WHICH Bible "version" Is Authorized By God?

[Angela53510]

I haven't read a new translation for 30 years what I gave was a type of the subtlety which was the reason I shun them not an exact example.

It is the kind of thing we see.

So you made a firm statement of what was wrong with modern Bibles, and threw in an example to boot! Except, you have never read a modern Bible, and therefore you admit you just made it up to make your point!

In your 30 years of reading the KJV which I would bet you don't understand a lot of the words, you must have never had to grapple with ethics. I think you need to read some books on Ethics. I took a whole course for my MDiv, did a lot of research, wrote papers on the subject, and read a lot of books besides the texts. And of course, found many examples in Scripture as to lack of ethics, but also being ethical. You may not be able to go to school, but you can certainly pick up some Christian books on ethics, and learn how what you just did is terribly unethical.

To be unethical includes things like making up examples which you have never seen to win the argument. Talk about being on the devil's side! Do you know another word which could be substituted for "making up things?" I do, and the word is "bald faced lie!"

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44.

Stop being stuck in a Bible you don't understand and you have learn to live as a Christian. Pray that God will develop in you the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I read this verse in the second year I was a Christian, in 1982. I felt very convicted that I was more the in the "fleshly side" as mentioned in Gal. 5:19-212.

"19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

When I read the following verses I knew this was what I needed in my life, instead of the acts of the flesh above. This verse I have been working on for 38 years. God has moved me to places I never wanted to go, to teach me the truth of each fruit. I have changed radically, and I know the Holy Spirit will continue to sanctify me and transform me into the image of Christ!

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Gal 5:22-23.

How about you? Instead of being stuck in a Bible you don't understand, you find a modern version, and begin to pray for the Holy Spirit to change you from a liar to some who is faithful and honest above all.

 

[Evmur]

So you made a firm statement of what was wrong with modern Bibles, and threw in an example to boot! Except, you have never read a modern Bible, and therefore you admit you just made it up to make your point!

In your 30 years of reading the KJV which I would bet you don't understand a lot of the words, you must have never had to grapple with ethics. I think you need to read some books on Ethics. I took a whole course for my MDiv, did a lot of research, wrote papers on the subject, and read a lot of books besides the texts. And of course, found many examples in Scripture as to lack of ethics, but also being ethical. You may not be able to go to school, but you can certainly pick up some Christian books on ethics, and learn how what you just did is terribly unethical.

To be unethical includes things like making up examples which you have never seen to win the argument. Talk about being on the devil's side! Do you know another word which could be substituted for "making up things?" I do, and the word is "bald faced lie!"

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44.

Stop being stuck in a Bible you don't understand and you have learn to live as a Christian. Pray that God will develop in you the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I read this verse in the second year I was a Christian, in 1982. I felt very convicted that I was more the in the "fleshly side" as mentioned in Gal. 5:19-212.

"19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

When I read the following verses I knew this was what I needed in my life, instead of the acts of the flesh above. This verse I have been working on for 38 years. God has moved me to places I never wanted to go, to teach me the truth of each fruit. I have changed radically, and I know the Holy Spirit will continue to sanctify me and transform me into the image of Christ!

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Gal 5:22-23.

How about you? Instead of being stuck in a Bible you don't understand, you find a modern version, and begin to pray for the Holy Spirit to change you from a liar to some who is faithful and honest above all.

My dear you do not have love, joy, peace [forebearance?] kindness, etc

... don't kid yourself.

There was nothing wrong morally with my example for it is exactly the reason why I put aside the new translations.

I actually read the ARS but only because being steeped in the KJV I know it's weaknesses and foibles. I understand the english of the KJ perfectly well.

I also like the Living bible which is a paraphrase but openly so. Modern translations are paraphrases but they don't tell you.

