Was the crucifixion that Jesus endured the worst possible suffering a human could experience?
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Suffering is a relative experience. One cannot know good times without bad times, et vice versa. The contrast between good and bad is the measure of our suffering. To draw back to the original question of this thread: being in absolute fidelity with God would be the absolutely best, good, experience. if Jesus did truly feel a disconnect from God the Father, the contrast those states of being (and the suffering that would result from that) would bring the worst possible suffering that a human could experience.
Alright then, we can agree to disagree then. I take Jesus's words literally there.
When the full weight of sin was on Jesus, he deliberately let us know that he was forsaken by God, so that we will understand, thru the divine exchange, that we will never be forsaken by God.
But once God finishing judging sin on Jesus, Jesus was still alive and could utter the word Father once again, to let us know that, in this case, the sacrifice was greater than the sin.
When the full weight of sin was on Jesus, he deliberately let us know that he was forsaken by God, so that we will understand, thru the divine exchange, that we will never be forsaken by God.
But once God finishing judging sin on Jesus, Jesus was still alive and could utter the word Father once again, to let us know that, in this case, the sacrifice was greater than the sin.
I believe that when the full weight of sin was on Jesus, he deliberately let us know that he was forsaken by God, so that we will understand, thru the divine exchange, that we will never be forsaken by God.
But once God finishing judging sin on Jesus, Jesus was still alive and could utter the word Father once again, to let us know that, in this case, the sacrifice was greater than the sin.
You can see the contrast between Elijah and the prophets of Baal in 1 Kings. In that instance, the fire of God's judgement consumed the sacrifice and even the 12 stones.
But for Christ, he could endure the judgement for all of our sins, and yet still be alive at the end. Praise the Lord!
But once God finishing judging sin on Jesus, Jesus was still alive and could utter the word Father once again, to let us know that, in this case, the sacrifice was greater than the sin.
You can see the contrast between Elijah and the prophets of Baal in 1 Kings. In that instance, the fire of God's judgement consumed the sacrifice and even the 12 stones.
But for Christ, he could endure the judgement for all of our sins, and yet still be alive at the end. Praise the Lord!
No, actually the Father will not forsake his children (any of them) because he is a true and Holy Father. He didn't forsake Christ.
Neither the Father nor the Father's Spirit forsook Jesus at any time. It is clear that Jesus was only quoting Psalms not speaking those words as if they applied directly to his situation. At no time did the Father forsake the Son. I believe he most likely spoke the entire chapter and that it was a sign for us to go to Psalms and read this prophecy. The words about being forsaken come from what David feared, not Christ.
Christ never addressed his Father by saying "God" he always used "Father" when speaking to or praying to Him proving that he was not speaking to his Father when he said those things on the cross. He was indeed teaching.
Have you ever quoted scripture? Does it mean you are saying those words and that they apply to your life? I've quoted that same portion in Psalms but didn't mean that God forsook me. Christ probably quoted the entire chapter but even if he stopped with that one verse it means that he was fulfilling the prophecy of Messiah and dying for us as we see in that chapter. It was David that felt God had forsaken him and it wasn't true. God didn't forsake David and he didn't forsake his own son.
Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
He wasn't talking to his Father but quoting scripture to show prophecy had been fulfilled. Not everything in the Psalms 22 is Messianic prophetically speaking.
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Christ didn't cry in the day time and his Father certainly heard him when he did speak to Him. David said God didn't hear yet Paul wrote that when Christ prayed in the garden, he was heard!
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
If God will never leave or forsake us, why think he forsook his own son who is God as well?
Some claim Christ was made sin (a figure of speech that means he was the sin offering NOT that he was sin) and that somehow meant the Father couldn't stand him or had to look away or something like that but the truth is God can be in the presence of any sinner whether literally or spiritually. He spent time with satan himself in heaven with no issues. The Father wouldn't have any reason at all to abandon or forsake his own Son! God fellowshipped with sinners like David and Moses and countless others. God won't fellowship with those that don't love him. Only those would he forsake and only because they forsake him first which is similar to when God forsook Israel. He only did so because they had committed religious adultery and fornication with false gods.
