Five Foolish Virgins VS Five Wise Virgins

ewq1938 · Mar 31, 2021

I believe that you have not read his commentary because he plainly states the virgins are marrying the bridegroom. He is correct. The bridegroom marries the 5 wise virgins. This represents Christ marrying the church, an unknown amount of Christians.

Scribe · Mar 31, 2021

ewq1938 said:

I just posted his statements. You probably haven't read my post yet. I will give you time.

ewq1938 · Mar 31, 2021

Scribe said:

Barnes:

Ten virgins - These virgins, doubtless, represent the church - a name given to it because it is pure and holy. See 2Co_11:2; Lam_1:15; Lam_2:13.

From the other quote:

"it will be as it was in the case of ten virgins in a marriage ceremony.” The coming of Christ to receive his people to himself is often represented under the similitude of a marriage, the church being represented as his spouse or bride."

Scribe · Mar 31, 2021

ewq1938 said:

I think I know why you are confused. Barnes I think is trying to say that the ten virgins represent the church in the sense that he sees all Christians as being represented in these friends of the bridegrooom.

So it seems Barnes is stating that the ten virgins "doubtless represent the church" and then he turns around and states "These were probably female friends and relatives of the bridegroom, who went out to welcome him and his new companion to their home. These are the virgins mentioned in this parable "

So which is it? I think he meant by stating that they ten virgins represent the church not that they represent the Bride in the Jewish ceremony but that he sees that the church (each christian) is being compared to these friends of the Bridegroom in this parable and the lesson of being ready to go out when the Bridegroom comes.

Here is his commentary in it's entirety.

The meaning is, "When the Son of man returns to judgment, it will be as it was in the case of ten virgins in a marriage ceremony." The coming of Christ to receive his people to himself is often represented under the similitude of a marriage, the church being represented as his spouse or bride. The marriage relation is the most tender, firm, and endearing of any known on earth, and on this account it suitably represents the union of believers to Christ. See Matthew 9:15; John 3:29; Revelation 19:7; Revelation 21:9; Ephesians 5:25-32.

Ten virgins - These virgins, doubtless, represent the church - a name given to it because it is pure and holy. See 2 Corinthians 11:2; Lamentations 1:15; Lamentations 2:13.

Which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom - The "lamps" used on such occasions were rather "torches" or "flambeaux." They were made by winding rags around pieces of iron or earthenware, sometimes hollowed so as to contain oil, and fastened to handles of wood. These torches were dipped in oil, and gave a large light. Marriage "ceremonies" in the East were conducted with great pomp and solemnity. The ceremony of marriage was performed commonly in the open air, on the banks of a stream. Both the bridegroom and bride were attended by friends. They were escorted in a palanquin. carried by four or more persons. After the ceremony of marriage succeeded a feast of seven days if the bride was a virgin, or three days if she was a widow. This feast was celebrated in her father's house. At the end of that time the bridegroom conducted the bride with great pomp and splendor to his own home.

This was done in the evening, or at night, Jeremiah 7:34; Jeremiah 25:10; Jeremiah 33:11. Many friends and relations attended them; and besides those who went with them from the house of the bride, there was another company that came out from the house of the bridegroom to meet them and welcome them. These were probably female friends and relatives of the bridegroom, who went out to welcome him and his new companion to their home. These are the virgins mentioned in this parable. Not knowing precisely the time when the procession would come, they probably went out early, and waited until they should see indications of its approach. In the celebration of marriage in the East at the present day, many of the special customs of ancient times are observed. "At a Hindu marriage," says a modern missionary, "the procession of which I saw some years ago, the bridegroom came from a distance, and the bride lived at Serampore, to which place the bridegroom was to come by water. After waiting two or three hours, at length, near midnight, it was announced, in the very words of Scripture, 'Behold the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.' All the persons employed now lighted their lamps, and ran with them in their hands to fill up their stations in the procession. Some of them had lost their lights and were unprepared, but it was then too late to seek them, and the cavalcade moved forward to the house of the bride, at which place the company entered a large and splendidly illuminated area before the house, covered with an awning, where a great multitude of friends, dressed in their best apparel, were seated upon mats. The bridegroom was carried in the arms of a friend, and placed in a superb seat in the midst of the company, where he sat a short time, and then went into the house, the door of which was immediately shut and guarded by sepoys. I and others expostulated with the doorkeepers, but in vain. Never was I so struck with our Lord's beautiful parable as at this moment - 'And the door was shut.'"