 

[Evmur]

What I see is a lot of falsification designed to ruin the reputation of good Bibles and control people.

how? how? dear me

 

[Evmur]

I’m not sure what Armenian is brother so
I’m not sure if I agree

my idea is that Jesus and the apostles are the ones who have already interpreted scripture for us in the New Testament and we should learn what they had to say and believe those things

The Old Testament has revelation that shows us it’s meaning and how it applies to all people of the world . It’s the New Testament , the revelation of the old the truth and everlasting things in Christ

I don’t believe we are meant to re interpret what the New Testament declares , but that they were given revelation to preach the gospel to all the world in the scripture. And now were
Meant to learn and believe those things they taught us who are the church that believes those thkngs

any interpretation that doesn’t agree with scripture seems to me to be off the mark

the Old Testament is this the creation

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and the New Testament is this

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5‬ ‭

the Old Testament is this

“And God saw the light, that it was good:

and God divided the light from the darkness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and the new is this

“And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:5, 9-10, 12-13‬ ‭

and separating light from dark

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭

Christ is the savior but to reject him means certain damnation he is separating the good the light from the darkness upon the world

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19-20‬ ‭

“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So his disciples who believe the gospel and follow him

“Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:14, 16‬ ‭

and those who follow them who follow him , the church in the wicked world become the children of the light the children of the good the children of God

“While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the Old Testament God who created everything in the beginning has now spoken the gospel into hearts of faith to create us in righteousness through recognizing and believing in the light of the gospel

“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,

hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my bumbling point is the New Testament is the correct interpretation of the Old Testament it’s meant to be that way both witness of the gospel

All good bro.

The argument is exactly the same as the argument raging in the US right now about the constitution and the bill of rights. Are these to be kept and adhered to as they written or are they to be progressively interpreted according to what folks think the framers may have meant?

It's the same argument.

 

[Truth7t7]

In a truncated version of one of Nee's books, I read his ideas about church structure and ministry roles. While there might be a detail here or there I might not see quite the same, he pretty much followed the text of scripture.

Nee believed in plural elders. I am not sure if he makes the exact point, but he may have equated elders of the church with bishops. The scripture does, for example in the words of Paul in Acts 20:28. Nee believed in a plurality of elders in the local church, men raised up from within the local church. This was the same thing I also saw in scripture, so I appreciated that point. One thing I disagreed with him is the idea of the elders being the first converts in a new church.

Nee also believed that the Spirit could work through the church to send out apostles like in Acts 13. Since, in Ephesians 4, 'apostles' were given after the ascension, Nee drew a distinction between apostles before and after the ascension, seeing Paul and Barnabas as prototypical of post-ascension apostles. Nee also believed in the ministry of prophets and teachers in the local church.

The book I had was the shortened version of concerning our mission put out by Living Streams. I think Witness Lee went off in a little different direction, at least in his understanding of apostleship. He had this idea about a generation having an apostle, which was a different concept from the idea of the church planter sent from the Lord that Nee taught in what I read.

According to some Living Streams literature, Watchman Nee also called the clergy role of Protestantism 'Nicolaitanism.' That idea came in through the Plymouth brethren, and as far as I can tell originated with the Christodelphians if not before. The idea is based on a folk etymology type argument that since 'Nicolaitanism' literally has to do with conquering the people, and the word contains a morepheme from which 'laity' is derived (though it did not mean 'laity' as opposed to clergy at that time) that it refers to dominating the laity. But there is a church tradition that it refers to a group of libertines named after Nicholas.

But my impression of Watchman Nee's writings contradicts your assertions. I think you overstate your case.

(Watchman Nee) Replaces The Biblical Hierarchy Bishop/Deacon with the term (A Deputy Authority) all believers are equal.

(I Am No Different From All The Other Brothers And Sisters)

Yes Watchman Nee, And The Local Church Movement, "Denies" The Biblical Structure Of Bishop/Deacon As Seen In 1 Timothy 3:1-16KJV, And replaces this with (A Deputy Authority)

(Authority And Submission)
Watchman Nee, Chapter 12, Sec 4

All of God’s deputy authorities must live before God and learn to fellowship with Him. You must be dealt with by Him, and there must be scars upon your body. When you speak to the saints or in the church, you must not insert your self into your speaking but must have the assurance that there is authority behind your words. Never be deceived to think that you have any authority in yourself. Never think that any authority has its source in you. You must forever remember that God is the only One who has the authority, and no one else. The Bible says clearly that all authority is of God.
If there is any authority in me today, such authority comes from God. I am only the channel through which authority flows. Other than this distinction, I am the same as everyone else; I am no different from the most foolish man. What sets me apart from others and gives me the authority is God, not anything in myself. Therefore, we have to learn to fear God and to fellowship with Him. This is not a light matter. We should tell the Lord, “I am no different from all the other brothers and sisters.” If God has arranged for us to bear some authority and learn to be a deputy authority, we have to learn to live before Him and have constant fellowship with Him. We have to ask Him to show us His heart’s desire. Only when we see something before God can we minister it to the brothers and sisters, and only then are we qualified to be a deputy authority.

