WHICH Bible "version" Is Authorized By God?

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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A other dumb thing to say! Tyndall and the KJV committee all knew that you can't translate word for word from Greek to English. In some places, King James required a direct word for word, and you end up with things like "heap coals of burning fire," instead of "heap burning coals." Romans 12:20
Isn't turning a post-position (case) into a preposition still 'word for word'?
Since we have the KJV, no need for further translations.
What did they need the KJV for?

They had the Bishop's Bible, the Geneva Bible, and the Douay–Rheims?

Before that, they had the Latin Vulgate. Why did they need an English Bible? And why did they need the Latin if they had the Greek? And why did the Gospel need to be preached in Greek when the Hebrew and Aramaic languages existed?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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What did they need the KJV for?

They had the Bishop's Bible, the Geneva Bible, and the Douay–Rheims?

Before that, they had the Latin Vulgate. Why did they need an English Bible? And why did they need the Latin if they had the Greek? And why did the Gospel need to be preached in Greek when the Hebrew and Aramaic languages existed?
God's word was being preserved through those means but was not completed until the KJV 1611.
 
Mar 23, 2021
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This is total nonsense. If you spoke any other language, you would know that you cannot translate word for word, ever! My Greek teacher, Bill Mounce, who has been on most of the modern Translation committees, and written many commentaries, used to scoff and people who say this.

Even translating modern languages m, you cant do word fir word. For example, in French (which I am fluent in!) la maison Blanche translates directly into English:

La maison blanche.
The house white.

That is bad English, because we say:

The white house. That is proper English. Further, the fact that maison is feminine in French is untranslatable to English. Same with genders in both Hebrew and Greek!

Hebrew has issues with verbs, plus it doesn't just have singular and plural, but dual verbs. There is no way dual verbs can ever be directly translated, without adding words. Plus their verb system is very different than in English. They start with a 3 letter root word, made of three consonants. The basic form is Qual, then Piel and a bunch of other forms we do not have. You can't directly translate a Hebrew verb to English.

Greek is much worse. They have noun and adjective cases.
Nominative
Genitive
Dative
Accusative
Vocative (rare, found 9 times in the NT.)

Plus, Greek nouns have three genders, masculine, feminine and neuter. Plus singular and plural. So, most words have 4 cases x 3 genders x 2 numbers. So that is 24 different spelling differences, which vary at the end of the word, and sometimes the consonant, although some words are repeated! The genitive plural for "the" uses " tone" for each plural gender. I believe there are 17 different forms of "the" in Greek, as some are used twice, too.

The position of the word in English in the sentence determines whether it is the nominative -subject, or predicate, (unless it is a predicate nominative). The direct object in English is the accusative in Greek, the Dative the indirect object, and Genitive is used for possession. Greek would translate "the friend of his". We would likely say, "his friend." Or "the boy's father", with the apostrophe showing possession

In Greek, the most important thing in the sentence is thrown forward. So, the direct object could be the first part of the sentence, with article and descriptive adjectives agreeing in gender, case and number. The subject might end the sentence in Greek, and it is determined by the endings on the words, like other cases. If a Greek sentence is in some kind of reversed or different word order, in English, you would have a sentence that made no sense in English if you didn't reorder the sentence, plus move around the adjectives adverbs etc. It simply is not possible to keep the same order from Greek to English. German is much better, because it has cases and 3 genders, too. But it is a bit watered down and less forms than Greek.

Anyway, don't make stupid statements about things you have never studied and know nothing about. Anyone who says the KJV is "word for word" has never studied Greek! And I didn't get into the huge differences in verbs. Verbs are about time in English, the are about aspect in Greek. And so much more!
I learned a lot from this post, Angela. Thank you.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Psalm 12:6-7KJV
6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

It amazes me how you keep posting this verse, and still don't understand what it is saying.

It is NOT stating that God will preserve His words forever; it says He will preserve FROM a certain generation.

Then again, cults do have a tendency to blind their adherents to the truth, while telling them the distorted message is the truth.
 
M

MoonCresta

Guest
I agree that the KJV is great, and it is the one I shall read - mainly because it is the oldest version that I can read and understand. I certainly do not trust modern translators. Also, the KJV is so sublime in it's writing - it's gorgeous!
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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God's word was being preserved through those means but was not completed until the KJV 1611.
Show me in the Bible where this is taught. Jude says to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. Kjvonlyism was not taught by anyone in scripture.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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When it comes to the KJV as being 'the best of all translations', I pity those Christians that speak only Japanese, or Taiwanese or Filipino, or Eskimolian, etc.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Show me in the Bible where this is taught. Jude says to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. Kjvonlyism was not taught by anyone in scripture.
Are you asserting that God gave us His word, promised to preserve it for us, commanded that we live by every word, but did not preserve every word for us today? If we don’t have His holy, pure words then what are we accountable to?
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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what are you even talking about?
Exactly. What are you even talking about?