Truth7t7 · Mar 31, 2021

Scribe said:

I think I know why you are confused. Barnes I think is trying to say that the ten virgins represent the church in the sense that he sees all Christians as being represented in these friends of the bridegrooom.

So it seems Barnes is stating that the ten virgins "doubtless represent the church" and then he turns around and states "These were probably female friends and relatives of the bridegroom, who went out to welcome him and his new companion to their home. These are the virgins mentioned in this parable "

So which is it? I think he meant by stating that they ten virgins represent the church not that they represent the Bride in the Jewish ceremony but that he sees that the church (each christian) is being compared to these friends of the Bridegroom in this parable and the lesson of being ready to go out when the Bridegroom comes.

Here is his commentary in it's entirety.

The meaning is, "When the Son of man returns to judgment, it will be as it was in the case of ten virgins in a marriage ceremony." The coming of Christ to receive his people to himself is often represented under the similitude of a marriage, the church being represented as his spouse or bride. The marriage relation is the most tender, firm, and endearing of any known on earth, and on this account it suitably represents the union of believers to Christ. See Matthew 9:15; John 3:29; Revelation 19:7; Revelation 21:9; Ephesians 5:25-32.

Ten virgins - These virgins, doubtless, represent the church - a name given to it because it is pure and holy. See 2 Corinthians 11:2; Lamentations 1:15; Lamentations 2:13.

Which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom - The "lamps" used on such occasions were rather "torches" or "flambeaux." They were made by winding rags around pieces of iron or earthenware, sometimes hollowed so as to contain oil, and fastened to handles of wood. These torches were dipped in oil, and gave a large light. Marriage "ceremonies" in the East were conducted with great pomp and solemnity. The ceremony of marriage was performed commonly in the open air, on the banks of a stream. Both the bridegroom and bride were attended by friends. They were escorted in a palanquin. carried by four or more persons. After the ceremony of marriage succeeded a feast of seven days if the bride was a virgin, or three days if she was a widow. This feast was celebrated in her father's house. At the end of that time the bridegroom conducted the bride with great pomp and splendor to his own home.

This was done in the evening, or at night, Jeremiah 7:34; Jeremiah 25:10; Jeremiah 33:11. Many friends and relations attended them; and besides those who went with them from the house of the bride, there was another company that came out from the house of the bridegroom to meet them and welcome them. These were probably female friends and relatives of the bridegroom, who went out to welcome him and his new companion to their home. These are the virgins mentioned in this parable. Not knowing precisely the time when the procession would come, they probably went out early, and waited until they should see indications of its approach. In the celebration of marriage in the East at the present day, many of the special customs of ancient times are observed. "At a Hindu marriage," says a modern missionary, "the procession of which I saw some years ago, the bridegroom came from a distance, and the bride lived at Serampore, to which place the bridegroom was to come by water. After waiting two or three hours, at length, near midnight, it was announced, in the very words of Scripture, 'Behold the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.' All the persons employed now lighted their lamps, and ran with them in their hands to fill up their stations in the procession. Some of them had lost their lights and were unprepared, but it was then too late to seek them, and the cavalcade moved forward to the house of the bride, at which place the company entered a large and splendidly illuminated area before the house, covered with an awning, where a great multitude of friends, dressed in their best apparel, were seated upon mats. The bridegroom was carried in the arms of a friend, and placed in a superb seat in the midst of the company, where he sat a short time, and then went into the house, the door of which was immediately shut and guarded by sepoys. I and others expostulated with the doorkeepers, but in vain. Never was I so struck with our Lord's beautiful parable as at this moment - 'And the door was shut.'"

Why all the fuss, the 5 foolish virgins were unsaved, it's that simple

(I Know You Not)

Matthew 25:11-12KJV
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Scribe · Mar 31, 2021

Truth7t7 said:

Yes, and why? There was a lesson to be learned from the parable about how not to be like the 5 foolish virgins. That is the main point. No other interpretation is useful if that main point is missed.

ewq1938 · Mar 31, 2021

Scribe said:

You're confused not me. Barnes plainly states the virgins represent the church and Christ is marrying the church thus these are the brides not bridesmaids or guests according to Barnes and I agree with him.

ewq1938 · Mar 31, 2021

Scribe said:

I can't find Barnes saying what you have posted. Where does it come from? Most likely yours is not from Barnes since there is no likety reason he would contradict himself.

