Your thoughts on An allegory of the covenants

[2ndTimothyGroup]

yeah believing the gospel changes our understanding . The things Jesus taught in the gospel are the thkngs the holy spiritual taught and will teach us . That’s what changes our understanding to believe the gospel his understanding

I don’t think that it magically happens I think we have to believe the gospel and that then changes us through belief as we begin to walk it out this “new nature “

I agree with you what I’m saying is we have to accept and believe the gospel and not avoid it in order to be changed to believe that Jesus exists and even he died formoir sins is good and true but to reject the gospel is still damnation

when we accept Christ he will do what you are saying but our part is to abide in his word and accept it that is the operation of how he changes us

My only point in responding is the word is the spirit we can’t receive the spirit until we hear and receive the word

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

I think we are agreeing which is what I was hoping for. My only point is the change happens when we hear and accept the word that is what changes us .. if we wanted to learn how to operate a tractor we would have to accept the words that taught us

if we wanted to change from a farmer to a doctor we would have to learn new words that carry thre right information

the gospel Jesus taught is the right information to shape our mind heart and belief that belief is part of the change that needs happen

I hear what you are saying, but I would add that the True Children of God are drawn and enabled to believe, and it is only after being drawn is one enabled, and once enabled to believe, they can then say that they have received the Circumcision of Christ. To be Enabled to Believed is the Circumcision of Christ. To be Enabled to Beleive is the moment that a person has been lifted from the Curse that Adam and Eve set forth upon all Creation. This is the Purpose of Christ . . . to set a person apart from the Curse of the Sinful Nature, and in by doing so, there is no longer a need for any worldly, or even moral laws and codes. So that is the Purpose of Christ, and Colossians 2:9-15 explains and describes [how] Jesus does His Holy Work.

Salvation is entirely the Work of Christ.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I hear what you are saying, but I would add that the True Children of God are drawn and enabled to believe, and it is only after being drawn is one enabled, and once enabled to believe, they can then say that they have received the Circumcision of Christ. To be Enabled to Believed is the Circumcision of Christ. To be Enabled to Beleive is the moment that a person has been lifted from the Curse that Adam and Eve set forth upon all Creation. This is the Purpose of Christ . . . to set a person apart from the Curse of the Sinful Nature, and in by doing so, there is no longer a need for any worldly, or even moral laws and codes. So that is the Purpose of Christ, and Colossians 2:9-15 explains and describes [how] Jesus does His Holy Work.

Salvation is entirely the Work of Christ.

Yeah but believing is entirely on us brother

When you say “ God draws people “ what do you mean by that ? Are you saying man doesn’t have free will tommake a choice to be saved and if they don’t believe that’s Gods fault because they had no choice ?

salvation isn’t something God forces one to accept it is a choice to believe the gospel when you hear it that saves us . It’s not Gods fault if someone chooses not to believe the gospel is what I’m saying everyone who ends up damned it’s going to be squarely upon thier own heads their own choice That’s where I’m at .

I believe Christ did what he did and then sent the gospel out to the world to all people and anyone who then hears and believes the gospel will be saved

and the thing is Christ teaches us how to do what we need to do to be saved but when we reject his teachings about what to do and say it’s all his work he already did it I don’t need to do anything that’s never going to teach one the thkngs they are meant to walk in .

when we believe the gospel we don’t remain in the mind that we have no work because

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭

we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because the gospel brings that upon unrepentant people

What we need to do goes back to that teaching of Jesus about obedience

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭

salvation comes when we hear the truth and believe it but the truth is Jesus taught us how to be saved . And it includes repenting , and believing and applying his word to our lives . That all comes through faith and faith comes from hearing and believing the gospel

I don’t subscribe to the arguments and conclusions that the gospel changes when he died , I believe his death is what made his words eternal and all authority for salvation .

what he did is everything that makes salvation possible , now what we believe and then do is going to determine whether we are saved

