Not By Works

[Phoneman-777]

On the Lighter Side:

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Romans 9:16 (HCSB)
16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy.

AMEN!

 

[gb9]

other than expressing your hatred of osas, and strongly hinting at how you do not sin, do you have anything constructive to say??

 

[peldom10]

Romans 11:25-27

At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus would return for Israel, and all those who belong to Israel at that time will believe in Christ, and God will forgive the nation's sins collectively, as promised in the New Covenant.

You see... I was sure that would be your reference.
The point is about the Jews upon Christs' return.....years after the AC arrives. 99% could be gone and the balance forgiven.

 

[peldom10]

Your right

That means NO ONE KEEPS or HAS KEPT THE LAW

well wait, one did, his name was Jesus!

Gee you are correct. Now we don't have to see accusations of intent to be perfect.

 

[peldom10]

1 John is definitely one of the favorite books used by people who are against OSAS.

Its strange that OSAS love John 3:16 and use that as their foundation.

Yep...and it does not do the job of support.

 

[Guojing]

You see... I was sure that would be your reference.
The point is about the Jews upon Christs' return.....years after the AC arrives. 99% could be gone and the balance forgiven.

Yes, so right now, if I am a Jew, I would not want to wait for that national forgiveness and the New Covenant to begin for the nation Israel, to have my sins forgiven.

I would enter the Body of Christ now, where there is no difference between Jews and gentiles, thru Paul's gospel of grace in 1 Cor 15:1-4, like everyone of you, to get my sins forgiven NOW.

 

[Guojing]

Yep...and it does not do the job of support.

John 3:16 is the legacy of Billy Graham.

Thanks to him, everyone assumes it is saying "Believe in Jesus only" and you are immediately saved.

 

[VCO]

Er...could you please just tell me what these other commandments are?

You have never had an extreme closeness to GOD in your life, have you ? ? ?

I will tell you a true story about a time I almost went against GOD"S WILL. BUT first, I need to give you some background on HOW HE MOTIVATED ME TO MOVE TO CALIFORNIA. I was working on the PM shift in the Post OFFICE in Nebraska, the state I was born and raised in. This was several years after I had willingly out of Agape LOVE for HIM, surrendered to HIM, after my Third Attempt At SUICIDE. I had a VERY CLOSE REALATIONSHIP with HIM, and would have an ongoing conversation with HIM, anytime I wanted, and HE would answer me with thoughts that Could ONLY COME FROM HIM.

One night in late 86, I was trying to witness to a co-worker, who made it plain that HE DID NOT WANT TO HEAR any more. All of a sudden, GOD gave me a THOUGHT "IT IS FINISHED, Now I want you to move WEST." And everytime I thought about it, HE PUT IT ON MY HEART TO MOVE WEST. I was born and raised in Nebraska, and wanted to stay right there. A few weeks later I got a big PROMOTION to my Dream Job on the DAY SHIFT. BUT I KNEW GOD WANTED ME TO MOVE WEST. I Knew I Would have to walk away from that Dream Job, and Tranfer to somewhere out west. To make this short, I have to skip by several minor miracles, on HOW HE GOT ME TO MOVE TO CALIFORNIA, the Last PLACE I WOULD EVER WANT TO BECOME A RESIDENT. Just so you know, when You transfer in the POST OFFICE, you go back to ZERO on the Seniority List, and I did it twice in California, just to get to the town where HE WANTED ME.

So this open conversation with GOD, was a Norm in my Spiritual Life. HE WAS GUIDING ME TO START A PRISON MININSTRY. But that is not what I WANT to talk to you about. My wife and I decided one summer that I would go get the Grandkids from Nebraska, and bring them out for a vacation in California. I left California, and made it as far as Elko, NEVADA before spending a Night at a motel. Then next morning I was on the ONRAMP to I-80, at 60 M.P.H., when I noticed a Hitch Hiker on the side of the Onramp. I moved to left of that Onramp to go by him, and when I got by him when the LORD YELLED: "PICK HIM UP!", in a deep audible Voice, and I KNEW WHO IT WAS.

That part of my TESTIMONY, I have told to VERY FEW Friends, mostly very close EVANGELICAL Friends. My MUSCLES REACTED INSTANTLY, jammed on the Brakes as hard as hard as I could, without out thinking a bit. I had all four TIres screaming to a stop, and was sitting there SHAKING, when the Hitch Hiker came running up to the car, opened my passenger car door, and asked, "ARE YOU GIVING ME A RIDE?"

I said to the hitch hiker, "YES, YOU GET INTO THE CAR, because the LORD JUST TOLD ME TO GIVE YOU A RIDE." YES, the LORD intended me to Witness to him, no and's, if's, or maybe's.