Scribe · Mar 31, 2021

ewq1938 said:

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/barnes/matthew/25.htm

ewq1938 · Mar 31, 2021

Scribe said:

Ok thanks, that's what mine has also but the search option wasn't locating it.

There does seem to be a bit of a contradiction but maybe more of a poor wording. Christ is coming to marry virgins which collectively form a single bride but we know it's males and females of all races and peoples:

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Since all saved Christians will, be in this wedding to be married, there can't be guests etc because the unsaved are not invited. That's likely why we only have the brides being met by the bridegroom and we don't get to see the marriage that in those times would have had guests. That part wouldn't fit what happens in the endtimes. In other words, Christ isn't coming to bring guest virgins to his wedding. He is only bringing virgins he is going to marry.

Scribe · Mar 31, 2021

ewq1938 said:

First we have to understand the ancient Jewish wedding customs and who the ten virgins were in that scenario. Then we can understand what the disciples must have thought when they heard it. Parables were spoken. Jesus spoke this parable to them and it was supposed to help them "snap" to the lesson as a result. They were familiar with the Jewish wedding customs. Jesus just picked out one of the customs for his lesson. They knew that these virgins were not the Bride. How the Bride was brought to the Groom is not discussed in this parable. This was just the part about how the friends joined the parade with their lamps and got to go into the PARTY if they had a lamp. If they did not have a lamp they did not get in the parade and did not get into the party. It's that simple.

What lesson would the disciples have understood when they heard it? It was sad that the 5 foolish got stuck out and it was because they did not bring extra oil. I imagine they asked themselves "what does it mean to not bring extra oil" but after several parables which all included Jesus words warning them to "watch and pray" they probably realized that watching and praying would be how one makes sure they have extra oil.

That's my interpretation of these parables. I don't see them as a timing of the rapture and the tribulation but as a warning to be ready by watching and praying. Living a life of daily watching and praying. Don't think I have the luxury of time on my side and can recline on the couch of lustful indulgences or indifference to the things of Christ and hope for a revival at the last minute, for then it will be too late.

ewq1938 · Mar 31, 2021

Scribe said:

I do. From chp 24 to chp 25 Christ gives 7 examples or parables in a row of what it will be like when he returns and also what it's like just before he returns so that is automatically about the Great Tribulation and second coming/rapture. The parable of the ten virgins matches that timeframe perfectly.

.

Scribe · Mar 31, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Of course it has to do with his coming. But I don't think he is talking about them being in the tribulation when they are shut out. I think it is a parable to say that they were eternally lost because they were not watching and praying and thought they could wait until the last minute to get prepared. Too much is being read into it when one begins to talk about them being in the tribulation after they are shut out. That is not there in the parable. But I could be wrong.

ewq1938 · Mar 31, 2021

Scribe said:

The tribulation would be before he arrived. That's represented by the night as well as when they go to buy from those that sell.

The trib is over when the groom arrives.

Truth7t7 · Mar 31, 2021

ewq1938 said:

I agree, all contain the (Second Coming) and the conditions of man before this, what happens immediately before this, the tribulation

Truth7t7 · Mar 31, 2021

Scribe said:

They are in the tribulation "before" being shut out at the second coming

The Lord came and the door was shut, what was going on before the Lord came, the tribulation.

You surely don't claim that the Lord coming is a pre-trib rapture?

Absolutely · Apr 2, 2021

4ChristAlone said:

They were shut out from Christ regardless. However, them calling him, "Lord Lord" is perhaps more a figure of their own "double mindedness". Might be a bit of speculation but the same thing is shown repeated in Mat 7:21-22, Mat 25;11, Luke 6:46, and Luke 13:25 which ended up with them all being locked out and the Lord not knowing them.

The comparison to the wicked was based moreso in the fact that their lamps went out and how the wicked's lamps were going to be put out and them being locked out and Jesus confirming he knew them not. I dont believe I should justify them since Jesus does not do so.

Yes, the wise and the foolish are presented to us and the wise are showcased (as you call it) with oil whereas the foolish are showcased as those whose lamps went out (unto whom) the Lord said he knew them not (Mat 25:12) whereas the Lord knoweth them that actually are his 2 Ti 2:19

So when

Mat 25:8 ... the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out

This picture agrees with oil being in the dwelling of the wise

Prov 21:20 There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise;

It also says, but a foolish man spendeth it up

A foolish man is used in contrast to the wise which have oil in their dwelling, but there it indicates the foolish spendeth it (the oil) up

Similarly in the foolish virgins whose lamps have gone out, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out

Proverbs 13:9... "the lamp of the wicked shall be put out".