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭

my conclusion is that christs work is what put the spirit in us and made us able to do what we need to which is repent and believe the gospel and learn of the true God . Doing that will lead any believer into repentance and right living which is what “ faith and grace “ is meant to accomplish

salvation that is of God and of his grace includes all these thkngs

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,

we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭

Jesus teachings that we believe , are what teaches us to repent and live right and to become zealous of the works he gave us to do while he is away

Also if we continue following the flesh were not going to have what we think

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;

Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you see how we would be taught if we believed ? Everyone has the same choice to believe the things the gospel teaches or reject them and believe a different thing that’s sort of what life in this worlds about , the gospel is here and present everywhere but who’s going to accept what they hear ?

belief is on us , salvation is already done but we have to accept it and follow

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It is written Hagar represents the Jerusalem of this age while Sarah represents the eternal New Jerusalem of God.

Sarah is free while Hagar is a slave. This would require true study , meditation and prayer by the student of the Word.

how does this shape that part about Hagar corresponding to the worldly Jerusalem and Sarah to the eternal Jerusalem in heaven ? What I mean is doesn’t this connect the two covenants directly to what is being said ?

“For it is written, that Abraham had two sons,

the one by a bondmaid,

the other by a freewoman.

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh;

but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;

the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so he is saying ishmael who was born of Hagar , represents the covenant made through Moses at Sinai. And that covenant corresponds to the earthly Jerusalem which is in bondage still.

and that Isaac who was born of promise of Abraham’s wife and is the one who receives the inheritance , represents the new covenant made through Christ who is the seed of promise

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Aren’t we looking at a perfect allegory to teach us about the two covenants and that one is earthly and is cast away and the other is heavenly and includes inheritance of the kingdom ?

 

[Nehemiah6]

it’s a confusing world for a Christian looking for the right doctrine .

A careful study of the epistle to the Hebrews should be able to remove the confusion.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

A careful study of the epistle to the Hebrews should be able to remove the confusion.

What do you mean brother ?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

When you say “ God draws people “ what do you mean by that ? Are you saying man doesn’t have free will tommake a choice to be saved and if they don’t believe that’s Gods fault because they had no choice ?

I can't say anything greater than what Christ said Himself. To add to His Words on this matter would be to clutter it.

John 6:44 NLT - "For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up."

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because the gospel brings that upon unrepentant people

Yes . . . that is clearly what the Bible says. And the Bible also says that it is the Lord who Enables us. So, in looking at these two ideas, we can reconcile them by saying that if a person is not working out their Salvation with fear and trembling, it is because they have not been enabled by Christ to do so.

NLT - "Clearly, you are a letter from Christ showing the result of our ministry among you. This "letter" is written not with pen and ink, but with the Spirit of the living God. It is carved not on tablets of stone, but on human hearts. 4 We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ. 5 It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own. Our qualification comes from God. 6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life."

This isn't a new concept . . . for Scripture tells us that the Lord's True Children are even enabled, or given the ability to suffer for the Name and sake of Jesus.

Philippians 1:29 NLT - "For you have been given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for him."

If we're in control, then God isn't. But the Lord has a Plan, and that Plan cannot and will not be thwarted.

Proverbs 19:21 NLT - "You can make many plans, but the LORD's purpose will prevail."

Isaiah 46:10 NLT - "Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish."

 

[Rosemaryx]

Is Ismael not a child of the flesh ( works ) and Issac the promised child of God ( Faith )
...xox...

 

[4ChristAlone]

Here shows a little how God has spoken by the prophets using similitudes in the same picture

Gen 8:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do

Gen 8:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

For Amos also says

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

And as we know Abraham was a prophet

Gen 20:7 Now therefore restore the man (Abraham) his wife; for he is a prophet

And God speaking by the prophet Hosea reveals to us how God has spoken by them saying,

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Even as the same is mentioned in Hebrews

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

But in these last days God hath spoken to us by his Son Heb 1:2 whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

The scriptures testify that God used "similitudes" by the ministry of the prophets (which Abraham was) which is what Paul shows by Abraham, Paul is comparing spiritual things with spiritual (by His two women in that picture). Even in the things pertaining to Abraham are shown an allegory of the law itself in the law