Like I said, I left out all kinds of minor miracles, that HE had to do for me to get us to California, to start a Prison Ministry, I mean too many to count, but I knew it was because I TOTALLY TRUSTED HIM FOR LITERALLY EVERYTHING, from the moment I Surrendered to HIM the Night I made my third attempt at Suicide, the 29th of Dec. 1977.

 

[VCO]

Gee you are correct. Now we don't have to see accusations of intent to be perfect.

Are YOU READY to answer my QUESTIONS NOW ? ? ?

Do you believe in the HOLY TRINITY ?
And what Denomination do you call HOME ?
And what is New Age Teaching in YOUR MIND ?
And what do you know about BORN AGAIN ?

 

[tribesman]

in order to be an Armenian, you would have to hold to all 5 tenents. If you dont, your really not an arminian.

That's the problem with trying to divide the body into two groups as many do. They say if you reject double predestination. Your an Armenian. If you believe in OSAS you must be a Calvinist.

Niether is true. Thats why these arminian Vs Calvin threads or discussions are useless. They do not get to what people really believe, Instead they try to paint people into a corner os being something they are not.

I would not consider a southern baptist to be arminian. They are baptist.

Does it have to be to divide? It's more to identify so that you understand whom you address when in discussion. When someone basically has an arminian theology then one should not be surprised if people see such as an arminian. When people who hold to such beliefs, save for the teaching that a saved person can lose his salvation, then a term for that is "arminian OSAS", although they themselves will not identify as such (sometimes not even aware of what Arminius taught).

 

[tribesman]

and even baptists in themselves have differing views in some areas. So even trying to put them as a baptist is not really smart. I stopped telling people I was a baptist when I was, Because people would assume I believe things I did not just because I said I was baptist.

Its better to listen and hear what a person says not assume, well they are arminian or catholic or calvinist so they MUST believe this. Thats why so many heated fights get started because of a misunderstanding

You are right that we should listen to the individual and ask what they believe instead of telling them what they believed. Agreed. However, as to get an orientation of certain things we meet, we would be well off to know something about where certain beliefs may have come from.

The baptists got on different tracks quiet early on. We are talking about the 1600s here. There were "free will" or "general" baptists, who basically had an arminian theology, where most however denounced that saved souls could lose their salvation. Then there were Reformed people who began practicing "believer's baptism", these were called "particular" baptists. Basically most of them kept to reformed or calvinistic teaching but differed on the mode of baptism.

Both these groups are divided into many subgroups and then you'd have splinters too and offshoots such as the "Primitive" baptists, which are hyper-calvinist baptists, however they are actually not properly Reformed or calvinist. We have also Seventh-Day baptists who hold unto Saturday "Sabbath-keeping" etc etc. So it's a mixed bag.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gee you are correct. Now we don't have to see accusations of intent to be perfect.

Maybe not.

but we still have to get you to acknowledge perfection is required to earn salvation by the means of obedience

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does it have to be to divide? It's more to identify so that you understand whom you address when in discussion. When someone basically has an arminian theology then one should not be surprised if people see such as an arminian. When people who hold to such beliefs, save for the teaching that a saved person can lose his salvation, then a term for that is "arminian OSAS", although they themselves will not identify as such (sometimes not even aware of what Arminius taught).

That’s the issue, people,see people,who believe in osas as calvinist, when they are not, they see people as arminian when they are not

fo,some reason people seem to think there are three theologies, Catholic arminian and Calvin, and we have to put everyone in one of these three categories,

so everyone thinks they know what the other believes. Yet has no idea what they believe,

so what we get is “you believe this”. With the response. “No I do not believe that, I believe this”. And then the response back of. “ I know what you believe you believe this, it goes on and on and on.

it’s sad that people can’t just listen to the person, instead of trying to put them in some category, and never coming to the knowledge of what that person really believes

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are right that we should listen to the individual and ask what they believe instead of telling them what they believed. Agreed. However, as to get an orientation of certain things we meet, we would be well off to know something about where certain beliefs may have come from.

The baptists got on different tracks quiet early on. We are talking about the 1600s here. There were "free will" or "general" baptists, who basically had an arminian theology, where most however denounced that saved souls could lose their salvation. Then there were Reformed people who began practicing "believer's baptism", these were called "particular" baptists. Basically most of them kept to reformed or calvinistic teaching but differed on the mode of baptism.

Both these groups are divided into many subgroups and then you'd have splinters too and offshoots such as the "Primitive" baptists, which are hyper-calvinist baptists, however they are actually not properly Reformed or calvinist. We have also Seventh-Day baptists who hold unto Saturday "Sabbath-keeping" etc etc. So it's a mixed bag.