 

[Truth7t7]

What you fail to understand, is that Dino is a Canadian. (So am I, for that matter). Our society and government are quite different than America. We use the British Parliamentary system, and Canadians are more educated. We are taught to get along, not take our guns and shoot those we do not like. There is no right to carry arms, or for that matter, we are denied some freedoms of speech that Americans have. There are many things I like better in Canada than the US, but I am informed enough to realize that America has some features I regret not having, including the electoral college. On the other hand, our medical system is so much better than the American. Everyone in Canada is insured for free. No one does without. Prescriptions are also made so that people who are too sick to work, can be supplemented to get even very expensive medications. (I am one. My biologic costs $2200 a month, but my copay is $0. However, the same drug in the US will cost between $10,000 and $65,000, depending upon what drug it is. A Rituxan infusion in Canada costs $2000 for each of two infusions every 6 months. My copay in Alberta was $25 each for the 2 infusions. In the US, I had 2 friends on this drug. The one in California paid $55,000 for both infusions, and the one in Chicago paid $65,000 for it. And don't go on about how it is R&D costs, as Canadian companies to a lot of R&D.

In Canada, Dino and I, are considered to be Conservative. If you want to know what a Canadian Liberal is like these days, google Justin Trudeau, and his lies, scams and utter stupidity. He has driven Canada so deeply into debt, it may be almost impossible to get out of. He has stolen from the Canadian taxpayer for his friends and family, and then manipulated the political system in some sneaky way, every time he was discovered to be breaching the trust of Canadians.

In other words, insulting someone in Canada by saying they are a liberal, is one of the worst things you could say about someone. It is an insult of the worst degree. I am radically right wing in Canada, but when I took a course from my American theological school about politics, I found myself running into cultural barriers with the other students, which they considered to be Christian, when in fact, they were totally cultural. The second amendment gives Americans the right to bear arms. No other country in the world has that. Millions of Christians in the world today, live without guns ever entering into their lives. But Americans make this cultural issue into a religious one, which it is not.

Besides, these petty insults should not be happening at all in this forum. You can rant all you want about which Bible version is best, but when your best post is an attack on one individual, I would challenge your thinking that you are in anyway displaying the fruits of the Spirit. You know: love, joy, peace, patience etc in Gal. 5:22-23. I'm pretty sick of facile name calling, because you do not have a leg to stand on. I will give you your right to your own opinion on this issue, which is not based on facts at all. But when your only defence is throwing out personal insults, you have crossed the line!

I Will Ask Dino The Question Again For A Thrid Time, Unanswered (Twice), Feel Free To Answer Yourself

As a conservative Christian, I openly believe no homosexual should be allowed membership in the Church, whatever denomination it may be?

Question?

Do you believe a practicing homosexual should be allowed membership in the Church, whatever denomination it may be?

 

[notuptome]

I talked about Gordon Fee because he has excellent books, which I have read that don't have a hint of AofG theology in them. A Pamphlet he wrote against the Word Faith he mentions he is Pentecostal, and does not agree with the Word Faith and "claiming" miracles and demanding healing. He did an excellent job of refuting the health and wealth gospel.

My Greek prof was Bill Mounce, who wrote the best first year books on learning Greek. He was also on many translations committees, with Gordon Fee! They are good friends, but Mounce is Wesleyan, having started in the Southern Baptists.

As for me, I am Baptist. I used to only read denominational material, so I could be assured the theology was right. Seminary showed me it was ok to read books written by people from other denominations. But we also learned hermeneutics, and how to discern good theology from bad. I don't need any kind of blinders on me. Instead, God has given me tools to figure the truth for myself. Am I perfect? Of course not! But I allow the Holy Spirit to direct me, and I have found that serving the living God is a delight and joy!