Let's ask ourselves who really benefits from the theory that God the Father can forsake God the Son ie: one person of the Trinity forsaking another person of the Trinity? Satan benefits! Anti-Trinitarians benefit. It shows a weak Trinity who can turn their back against themselves yet in Job we see God having multiple conversations with the most evil, sinful being that has ever existed. So would God really turn his face from his own beloved Son and not turn his face from satan? Seriously, the doctrines people believe in astonish me at times!
Mat 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
About the 9th hour Christ supposedly exclaims that God has forsaken him yet in Luke at the same time we see something quite different:
Luk 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
So was he forsaken because God could not stand the sin he bore or was he confident he was about to be received into the hands of his Father who did not have his back turned to him and who was not forsaking him at all?
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The Lord never left or abandoned Christ according to this.
Clarke:
For David speaketh concerning him - The quotation here is made from Psa_16:8-11 (note), which contains a most remarkable prophecy concerning Christ, every word of which applies to him, and to him exclusively.
Gill:
Acts 2:25
For David speaketh concerning him,.... The Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, in Psa_16:8. The whole psalm belongs to the Messiah, and everything concerning the person in it agrees with him; such as his trust in God, Psa_16:1 as he was man and Mediator; his very great regard to the saints, and delight in them, Psa_16:2 his disregard to others who were hastening after another God, or another Saviour, whose sacrifices, as an high priest, he would not offer up, nor make intercession for them, Psa_16:4 his exceeding great satisfaction in having the God of Israel for his portion, and in having his lot cast among his peculiar people, who were a delightful inheritance to him, Psa_16:5 his thankfulness for advice and direction in the time of his sorrows and sufferings
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
The disciples would abandon Christ but the Father never would! This is prophecy and Jesus is not a false prophet so his words are true. The disciples would leave him but the Father would not.
Ask yourself who benefits from the idea that one person of the Trinity forsook another, that the Trinity isn't fully united and one person of the Trinity showed the same type of wrath God shows to his morally evil enemies.
Neither the Father nor the Father's Spirit forsook Jesus at any time. It is clear that Jesus was only quoting Psalms not speaking those words as if they applied directly to his situation. At no time did the Father forsake the Son. I believe he most likely spoke the entire chapter and that it was a sign for us to go to Psalms and read this prophecy. The words about being forsaken come from what David feared, not Christ.
Christ never addressed his Father by saying "God" he always used "Father" when speaking to or praying to Him proving that he was not speaking to his Father when he said those things on the cross. He was indeed teaching.
Have you ever quoted scripture? Does it mean you are saying those words and that they apply to your life? I've quoted that same portion in Psalms but didn't mean that God forsook me. Christ probably quoted the entire chapter but even if he stopped with that one verse it means that he was fulfilling the prophecy of Messiah and dying for us as we see in that chapter. It was David that felt God had forsaken him and it wasn't true. God didn't forsake David and he didn't forsake his own son.
Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
He wasn't talking to his Father but quoting scripture to show prophecy had been fulfilled. Not everything in the Psalms 22 is Messianic prophetically speaking.
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Christ didn't cry in the day time and his Father certainly heard him when he did speak to Him. David said God didn't hear yet Paul wrote that when Christ prayed in the garden, he was heard!
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
If God will never leave or forsake us, why think he forsook his own son who is God as well?
Some claim Christ was made sin (a figure of speech that means he was the sin offering NOT that he was sin) and that somehow meant the Father couldn't stand him or had to look away or something like that but the truth is God can be in the presence of any sinner whether literally or spiritually. He spent time with satan himself in heaven with no issues. The Father wouldn't have any reason at all to abandon or forsake his own Son! God fellowshipped with sinners like David and Moses and countless others. God won't fellowship with those that don't love him. Only those would he forsake and only because they forsake him first which is similar to when God forsook Israel. He only did so because they had committed religious adultery and fornication with false gods.
Let's ask ourselves who really benefits from the theory that God the Father can forsake God the Son ie: one person of the Trinity forsaking another person of the Trinity? Satan benefits! Anti-Trinitarians benefit. It shows a weak Trinity who can turn their back against themselves yet in Job we see God having multiple conversations with the most evil, sinful being that has ever existed. So would God really turn his face from his own beloved Son and not turn his face from satan? Seriously, the doctrines people believe in astonish me at times!