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Then as Paul shows

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

As He comfirms the same

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Then proceeds to expound them

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

You can read further, but these are the spiritual things (and comparisons) which is way the Holy Ghost teaches us

1 Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Just as there was a priest (of the most high) that met Abram (even before his name was changed to Abraham) who brought out to him bread and wine (which is can be understood to symbolize the body and blood of Christ) as that priest (even as Hebrews points out) was made like unto the Son of God (Heb 7:3) So after another similtude, even as the earthly shadows serve unto the heavenly examples

The similitude as the writer of Hebrews has said,

Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident:for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

Jesus Christ being made a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec that met Abram and who served him "the bread and the wine" as the scripture foresees

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The law having a shadow of the good things to come not the very image of things

 

[Nehemiah6]

What do you mean brother ?

The epistle to the Hebrews shows Hebrew Christians that when Christ made that "ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR EVER" He not only brought the Old Covenant to an end, but He also fulfilled everything pertaining to sacrifices for sins. He fulfilled the Law. Therefore (1) the temple and temple worship, (2) the Levitical priesthood, (3) all the temple sacrifices, (4) the Passover, (5) all the ceremonial washings and rituals, (6) all the feasts, festivals, and holy days, (7) everything pertaining to tithes, and (8) the Law of Moses itself, have been rendered null and void.

Only the Ten Commandments are eternal, having been summed up in the two Greatest Commandments, and then finally distilled into the Law of Christ (the Law of Love, the Royal Law, the Law of Liberty), and written on hearts and minds under the New Covenant.

The bondage of the Sinai consisted of the continuous offerings for sins year by year and day by day, since animal sacrifices could only cover sins. But Christ -- as the Lamb of God -- took away the sin of the world. Hence the Law of Liberty came into effect. Christians are to walk in the Spirit, and mortify the flesh. They are also ordained unto good works. But none of this earns them their salvation. It is solely Christ and His finished work of redemption that matters to God.

 

[Blik]

The epistle to the Hebrews shows Hebrew Christians that when Christ made that "ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR EVER" He not only brought the Old Covenant to an end, but He also fulfilled everything pertaining to sacrifices for sins. He fulfilled the Law. Therefore (1) the temple and temple worship, (2) the Levitical priesthood, (3) all the temple sacrifices, (4) the Passover, (5) all the ceremonial washings and rituals, (6) all the feasts, festivals, and holy days, (7) everything pertaining to tithes, and (8) the Law of Moses itself, have been rendered null and void. 7.

You say that God brought His promises to an end. That when Christ fulfilled all that was spoken of Him in the Old Testament, Christ then put an end to all that was spoken of Him and cancelled it. You say that Christ cancelled any celebration of His plan of salvation, we are not to celebrate Christ any longer with joy an feasting. I don't think you are right. You say it, scripture does not.

Matthew 5: 17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:17 17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You say that God brought His promises to an end.

Why did you fail to properly read what I wrote? God brought the Law of Moses to an end. Period. That actually allowed for the fulfillment of all the promises IN CHRIST.

 

[JaumeJ]

Jesus-Yeshua came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it. Learn of Him just how we are to obey under grace, and perhaps words will no longer become an obstacle.

 

[Blik]

Why did you fail to properly read what I wrote? God brought the Law of Moses to an end. Period. That actually allowed for the fulfillment of all the promises IN CHRIST.

Scripture speaks of many groups of law, what do you think scripture means when it tells us "the law of Moses?". Many people read the word fulfill differently. What do you think it means? Your post I responded to was in error if all scripture is truth, and this post I am responding to is in truth. There has to be some explanation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I can't say anything greater than what Christ said Himself. To add to His Words on this matter would be to clutter it.

John 6:44 NLT - "For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up."