From the little I have read about Fee he is not in agreement with the Pentecostals on the matter of tongues.

I do not think there are any good denominations.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Pilgrimshope]

All good bro.

The argument is exactly the same as the argument raging in the US right now about the constitution and the bill of rights. Are these to be kept and adhered to as they written or are they to be progressively interpreted according to what folks think the framers may have meant?

It's the same argument.

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6:3-5‬ ‭

 

[presidente]

I talked about Gordon Fee because he has excellent books, which I have read that don't have a hint of AofG theology in them. A Pamphlet he wrote against the Word Faith he mentions he is Pentecostal, and does not agree with the Word Faith and "claiming" miracles and demanding healing. He did an excellent job of refuting the health and wealth gospel.

Just curious here. Are you under the impression that A/G theology is 'Word of Faith'? When I was in the denomination, it seemed like an individual here or there held to that movements beliefs, but overall the denomination did not agree with certain aspects of Hagin or Copeland's teachings.

 

[presidente]

There are many things I like better in Canada than the US, but I am informed enough to realize that America has some features I regret not having, including the electoral college.

The electoral college was created to keep the densely populated states from dominating the less populated states, to give more power on a per-state basis as opposed to population. In a way that is less 'democratic.' But I do not think democratic=righteous. There does not seem to be any hint that God sees it that way. In the United States, the electoral college has helped hold back some of the wicked insanity of the left. The tide broke through this time and they are trying to pass legislation to force schools and churches to allow boys who claim to be girls into the girls locker rooms, and a move in the direct of giving a little boy that wants to be a girl hormones to move toward a sex change.... that whole sort of warped transgender thinking. Falsely so-called 'gay marriage' used to be the issue. The Supreme Court forced that on the nation with a ridiculous reinterpretation of the Constitution.

It turns out the wicked crazy philosophy is more popular in the cities, while the more rural states still retain a bit of common sense on these issues. The electoral college has helped reduce the number of 'liberal', 'progressive' presidents we have had, which is a good thing.

 

[presidente]

(Watchman Nee) Replaces The Biblical Hierarchy Bishop/Deacon with the term (A Deputy Authority) all believers are equal.

(I Am No Different From All The Other Brothers And Sisters)

Yes Watchman Nee, And The Local Church Movement, "Denies" The Biblical Structure Of Bishop/Deacon As Seen In 1 Timothy 3:1-16KJV, And replaces this with (A Deputy Authority)

(Authority And Submission)
Watchman Nee, Chapter 12, Sec 4

All of God’s deputy authorities must live before God and learn to fellowship with Him. You must be dealt with by Him, and there must be scars upon your body. When you speak to the saints or in the church, you must not insert your self into your speaking but must have the assurance that there is authority behind your words. Never be deceived to think that you have any authority in yourself. Never think that any authority has its source in you. You must forever remember that God is the only One who has the authority, and no one else. The Bible says clearly that all authority is of God.
If there is any authority in me today, such authority comes from God. I am only the channel through which authority flows. Other than this distinction, I am the same as everyone else; I am no different from the most foolish man. What sets me apart from others and gives me the authority is God, not anything in myself. Therefore, we have to learn to fear God and to fellowship with Him. This is not a light matter. We should tell the Lord, “I am no different from all the other brothers and sisters.” If God has arranged for us to bear some authority and learn to be a deputy authority, we have to learn to live before Him and have constant fellowship with Him. We have to ask Him to show us His heart’s desire. Only when we see something before God can we minister it to the brothers and sisters, and only then are we qualified to be a deputy authority.

I am not sure why you see this as a problem. Don't you believe that any authority that a bishop or elder has derives from God, and is God's authority flowing through that individual? Even in marriage, the book of Ephesians tells wives to submit to husbands 'as to the Lord.'

Where does I Timothy 3 specify that a bishop has any authority that is 'non-deputy', that does not derive from God, and is not God's authority behind him or working through him?

(Watchman Nee) Replaces The Biblical Hierarchy Bishop/Deacon with the term (A Deputy Authority) all believers are equal.

