 2013
37,733
13,525
113
#151,442
Phoneman-777 said:
Only saints partake of "agape", right?
Click to expand...
nope, that's not right.

let me give you a second witness:

For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? ​
Do not even the tax collectors do the same? ​
(Matthew 5:46)

But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?
For even sinners love those who love them.
(Luke 6:32)​
​
that's agape.
sinners have it; Jesus explicitly says so.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#151,444
Jul 31, 2013
37,733
13,525
113
#151,444
Phoneman-777 said:
You missed the reason why the "many" who are practicing iniquity can only be saints. Please go back and read it again. It's got something to do with a well known Greek word. There's no need to discuss Matthew 7:23 KJV until you get the point of Matthew 24:12 KJV
Click to expand...
looks like you're going to have to start over on figuring out Matthew 24:12, since Christ says sinners have agape ((Luke 6:32))
i suggest starting in John 21:17. a person can't feed the sheep while they deny the divinity of the True Manna.

catching all this, @JBTN ?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#151,445
Jul 31, 2013
37,733
13,525
113
#151,445
posthuman said:
looks like you're going to have to start over on figuring out Matthew 24:12, since Christ says sinners have agape ((Luke 6:32))
i suggest starting in John 21:17.
Click to expand...
figure out why He calls him Simon here, instead of Peter ;)

it has to do with Luke 2:25-35, the name 'Simon/Simeon' meaning 'hearing' or 'listening' -- which will take you through Isaiah & the blinding of the eyes and stopping up of the ears of Israel, so that Salvation can go out to the Gentiles. don't leave out Proverbs 20:12 ;)

i'll even solve it for you, because, ♥

when Jesus is calling him Simon, Peter is representing Israel. when Israel sees the One they pierced and recognizes Him, saying He knows all things ((which equals omnipotence, which equals He-is-God)) the natural branches that were broken off so that we wild ones could be grafted in, will be grafted in again. then they will "see" again, which is what Christ is talking about in Matthew 23:39/Luke 13:35 -- they will not see Him until they recognize He is That One, that those who preached this to them were coming to them in the name of the LORD.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#151,446
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
#151,446
posthuman said:
just to add for the impeccable position -- the word often translated "tempted" can be translated "tested" -- and that this is what's going on here. Matthew 4 parallels the Israelites in the wilderness having come out of Egypt, where they are 'tested' and 'proven' ((Deut. 8:2 for example))

Christ is 'tested' by the Devil, not 'tempted' -- God cannot be tempted ((James 1:13)) and Christ is God.
Click to expand...
Guojing said:
Yeah, it’s natural to like people who agree with us, the confirmation bias is just too darn attractive :)
Click to expand...
Honesty is not a bad thing.
 
J

JBTN

Active member
#151,448
Feb 11, 2020
220
79
28
#151,448
Phoneman-777 said:
Sigh..OK, I'll spell it out. If you look up the word "love" in "the love of many..." you'll find the Greek word is "agape". Only saints partake of "agape", right? Therefore, the "many" who kill their "agape" cold and dead and fail to endure to the end and wind up lost must be saints.

If you disagree, then you are saying that unconverted sinners can partake of Godly agape. Please please don't say that, because I will have no choice but to make you my first blocked member on CC because I have much patience for abuse, but little patience for such stubborness ;)
Click to expand...
I wasn’t commenting on that part of your assertion. This verse does not say that the many are working iniquity.

You said this:

Therefore, these "many" are saints who, through the practice of iniquity, kill their agape cold and dead, fail to endure to the end, and are not saved in the end.

Matthew 24:12 doesn’t say that. let’s look at verses 8-12.

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/mat.24.8-12.kjv

Those working iniquity are they who deliver you up in verse 9, those who betray and hate from verse 10, and the false prophets from verse 11. I think you understand this because you reworded your last response to remove “ through the practice of iniquity”. If Saints aren’t working iniquity, then you can’t say that people who were once Saints have fallen away to be condemned. That means the point you wanted to make falls apart.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#151,449
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
#151,449
JBTN said:
The verse does not say the many were the ones causing iniquity to abound. It also doesn’t say that saints were working iniquity. You can’t even twist it into saying that. It isn’t there.

“And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/mat.24.12.kjv
Click to expand...
Are the "many" whose agape grows cold saints or sinners?
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#151,450
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
#151,450
posthuman said:
just to add for the impeccable position -- the word often translated "tempted" can be translated "tested" -- and that this is what's going on here. Matthew 4 parallels the Israelites in the wilderness having come out of Egypt, where they are 'tested' and 'proven' ((Deut. 8:2 for example))

Christ is 'tested' by the Devil, not 'tempted' -- God cannot be tempted ((James 1:13)) and Christ is God.
Click to expand...
The word is correctly translated "tempted" because Christ in His humanity was indeed tempted as we are tempted of the devil. Christ in His divinity was immune to both temptation and death, but in His humanity was subject to both. He was 100% human and 100% divine. If you're having trouble understanding that, read Job 11:7-9 KJV.