Does this mean we don’t have a choice ?

if that’s the case brother why send the gospel out to people and say whoever believes will Be saved ? If it’s all
Ore determined and no one can respond to the gospel why kill
Jesus and send the gospel out to everyone as a witness and make the point of you believe you will be saved but if you don’t younwill
Be damned ?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

are you saying that no one can choose to believe the gospel and choose to be baptized and be saved ?

I think your scripture is true but I’m not sure it holds the meaning you think it does

Gid knows everything from the beginning , but you and I don’t . So all the information on the gospel God already knows . We however have to hear the gospel in order to either believe it or disbelieve it

God already knows who has accepted the gospel even from the beginning of time , we don’t however . When any person ever is saved it’s because Jesus did what he did and said what he said and then they believed it . It’s mans original place

Adam also had a choice he could have believed Gods word about the fruit , or he could believe eves word which came from Satan about the fruit

it’s the same situation we can believe the gospel or we can believe people explaining the gospel isn’t for you .

I don’t believe that man has no choice that would mean that people in hell are there by his will and not thier own God isn’t like that we all are going to be judged on our own works this is only possible because of Jesus and what he did

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the good they do and bad they do is not what God forced them to do . Each person does indeed have a choice now , the fact that God knows from the beginning doesn’t change our end we still Have to hear and believe the gospel or hear and reject it

in the end whoever believes knows God drew them to himself but that doesn’t take away the choice given to everyone in earth believe the gospel or deny it that’s going to determine everything

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

what do you make of Paul’s allegorical revelation of Ishmael and Isaac ?

I’m in a study and Just looking for some thoughts to consider from other believers thank you and God bless


“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid,

the other by a freewoman.

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh;

but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;

the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar. For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:21-31‬ ‭

Paul is a revelator of Old Testament scripture . What does this allegory of Ishmael and Isaac mean to you ?

And how does it apply to New Testament believers and what does it say of the old covenant made at Sinai through Moses ?

any thoughts you have of Paul’s allegory are welcome thanks again

It quite self explanatory after your read a dozen times, and sleep on it, and then read it real slow, and then slower, and then in pieces and parts, and then altogether. Lol just thought I would add some levity to this conversation.

Paul is reaching back to a passage that wouldn't usually be considered in such a way. Most including myself read the story as simply a literal historic narrative, which it is, but as with so many of the historic narratives in the lives of the saints of old, they are telling the story of Jesus. They live out this narrative of Christ to come in a prophetic way.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The epistle to the Hebrews shows Hebrew Christians that when Christ made that "ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR EVER" He not only brought the Old Covenant to an end, but He also fulfilled everything pertaining to sacrifices for sins. He fulfilled the Law. Therefore (1) the temple and temple worship, (2) the Levitical priesthood, (3) all the temple sacrifices, (4) the Passover, (5) all the ceremonial washings and rituals, (6) all the feasts, festivals, and holy days, (7) everything pertaining to tithes, and (8) the Law of Moses itself, have been rendered null and void.

Only the Ten Commandments are eternal, having been summed up in the two Greatest Commandments, and then finally distilled into the Law of Christ (the Law of Love, the Royal Law, the Law of Liberty), and written on hearts and minds under the New Covenant.

The bondage of the Sinai consisted of the continuous offerings for sins year by year and day by day, since animal sacrifices could only cover sins. But Christ -- as the Lamb of God -- took away the sin of the world. Hence the Law of Liberty came into effect. Christians are to walk in the Spirit, and mortify the flesh. They are also ordained unto good works. But none of this earns them their salvation. It is solely Christ and His finished work of redemption that matters to God.

“It is solely Christ and His finished work of redemption that matters to God.”

brother I can’t agree with this. The gospel teaches us what matters to God and our actions is what God cares about and those actions in light of Christ will determine our end . Christ dying in the cross is an atonement only it isn’t the covenant the covenant is christs word spoken before the blood was shed

“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭

When Jesus shed his blood everything he had been speaking in the gospel became the eternal Word making the covenant his word and his blood.

the law was actually changed with the priesthood from Moses word to christs

“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christs priesthood is not according to Moses law but according to his word the eternal word which is what Hebrews begins establishing

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Meet the end of Hebrews you see he’s been establishing this all along the word from heaven v the word on earth

“And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:24-25, 28‬ ‭

Christs work was actually finished before he died the cross was about his glorification

“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬



Jesus death doesn’t change any of his words it makes them permanent and irrevocable . Like when a person has a will and they die no one can ever change thier words they are eternally binding salvation has everything to do with how we receive what Jesus has done both his death and his word

By the way there’s no difference in a “ Hebrew Christian “ and a gentile Christian whatever is on the New Testament is for Christians Hebrew or not

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Does this mean we don’t have a choice?