(I Am No Different From All The Other Brothers And Sisters)

Yes Watchman Nee, And The Local Church Movement, "Denies" The Biblical Structure Of Bishop/Deacon As Seen In 1 Timothy 3:1-16KJV, And replaces this with (A Deputy Authority)

(Authority And Submission)
Watchman Nee, Chapter 12, Sec 4

All of God’s deputy authorities must live before God and learn to fellowship with Him. You must be dealt with by Him, and there must be scars upon your body. When you speak to the saints or in the church, you must not insert your self into your speaking but must have the assurance that there is authority behind your words. Never be deceived to think that you have any authority in yourself. Never think that any authority has its source in you. You must forever remember that God is the only One who has the authority, and no one else. The Bible says clearly that all authority is of God.
If there is any authority in me today, such authority comes from God. I am only the channel through which authority flows. Other than this distinction, I am the same as everyone else; I am no different from the most foolish man. What sets me apart from others and gives me the authority is God, not anything in myself. Therefore, we have to learn to fear God and to fellowship with Him. This is not a light matter. We should tell the Lord, “I am no different from all the other brothers and sisters.” If God has arranged for us to bear some authority and learn to be a deputy authority, we have to learn to live before Him and have constant fellowship with Him. We have to ask Him to show us His heart’s desire. Only when we see something before God can we minister it to the brothers and sisters, and only then are we qualified to be a deputy authority.

What is your problem with any of these quotes? In Ephesians 3, Paul describes himself as the 'least of all the saints.' He clearly saw his authority as derived. He repeatedly opens letters pointing out that he is an apostle of Jesus Christ. Acts 13 tells us that he and Barnabas were sent out by the Spirit. His authority came from God. And Paul wrote that if he or an angel of heaven preached any other gospel, let him be accursed. Paul had authority because God sent him and he was acting in line with that calling preaching God's word. And he persuaded others by arguing in favor of the truth, not by saying, "Submit to me because I am the great apostle."

Even in marriage, a wife is supposed to submit to her husband 'as unto the Lord.' The submission is done toward Christ.

Where does I Timothy 3 say anything about whatever your concept of authority is and rule out the idea of a 'deputy authority'?

 

[presidente]

I Will Ask Dino The Question Again For A Thrid Time, Unanswered (Twice), Feel Free To Answer Yourself

As a conservative Christian, I openly believe no homosexual should be allowed membership in the Church, whatever denomination it may be?

Question?

Do you believe a practicing homosexual should be allowed membership in the Church, whatever denomination it may be?

Let's say that there is a man who feels attracted to other men. Maybe his father did not play with him as a kid, and he finds other men attractive. But he does not act on it, puts his faith in Christ, and seeks to live a holy life. Still, he thinks other men are good-looking, has no attraction to female. And he knows if he sits around staring at some man, like a normal man would with a pretty woman, he could develop feelings for him. But he avoids that and lives holy before God.

Are you saying that such a man should not be allowed membership in the church?

Did you realize that evangelical Christians have a different definition of 'homosexual' than the rest of society. When the term 'homosexuall' was coined in German, it had to do with men being attracted to other men. That is what it means to most of society today-- at least to the younger generations whose understanding of the word is more in line with the academic understanding.

The LGBT folks have added layers of false understanding with the idea that everyone is locked into a 'sexual orientation' at birth, and making it a part of their identity.

When fundamentalists say, 'Homosexuals go to Hell', the hearer may think that means because he was 'born that way' (if he believes the LGBT propaganda), or because he can be attracted to other men or she can be attracted to other women, that the preacher says he or she is going to Hell for it.

And in scripture, church membership is kind of automatic. You believe. You get baptized, and you start meeting with the assembling. There is no mention of filling out a membership card or taking membership classes.

 

[Truth7t7]

I am not sure why you see this as a problem. Don't you believe that any authority that a bishop or elder has derives from God, and is God's authority flowing through that individual? Even in marriage, the book of Ephesians tells wives to submit to husbands 'as to the Lord.'

Where does I Timothy 3 specify that a bishop has any authority that is 'non-deputy', that does not derive from God, and is not God's authority behind him or working through him?