Think about how you would translate these English phrases into a Semitic language -say Arabic.
That's presuming you know both Arabic & English.
It's vital that the people reading the text in the target language - Arabic, understand WHAT IT MEANS.
Would it be honest of you as a translator to give a word-for word translation for............


I'm feeling under the weather
At the end of the day
Your eyes are bigger than your stomach
They are over the moon
Let's cut corners
You're going to have to bite the bullet
The devil is in the details
He is bent out of shape
I can't wrap my head around it
Don't get your knickers in a twist
We'll cross that bridge when we come to it
I made it by the skin of my teeth
A piece of cake
Once in a blue moon
Break a leg
The whole nine yards
Don't let the cat out of the bag
The elephant in the room
Have your cake & eat it too.
Throw caution to the wind
The best thing since sliced bread
Burning bridges
Storm in a teacup
Bit off more than I could chew.
Having a whale of a time
Right as rain
Actions speak louder than words.
A bird in the hand
Raining cats & dogs
He was playing Hamlet last night.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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When it comes to the KJV as being 'the best of all translations', I pity those Christians that speak only Japanese, or Taiwanese or Filipino, or Eskimolian, etc.
God sent His word to a specific group of people for thousands of years. Do you pity all those people who never received God’s word? Where’s your outcry over that?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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However, that does not describe the KJV.
Isn't turning a post-position (case) into a preposition still 'word for word'?
I would say that switching word order anywhere, means that you are no longer translating word for word. Even in the case of Genitive going from "a book of hers" to "her book," is not word for word anymore, although it is better English. The sending language is either Koine Greek, Biblical Hebrew or Aramaic.
These are not the same word order, hence, they cannot be word for word:

A book of hers
Her book.

The thing about word for word, is that it mirrors the receiving language. That results in bad English. Whereas as dynamic translations give more attention to the receiving language, which in English, in this case!

I will see if I can find something on that. I've also been looking at word order as I read my Greek Bible. Almost every sentence has word order that doesn't make sense in English. I've been translating Greek for over 10 years. I got used to searching sentences to see what had to be reordered long ago. So I don't notice it anymore. But if I concentrate, it just jumps off the page.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Word for word translations use the words written, dynamic thought involves the translator second guessing what may have been in the mind of the author when using those words.

I'll say this again [with patience and forebearance] if you believe salvation is a top to bottom work of God your understanding of scriptures will be very different from someone who believes that salvation is a co-operation between man and God.

Reformation doctrine was salvation by grace through faith [not our own] and this was the mind set of Tynedale and those who translated the KJ. Some time after the reformation the doctrine of human freewill was introduced to the reformed churches, which is actually a heark back to Roman Catholic theology. This doctrine is now the overwhelmingly predominant belief of modern theologians.

It colours the way folks read the scriptures.
I totally disagree with you! Translations do not influence our theology. (Excepting heretical versions like the JW Bible!)

In fact, theology influences the way you translate. I'm not Arminian. I just never see verses that might remotely point to the possibility that we can lose our salvation when I translate from Greek, my theology, being Reformed, influences the words I choose. Same with eschatology.

Did you even look at the examples above?

I'll look tomorrow for examples so you can see you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Did you ever study Koine Greek or Hebrew? Of course not! Why would you when you have the so-called perfect translation right in your hands?! Ignorance is bliss!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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In fact, theology influences the way you translate. I'm not Arminian. I just never see verses that might remotely point to the possibility that we can lose our salvation when I translate from Greek, my theology, being Reformed, influences the words I choose. Same with eschatology.
Your theology influences the words you choose? Wow! My theology is based upon God's words, not the other way around. You got it backwards Angela. If God's word goes against my theology, I better change my theology to match what God has said.

This right here is the danger of scholarship. Period.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Are you asserting that God gave us His word, promised to preserve it for us, commanded that we live by every word, but did not preserve every word for us today? If we don’t have His holy, pure words then what are we accountable to?
I am saying these teachings of scripture do not support your theory that the translation of your choice is some special way God preserves his word.

The 'word of God's does not exactly equal 'the Bible' in scripture. The word of the Lord came to many prophets. Some wrote some of the prophesies down. Others did not. The preached gospel message is also the 'word of God's.

The scriptures were given in Greek, Hebrew and a little Aramaic. Most of us use translations of the scriptures.