As the "foolish" are showcased as foolish for their lack of oil, saying to the wise, "Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out"

Another example of those who would have their lamps put out, is here also

Proverbs 20:20 Whoso curseth his father or his mother, his lamp shall be put out in obscure darkness.

Shows the wise with oil and the foolish out of it and being called wise and/or foolish according to what we can similarly find in other places in scripture.

I have not stated that the laying on of hands is evil at all, its one of the principles of the doctrine Hebrew 6:1-2 Although one might not want to do so hastily as it says in 1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. Simon might be a good example for that one. And in his case, I don't believe the apostles laid hands on Simon because his particular request was evil.

I had pointed out so much showing the same by the scriptures.

We know Simon believed and was baptized and wanted the Holy Ghost for the wrong reason it shows in the text, Simon offered them money that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost and Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness

Simon (who offered money for the Holy Spirit) was told by Peter that he was in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Which is the same word used in reference to Judas who purchased a field with the reward of iniquity in Acts 1:18 In both money was involved. In the one, money from those who valued Christ to sell out the Truth (Jesus Christ) to his betrayer Judas who in turn handed over Jesus to them for the price. In the other, Simon, was offering money to buy the Holy Spirit of truth to have the charge over such power on whomsoever he laid his hands on.

Scripture shows us that there are those who offer money for the gift of God. Apparently there are buyers out there (Judas for Jesus, Simon for the Holy Spirit). Had the apostles took the money (which they did not) only then would it make them sellers by default.

I am not sure where you are going with this one but the word "buy" is a verb, and "money" is a neuter noun just as "sell" is a verb and "merchant" is a masculine noun. I don't know where I have stated they are somehow otherwise. However, the same word buy used in Mat 25:29 is use in Mat 14:15 when the disciple wanting to send the multitude away to buy victuals for themselves. Its also the same word in Mat 21:12 when they bought and sold in the Temple (where the money changers were).

I agree, I don't think theres a gullible enough soul on this board who is so ignorant to believe otherwise (unless that persons a troll trying to get a rise out of you) ofcourse.

The incident with Simon just demonstrates for us in scripture that Simon was interested in that manner of 'transfer"( as you had called it earlier). And as depraved as that mindset is he an example of an (can be say "oiless" believer?) offering money to buy the gift of God (or the oil?) At the very least we have an example of such a buyer. Had Peter accepted it we'd have a seller also (but he rebuked doing anything like that) because that certainly was not done among the true apostles of Christ. The wise had simply pointed out that there are those at that time buying and selling what the foolish apparently needed (which is oil). I am convinced if the parable was rewritten and Simon had been named as a part of the parable he would have likely outran all the other foolish virgins to those sellers (to buy that oil) all kidding aside

I don't know what this is in reference to but feel free to share Gods reason for the number of virgins in the parable, I am all ears

Good night

You are too busy arbitrarily "correcting".

The simon thingy is too simple to look so deeply into.

When i mention " buy" and " sell" i am connecting it to those same items dynamics in rev. in the 7 letters.

I do not think 10 ( the number itself) is significant.
I believe 50 % is.
It is the same percentage as " one taken" a few sentences before.

The message is 50 % went.

Absolutely · Apr 2, 2021

ewq1938 said:

there is zero evidence of that.

In fact the setting is the opposite of what you are trying to read into it..

None in noah, lot, the virgins story, or the one taken/ left story.

None whatsoever.

In fact, in the second coming it is war. The king comes with army. No groom to see.
Rev 19.
" the bride becomes the wife"

You just revealed yet another pretrib rapture dynamic.

No husband is EVER called a groom.

Wow...yet another pretrib rapture authentication.

Thanks!

Absolutely · Apr 2, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Barnes:

Ten virgins - These virgins, doubtless, represent the church - a name given to it because it is pure and holy. See 2Co_11:2; Lam_1:15; Lam_2:13.

From the other quote:

"it will be as it was in the case of ten virgins in a marriage ceremony.” The coming of Christ to receive his people to himself is often represented under the similitude of a marriage, the church being represented as his spouse or bride."

Yes
All 10 are believers.

Absolutely · Apr 2, 2021

Scribe said:

Those left behind are martyred.
They end up in heaven as the innumerable number with dirty robes being washed.

Five Foolish Virgins VS Five Wise Virgins

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