What is your problem with any of these quotes? In Ephesians 3, Paul describes himself as the 'least of all the saints.' He clearly saw his authority as derived. He repeatedly opens letters pointing out that he is an apostle of Jesus Christ. Acts 13 tells us that he and Barnabas were sent out by the Spirit. His authority came from God. And Paul wrote that if he or an angel of heaven preached any other gospel, let him be accursed. Paul had authority because God sent him and he was acting in line with that calling preaching God's word. And he persuaded others by arguing in favor of the truth, not by saying, "Submit to me because I am the great apostle."

Even in marriage, a wife is supposed to submit to her husband 'as unto the Lord.' The submission is done toward Christ.

Where does I Timothy 3 say anything about whatever your concept of authority is and rule out the idea of a 'deputy authority'?

(Last Response) We Will Disagree.

(Watchman Nee) and his teachings in (A Deputy Authority) defies Church order, in that it consists of (Women) also being (Deputy Authorities), speaking in the Church, without hierarchy and structure.

1 Timothy 3 speaks directly to the fact that Bishops/Deacons are to be married men, ruling their houses well

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 clearly states women are to be silent in the church, it's a shame for women to speak.

(Watchman Nee) Replaces The Biblical Hierarchy Bishop/Deacon with the term (A Deputy Authority) all believers are equal.

(I Am No Different From All The Other Brothers And Sisters)

Yes Watchman Nee, And The Local Church Movement, "Denies" The Biblical Structure Of Bishop/Deacon As Seen In 1 Timothy 3:1-16KJV, And replaces this with (A Deputy Authority)

(Authority And Submission)
Watchman Nee, Chapter 12, Sec 4

All of God’s deputy authorities must live before God and learn to fellowship with Him. You must be dealt with by Him, and there must be scars upon your body. When you speak to the saints or in the church, you must not insert your self into your speaking but must have the assurance that there is authority behind your words. Never be deceived to think that you have any authority in yourself. Never think that any authority has its source in you. You must forever remember that God is the only One who has the authority, and no one else. The Bible says clearly that all authority is of God.
If there is any authority in me today, such authority comes from God. I am only the channel through which authority flows. Other than this distinction, I am the same as everyone else; I am no different from the most foolish man. What sets me apart from others and gives me the authority is God, not anything in myself. Therefore, we have to learn to fear God and to fellowship with Him. This is not a light matter. We should tell the Lord, “I am no different from all the other brothers and sisters.” If God has arranged for us to bear some authority and learn to be a deputy authority, we have to learn to live before Him and have constant fellowship with Him. We have to ask Him to show us His heart’s desire. Only when we see something before God can we minister it to the brothers and sisters, and only then are we qualified to be a deputy authority.

 

[presidente]

(Last Response) We Will Disagree.

Watchman Nee and his teachings in (A Deputy Authority) defies Church order, in that it consists of (Women) also being (Deputy Authorities), speaking in the Church, without hierarchy and structure.

1 Timothy 3 speaks directly to the fact that Bishops/Deacons are to be married men, ruling their houses well

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 clearly states women are to be silent in the church, it's a shame for women to speak.

Watchman Nee) Replaces The Biblical Hierarchy Bishop/Deacon with the term (A Deputy Authority) all believers are equal.

(I Am No Different From All The Other Brothers And Sisters)

Yes Watchman Nee, And The Local Church Movement, "Denies" The Biblical Structure Of Bishop/Deacon As Seen In 1 Timothy 3:1-16KJV, And replaces this with (A Deputy Authority)

(Authority And Submission)
Watchman Nee, Chapter 12, Sec 4

All of God’s deputy authorities must live before God and learn to fellowship with Him. You must be dealt with by Him, and there must be scars upon your body. When you speak to the saints or in the church, you must not insert your self into your speaking but must have the assurance that there is authority behind your words. Never be deceived to think that you have any authority in yourself. Never think that any authority has its source in you. You must forever remember that God is the only One who has the authority, and no one else. The Bible says clearly that all authority is of God.
If there is any authority in me today, such authority comes from God. I am only the channel through which authority flows. Other than this distinction, I am the same as everyone else; I am no different from the most foolish man. What sets me apart from others and gives me the authority is God, not anything in myself. Therefore, we have to learn to fear God and to fellowship with Him. This is not a light matter. We should tell the Lord, “I am no different from all the other brothers and sisters.” If God has arranged for us to bear some authority and learn to be a deputy authority, we have to learn to live before Him and have constant fellowship with Him. We have to ask Him to show us His heart’s desire. Only when we see something before God can we minister it to the brothers and sisters, and only then are we qualified to be a deputy authority.