Mat 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
About the 9th hour Christ supposedly exclaims that God has forsaken him yet in Luke at the same time we see something quite different:
Luk 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
So was he forsaken because God could not stand the sin he bore or was he confident he was about to be received into the hands of his Father who did not have his back turned to him and who was not forsaking him at all?
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The Lord never left or abandoned Christ according to this.
Clarke:
For David speaketh concerning him - The quotation here is made from Psa_16:8-11 (note), which contains a most remarkable prophecy concerning Christ, every word of which applies to him, and to him exclusively.
Gill:
Acts 2:25
For David speaketh concerning him,.... The Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, in Psa_16:8. The whole psalm belongs to the Messiah, and everything concerning the person in it agrees with him; such as his trust in God, Psa_16:1 as he was man and Mediator; his very great regard to the saints, and delight in them, Psa_16:2 his disregard to others who were hastening after another God, or another Saviour, whose sacrifices, as an high priest, he would not offer up, nor make intercession for them, Psa_16:4 his exceeding great satisfaction in having the God of Israel for his portion, and in having his lot cast among his peculiar people, who were a delightful inheritance to him, Psa_16:5 his thankfulness for advice and direction in the time of his sorrows and sufferings
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
The disciples would abandon Christ but the Father never would! This is prophecy and Jesus is not a false prophet so his words are true. The disciples would leave him but the Father would not.
Ask yourself who benefits from the idea that one person of the Trinity forsook another, that the Trinity isn't fully united and one person of the Trinity showed the same type of wrath God shows to his morally evil enemies.
The words of Jesus should be taken literally, and figuratively, and metaphorically, Prophetically, BUT always Contextually.
If you read Matthew 5:27-29 I guess you need to cut off a hand or pluck it out to keep one from going to hell.
Jesus is not saying that. But it would be a SMALL PRICE TO Pay "IF" it would keep you out of hell.
If you read Matthew 5:27-29 I guess you need to cut off a hand or pluck it out to keep one from going to hell.
Jesus is not saying that. But it would be a SMALL PRICE TO Pay "IF" it would keep you out of hell.
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Jesus was forsaken by those he died for but not by the Father he lives for
This is an important point because the enemy seeks to devalue Jesus and rendering him powerless on the cross is to his advantage
So they also say (Some of them) that he also was tortured in hell as well. This is demonic doctrine obviously and clearly
He brought himself to the point of weakness but he never became weak, he overcame everything
We should be focusing on the overcoming of everything from the place of weakness, not that he was overcome. The small difference is life and death. Some are being led astray by heretical teaching, but try and challenge these teachers and you will find out that they do not like it - they REALLY do not like it. I mean they will HATE YOU. Wake up
This is an important point because the enemy seeks to devalue Jesus and rendering him powerless on the cross is to his advantage
So they also say (Some of them) that he also was tortured in hell as well. This is demonic doctrine obviously and clearly
He brought himself to the point of weakness but he never became weak, he overcame everything
We should be focusing on the overcoming of everything from the place of weakness, not that he was overcome. The small difference is life and death. Some are being led astray by heretical teaching, but try and challenge these teachers and you will find out that they do not like it - they REALLY do not like it. I mean they will HATE YOU. Wake up
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i think that the reason that Jesus is loved was because he showed us what true love is
nothing really can take away the full measure of that love
it is what calls into the heart of those he calls to follow him
Jesus calls certain people to follow him and they cannot resist forever, he calls them and then they have to decide why he called them out of love for them
nothing really can take away the full measure of that love
it is what calls into the heart of those he calls to follow him
Jesus calls certain people to follow him and they cannot resist forever, he calls them and then they have to decide why he called them out of love for them
If Jesus had been truly forsaken, He would not have resurrected to continue His eternal life.
Those who will be forsaken will not attain to life ever after. They shall suffer the second death.
If one cannot understand the purpose of Jesus' death, they do not understand Christianity.
Those who will be forsaken will not attain to life ever after. They shall suffer the second death.
If one cannot understand the purpose of Jesus' death, they do not understand Christianity.