And yet as a Baptist, people all my life told me I believed things I never did, because they did just what you want to do.

imdo not need to know a persons background to know why they believe the way they do, I can just ask them, and if I disagree I can go to the word,

I remember certain pastors telling me, these people believe this, you should stay away from them they are dangerous, or these people are not saved for this or that reason, only to find out later everything they said was prety much wrong,

we are to churched, and to busy butting faith in what our pastors say about others, and that’s why we can’t talk to each other,

 

[Phoneman-777]

We are walking after the Spirit as soon as we accept Jesus Christ's blood for the remission of our sins.
You show you do not believe that He will complete the work He began in others, though it is promised.
In essence, you are denying the work of the Holy Spirit of God. <- That is the definition of blasphemy.

Jesus "walked" with God...so that means He accepted a blood sacrifice for His sins, right? Of course not. "Walk" is a repeatedly used Biblical metaphor for "Behavior", like when Enoch "walked" with God, or when we're told to "walk" in the ways of the Lord".

Those who "walk" after the Spirit are keeping God's commandments - they don't deliberately, habitually, impenitently break them, then claim God's promises of forgiveness through a OSAS License to Sin.

 

[Phoneman-777]

That’s the issue, people,see people,who believe in osas as calvinist, when they are not, they see people as arminian when they are not

fo,some reason people seem to think there are three theologies, Catholic arminian and Calvin, and we have to put everyone in one of these three categories,

so everyone thinks they know what the other believes. Yet has no idea what they believe,

so what we get is “you believe this”. With the response. “No I do not believe that, I believe this”. And then the response back of. “ I know what you believe you believe this, it goes on and on and on.

it’s sad that people can’t just listen to the person, instead of trying to put them in some category, and never coming to the knowledge of what that person really believes

Abraham Lincoln once asked a crowd, "If we call a dog's tail a leg, how many legs does the dog have?"
The crowd answered, "Five".
Lincoln replied, "Wrong, the answer is four. Calling a "tail" a "leg" doesn't make it a leg."

......and insisting OSAS is Biblical doesn't make it any less the License to Sin that it is than believing a tail is a leg makes a dog any less a quadruped.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Once again, you slander with false truth

its amazing you scream obedience, yet break one of the ten commands every time you mention OSAS, because your pride is to deep to see you have no idea what they really teach (mainstream, all belief systems have their fanatics. Which do not hold to the truth of the doctrine)

Surrender to God takes humility, not pride...however, the "king over all the children of pride" - Satan -withdrew his surrender from God’s authority and leads his subjects to do the same through false ideas like OSAS.

 

[tribesman]

That’s the issue, people,see people,who believe in osas as calvinist, when they are not, they see people as arminian when they are not

fo,some reason people seem to think there are three theologies, Catholic arminian and Calvin, and we have to put everyone in one of these three categories,

so everyone thinks they know what the other believes. Yet has no idea what they believe,

so what we get is “you believe this”. With the response. “No I do not believe that, I believe this”. And then the response back of. “ I know what you believe you believe this, it goes on and on and on.

it’s sad that people can’t just listen to the person, instead of trying to put them in some category, and never coming to the knowledge of what that person really believes

Well, on an individual level: While a person may not be an arminian, some of his beliefs may be. Although that person might not even have read up on or know much or even anything about arminianism, some of his beliefs yet are identical to some arminian tenets. Just as there are people who hold to pre- or postmillenalism without really knowing anything about the terms. So then it's more to spot that particular belief than to put up a label.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abraham Lincoln once asked a crowd, "If we call a dog's tail a leg, how many legs does the dog have?"
The crowd answered, "Five".
Lincoln replied, "Wrong, the answer is four. Calling a "tail" a "leg" doesn't make it a leg."

......and insisting OSAS is Biblical doesn't make it any less the License to Sin that it is than believing a tail is a leg makes a dog any less a quadruped.

Or calling Legalism and lack of faith in Christ biblical does not make it any more true

Once again my friend. When are you going to trust God?

You say you tust he will change you. Then your doctrine says we can overpower God and that although he promised to complete the work he started. We could prevent him from doing that

Since when are we more powerful than God?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Surrender to God takes humility, not pride...

Your right, Blessed are the poor in spirit (in the greek literally bankrupt) for thiers is the kingdom of God

Both licentiousness and legalism are steeped in pride Niether have become poor in spirit. They have yet to humble themselves. And where they claim OSAS or NOSAS, Both are headed in the wrong direction. Because neither has become the tax collector

Since you fall under the legalistic crowd And bash the licentious crowd and try to put EVERYONE who believed God wen he said he has perfected FOREVER those who are being sanctified. And he who began a good work will complete it as licentious people. You not only lack humility in the gospel. But discernment of true children of God

however, the "king over all the children of pride" - Satan -withdrew his surrender from God’s authority and leads his subjects to do the same through false ideas like OSAS.

Yep Satan did. And he preaches legalism and you fell for it hook line and sinker.