You did not address my points. You did the 'broken record' thing.

Nee might not have liked the word 'hierarchy'-- and it could be some of his writings were translated and filtered through the terminology of witness Lee. I am not sure. I think there are non-living-streams sources for some of what he wrote.

I also find that some groups that do not like the word 'hierarchy' still have some of it. I would imagine Living Streams did when Lee was alive, maybe after. Without knowing much about them, I visited a meeting of theirs when I first got to Indonesia. Someone took me. i did not speak Indonesian at the time, and never learned Chinese. An elder did offer some direction. They also were somewhat organized.

There is a sense in which Paul was just a brother. Jesus said to the twelve, also, 'For one is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren.'

Paul's authority derived from the fact that Christ sent him and that he was speaking the word of God. God does not respect any man's person.

If you want to argue that Nee did not believe in the role of elders/bishops or deacons, you would have to quote him to that effect to demonstrate that. From what I read in his writings, he did believe in church elders, but had a low standard, IMO, in how he described their qualifications. I agree that in a new church, 'not a new believer' might have a shorter time span than what we raised in a Christian community might expect. Some estimate maybe two years passed before Paul and Barnabas appointed elders in Acts 14, and some of those churches were newer than the others.

 

[Truth7t7]

Let's say that there is a man who feels attracted to other men. Maybe his father did not play with him as a kid, and he finds other men attractive. But he does not act on it, puts his faith in Christ, and seeks to live a holy life. Still, he thinks other men are good-looking, has no attraction to female. And he knows if he sits around staring at some man, like a normal man would with a pretty woman, he could develop feelings for him. But he avoids that and lives holy before God.

Are you saying that such a man should not be allowed membership in the church?

Did you realize that evangelical Christians have a different definition of 'homosexual' than the rest of society. When the term 'homosexuall' was coined in German, it had to do with men being attracted to other men. That is what it means to most of society today-- at least to the younger generations whose understanding of the word is more in line with the academic understanding.

The LGBT folks have added layers of false understanding with the idea that everyone is locked into a 'sexual orientation' at birth, and making it a part of their identity.

When fundamentalists say, 'Homosexuals go to Hell', the hearer may think that means because he was 'born that way' (if he believes the LGBT propaganda), or because he can be attracted to other men or she can be attracted to other women, that the preacher says he or she is going to Hell for it.

And in scripture, church membership is kind of automatic. You believe. You get baptized, and you start meeting with the assembling. There is no mention of filling out a membership card or taking membership classes.

Question?

Do you believe a practicing homosexual should be allowed membership in the Church, whatever denomination it may be?

 

[Truth7t7]

You did not address my points. You did the 'broken record' thing.

Nee might not have liked the word 'hierarchy'-- and it could be some of his writings were translated and filtered through the terminology of witness Lee. I am not sure. I think there are non-living-streams sources for some of what he wrote.

I also find that some groups that do not like the word 'hierarchy' still have some of it. I would imagine Living Streams did when Lee was alive, maybe after. Without knowing much about them, I visited a meeting of theirs when I first got to Indonesia. Someone took me. i did not speak Indonesian at the time, and never learned Chinese. An elder did offer some direction. They also were somewhat organized.

There is a sense in which Paul was just a brother. Jesus said to the twelve, also, 'For one is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren.'

Paul's authority derived from the fact that Christ sent him and that he was speaking the word of God. God does not respect any man's person.

If you want to argue that Nee did not believe in the role of elders/bishops or deacons, you would have to quote him to that effect to demonstrate that. From what I read in his writings, he did believe in church elders, but had a low standard, IMO, in how he described their qualifications. I agree that in a new church, 'not a new believer' might have a shorter time span than what we raised in a Christian community might expect. Some estimate maybe two years passed before Paul and Barnabas appointed elders in Acts 14, and some of those churches were newer than the others.