A few years ago, I read the entire Bible in a timeline, chronological order with the express purpose of recording all passages that indicate the Power of the Lord. I also searched for moments of Mind Control over us humans. I also logged all passages where God takes responsibility for events on earth. With hundreds upon hundreds of passages logged and recorded, I came to the easy conclusion that God is in control of all things, including our belief in Him.

if that’s the case brother why send the gospel out to people and say whoever believes will Be saved?

God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved, but we mere humans do not have the ability to know who will respond and who will not respond. This is why we much preach the Gospel to each person . . . we are looking for the one person out of, say, 10,000, that has ears to hear and eyes to see the True Gospel of Christ. Apparently, we merely plant Seeds and it is God and the Spirit who makes the Seed grow.

If it’s all predetermined and no one can respond to the gospel why kill

God created the Canaanites, and more specifically, those of the Seven Nations, to be completely destroyed and wiped out. When God killed in the Old Testament, many of those who died were abominations, those who came from the fallen angels / the Nephelim, etc. These creations are a part of God's Plan, which is that He will rescue His Children from the Evil Sinful Nature. The Seven Nations, Babylon, etc, these are reflective of the Sin Nature and how Christ redeems us from Captivity . . . from being taken Captive by the Curse that stems from Adam and Eve.

We must be careful not to view the body in our limited way. Death is the passage by which we must take if we are to partake in Heaven. Death is not a bad thing . . . it is necessary if we are to be known by Christ, and to be like Christ in His death.

are you saying that no one can choose to believe the gospel and choose to be baptized and be saved?

I am saying that without God, no one would come to Him. We are enabled to come to Him, or, we are awakened to the Truth. This is what each of the physical healings represents in the NT. All of John chapter 9 shows that all healings are a reflection of the healing of the Human Heart. It is this Circumcision of Heart that causes a person to see and know the Truth, and when a person understands this Truth, it will be impossible to deny it.

 

[JaumeJ]

After experiencing terrible heart ache., I raised my hand to heaven in a closed room and said, "You are Who You are," if you are good and good is going to come out of all of this wickedness and oppression, I would like to know Who you are, and I may even choose to serve you be it possible or necessary>"

The room was locked, and I vowed not to leave until I received an answer, and not to eat either. I did not kow I had said I was goinng to fast.

Right away, I fell into a deep sleep. It waas given to me what I was to do in a dream. No, I did not understand yet but I was given to believe it all to be from our Maker.

The following day while pondering the dream I kept thinking, saying in my heart, "Wow, man is really evil. He is just plain wicked. HEY! iI AME A MAN! YOU ARE IT!"

Everything turned to Light, and the Light came into me. I knew I had met God. I Everything seems to be right. It was. I turned around from where I had intended to go and ran back to the Student Union where I joined my very good friend, Shelly. All I could say when he had asked what happened to me is "God's Spirit came into me, your God, Yahweh."

That night, in a campus coffee house, "The Red Herring," a book came into my hands.. long story. After reading just a line or two in the page it was opened to, I found myself say "The is right, and that is absolutely right." I looked to the top of the page. It was Isaiah.

The following day I went to the Student Book Store and purchased my own copy of this particular version, "The Oxford Study Bible."

Jesus-Yeshua has been my Lord, Savior and generally, my Boss ever since..

So Yes, the Fasther draws people to the Son. All blessing in the love of Jesus.

 

[JaumeJ]

The Father draws men to Jesus.