You OSAS folks want so bad for Jesus to have had an advantage over the saints....why? Do you not realize when you insist that, you are the best lawyer on Satan's team? God's character is on trial and you guys are making the best case for Satan that could possibly be made, for he claims God is unjust and you prove that by your insistence that God requires from humanity that which only His Son was equipped to perform: the ability to keep His Ten Commandments.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#151,451
Jul 31, 2013
37,733
13,525
113
#151,451
Phoneman-777 said:
You OSAS folks want so bad for Jesus to have had an advantage over the saints....why?
Click to expand...
all i'm doing is affirming that there is no sin in Him.

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. ​
(James 1:14) ​
​
does Christ have lust for sin in His heart?
no?
then He's not 'tempted' -- He's tested and found impeccable; worthy is the Lamb!!
but if you answer yes, are you even a believer?
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#151,452
Jan 18, 2011
12,284
6,656
113
#151,452
Phoneman-777 said:
The word is correctly translated "tempted" because Christ in His humanity was indeed tempted as we are tempted of the devil. Christ in His divinity was immune to both temptation and death, but in His humanity was subject to both. He was 100% human and 100% divine. If you're having trouble understanding that, read Job 11:7-9 KJV.

You OSAS folks want so bad for Jesus to have had an advantage over the saints....why? Do you not realize when you insist that, you are the best lawyer on Satan's team? God's character is on trial and you guys are making the best case for Satan that could possibly be made, for he claims God is unjust and you prove that by your insistence that God requires from humanity that which only His Son was equipped to perform: the ability to keep His Ten Commandments.
Click to expand...

of course you are a kjv only dude.

should have saw that a long time ago.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#151,455
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
#151,455
posthuman said:
​
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, ​
and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. ​
(John 3:19) ​
​
​
the word there in 'men loved darkness rather than light' happens to be 'agape'
so it appears that one has to contradict Jesus in order to hold the view that 'only saints can have agape'

will now your 'love will grow cold' and you'll block me for telling you the truth?


on the subject, it appears you probably have John 21 wrong, too. when Peter is asked 3 times by Jesus if he loves Him, it isn't about the different words for love in Greek. it's about the fact that Peter finally says ''Lord, you know all things" -- Peter confessing that Christ is God. that's when Peter gets the answer right.

would you say Peter lost his salvation during the 1st and 2nd questions, then regained it after he gave the right answer?
i would say Peter never lost the eternal life God gave him -- and God taught him when he misspoke, and reached out and grabbed him when he was sinking. Peter looking away from Jesus at the waves and wind isn't Peter forfeiting his salvation. it's Peter stumbling -- and Jesus is faithful to keep him.
Click to expand...
Uh, no....

In John 3:19 KJV, the word is "AGAPAO" which means "to prefer". The word occurs 110 times in the New Testament, specifically for behavior between people.

In Matthew 24:12, KJV, the word is "AGAPE" which means "unconditional love of God", of which, I reiterate, no unconverted sinner can partake. Therefore, the "many" of Matthew 12:13 KJV are indeed saints who kill their "agape" (not "agapao") cold and dead through the practice of iniquity, leaving them unable to endure to the end, and thus lost in the end.

Now, since you can't delete your post, I think you owe a public statement of clarification and apology, not to me, but to those who you may have encouraged in their belief in OSAS by what is clearly a false equivalence between Matthew 24:12 KJV and John 3:19 KJV. Please do so promptly.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#151,456
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
#151,456
posthuman said:
nope, that's not right.

let me give you a second witness:

For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? ​
Do not even the tax collectors do the same? ​
(Matthew 5:46)​
​
But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? ​
For even sinners love those who love them. ​
(Luke 6:32)​
​
that's agape.
sinners have it; Jesus explicitly says so.
Click to expand...
Again, you're confusing "apapao" with "agape" and you are making another false equivalence between these verses and Matthew 24:12 KJV just as you did with John 3:19 KJV. Please stop this at once.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#151,458
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
#151,458
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#151,459
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
#151,459
JBTN said:
I wasn’t commenting on that part of your assertion. This verse does not say that the many are working iniquity.

You said this:

Therefore, these "many" are saints who, through the practice of iniquity, kill their agape cold and dead, fail to endure to the end, and are not saved in the end.

Matthew 24:12 doesn’t say that. let’s look at verses 8-12.

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/mat.24.8-12.kjv

Those working iniquity are they who deliver you up in verse 9, those who betray and hate from verse 10, and the false prophets from verse 11. I think you understand this because you reworded your last response to remove “ through the practice of iniquity”. If Saints aren’t working iniquity, then you can’t say that people who were once Saints have fallen away to be condemned. That means the point you wanted to make falls apart.
Click to expand...
Are the "many" whose agape grows cold within them saints or sinners? This is the crux of the issue.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.