(Watchman Nee) and his teachings in (A Deputy Authority) defies Church order, in that it consists of (Women) also being (Deputy Authorities), speaking in the Church

1 Timothy 3 speaks directly to the fact that Bishops/Deacons are to be married men, ruling their houses well

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 clearly states women are to be silent in the church, it's a shame for women to speak.

(Watchman Nee) Replaces The Biblical Bishop/Deacon with the term (A Deputy Authority) all believers are equal.

(I Am No Different From All The Other Brothers And Sisters)

Yes Watchman Nee, And The Local Church Movement, "Denies" The Biblical Structure Of Bishop/Deacon As Seen In 1 Timothy 3:1-16KJV, And replaces this with (A Deputy Authority)

(Authority And Submission)
Watchman Nee, Chapter 12, Sec 4

All of God’s deputy authorities must live before God and learn to fellowship with Him. You must be dealt with by Him, and there must be scars upon your body. When you speak to the saints or in the church, you must not insert your self into your speaking but must have the assurance that there is authority behind your words. Never be deceived to think that you have any authority in yourself. Never think that any authority has its source in you. You must forever remember that God is the only One who has the authority, and no one else. The Bible says clearly that all authority is of God.
If there is any authority in me today, such authority comes from God. I am only the channel through which authority flows. Other than this distinction, I am the same as everyone else; I am no different from the most foolish man. What sets me apart from others and gives me the authority is God, not anything in myself. Therefore, we have to learn to fear God and to fellowship with Him. This is not a light matter. We should tell the Lord, “I am no different from all the other brothers and sisters.” If God has arranged for us to bear some authority and learn to be a deputy authority, we have to learn to live before Him and have constant fellowship with Him. We have to ask Him to show us His heart’s desire. Only when we see something before God can we minister it to the brothers and sisters, and only then are we qualified to be a deputy authority.

 

[bellemira]

I haven't read a new translation for 30 years what I gave was a type of the subtlety which was the reason I shun them not an exact example.

It is the kind of thing we see.

I haven't read all of this thread, but I wonder if the language used by Jesus when teaching the folks of His day has been mentioned.

Did He not speak in the language of the ordinary person (as opposed to the language of 17th Century England?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Critic: "Y'all need to get your stories straight. Either God uses "ungodly" people or He doesn't. You can't have it both ways."

Only ONE Way = The BIBLE Way!:

2Ch 18:21 "And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so."

 

[presidente]

Question?

Do you believe a practicing homosexual should be allowed membership in the Church, whatever denomination it may be?

What if he's 'practicing' being attracted to men, unintentionally, or she is 'practicing' being attracted to women unintentionally, but not acting on it?

In it's original meaning, in academia, and for much of the populace 'homosexual' is about attraction... or now they say 'orientation'-- a concept based on some false assumptions, IMO. Some older folks and probably most American evangelicals use 'homosexual' to mean those who do certain acts.

As far as what you intend to ask goes, if someone engages in fornication, whether they are whoring with men or women, I Corinthians 5 applies. But the issue is not about filling out a form and having some kind of 'church membership' ceremony. That type of 'church membership' is not in the Bible. The fornicator of I Corinthians 5, after the church delivered him over to Satan, would not have been allowed to join in the assembly or break bread with the brethren. But II Corinthians implies it is possible to repent from fornication. Those who repent may be restored to fellowship.

 

[presidente]

I would also like to add that men having sexual desire for other men or women having it for other women is a perverse thing that came into mankind through idolatry. These are not normal desires. But someone who finds himself struggling against a perverse desire, who may struggle for a long or short while, can still be washed, sanctified, and justified. Hebrews 12 mentions struggling against sin. Sometimes resisting sin can be a struggle. That does not mean those who struggle are unsaved.

Many of us men can relate to the idea that we could potentially be attracted to a married woman if she is beautiful, has a great personality. When I was single, if I found a woman attractive and saw a ring on her finger or found out that she was married, she was 'off limits' category and I knew not to entertain any thoughts of interest. But the potential to be attracted is there. For all men, other men should be in the 'off limits' category no matter their marital state. And for all women all other women should be in the 'off limits' category, along with livestock or whatever else. Most of us men are not attracted to other men, presumably, and most women are not attracted to other women like this, presumably... just like we are not attracted to livestock. But we can relate if we compare it to some situation where we might experience attraction.