****Justified DIVORCE****
- Thread starter Pickles2021
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I have a question, a bit of a tangent, but I notice the power and control wheel model considers a man threatening suicide to potentially be a part of a pattern of abuse. But those who are involved in suicide prevention say to treat all threats of suicide seriously. How do those involved in DV treat this?
Also, what is your take on male victims of domestic violence. Does it get any attention in your field? Do you think the typical home with a DV situation fits the Duluth Model, or is it unrealistic to apply that to most situations?
That is an alarming thing for someone to say. Churches need to teach people, including children, how to identify moral and kind Christian spouse. We have a messed up culture when it comes to dating, sex, and marriage. More parental involvement in choosing spouses would probably help.
Also, what is your take on male victims of domestic violence. Does it get any attention in your field? Do you think the typical home with a DV situation fits the Duluth Model, or is it unrealistic to apply that to most situations?
That is an alarming thing for someone to say. Churches need to teach people, including children, how to identify moral and kind Christian spouse. We have a messed up culture when it comes to dating, sex, and marriage. More parental involvement in choosing spouses would probably help.
We will disagree, scripture clearly teaches that to divorce and remarry is Adultery while the spouse is living, your opinions are silenced in the presence of Gods words of truth.
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Romans 7:1-3 below, supports and enforces Mark 10:11-12, if a woman is married while her husband lives, she is to be called an Adulteress, simple.
Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Romans 7:1-3 below, supports and enforces Mark 10:11-12, if a woman is married while her husband lives, she is to be called an Adulteress, simple.
Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
T
Divorce was very common in Jesus' time, since adultery was a sin. What men were doing was issuing frequent divorces so they can marry their new young lover, as committing adultery is a sin. Jesus said that men can only divorce if the wife is unfaithful. Jesus looks at the heart of the person. So, I believe that was the context for verses regarding remarriage in the NT. What the men were doing was in fact adultery, under the disguise of marriage, if you look at the heart of the matter.
Ultimately, remarriage is a decision between man, woman, and God. On this, I believe God looks at the heart of the person, as in everything else.
Ultimately, remarriage is a decision between man, woman, and God. On this, I believe God looks at the heart of the person, as in everything else.
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By your own logic the one who remarries would be an adulterer.
The law would have an adulterer stoned to death.
The widow/widower is free to remarry.
Be interesting how far you would like to take this. Are you more concerned about the innocent party being freed by the act of adultary as per the law God made for that purpose, or are you going to ignore the spirit of the law and focus on the letter here?
If you go by the letter you yourself will be bound to stone the guilty party to free the innocent party, and then of course end up in court for murder.
(I wouldn’t advise it!)
So It’s most likely you will obey the law of man instead, and not murder the guilty party, to save your own skin.
This -by your own standards - unlovingly leaves the innocent party unable to remarry, least they face the wrath of your judgement, stemming from your belief that that they must pointlessly suffer because you won’t break the law of man to observe the law of Moses... and at the same time forbid them to follow the law of the land - that actually frees them as the law of Moses would have done in this case.
(Of course we aren’t under law so this is ridiculous to argue about - but I am Just giving your own logic back to you if you follow it to it’s conclusion.)
Luke 11
42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God.
....46 And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
The law would have an adulterer stoned to death.
The widow/widower is free to remarry.
Be interesting how far you would like to take this. Are you more concerned about the innocent party being freed by the act of adultary as per the law God made for that purpose, or are you going to ignore the spirit of the law and focus on the letter here?
If you go by the letter you yourself will be bound to stone the guilty party to free the innocent party, and then of course end up in court for murder.
(I wouldn’t advise it!)
So It’s most likely you will obey the law of man instead, and not murder the guilty party, to save your own skin.
This -by your own standards - unlovingly leaves the innocent party unable to remarry, least they face the wrath of your judgement, stemming from your belief that that they must pointlessly suffer because you won’t break the law of man to observe the law of Moses... and at the same time forbid them to follow the law of the land - that actually frees them as the law of Moses would have done in this case.
(Of course we aren’t under law so this is ridiculous to argue about - but I am Just giving your own logic back to you if you follow it to it’s conclusion.)
Luke 11
42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God.
....46 And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
Divorce and Remarriage has already been decided by God, feel free to read it 
scripture clearly teaches that to divorce and remarry is Adultery while the spouse is living
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Romans 7:1-3 below, supports and enforces Mark 10:11-12, if a woman is married while her husband lives, she is to be called an Adulteress, simple.
Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
scripture clearly teaches that to divorce and remarry is Adultery while the spouse is living
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Romans 7:1-3 below, supports and enforces Mark 10:11-12, if a woman is married while her husband lives, she is to be called an Adulteress, simple.
Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Scripture clearly teaches that to divorce and remarry is Adultery while the spouse is living
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Romans 7:1-3 below, supports and enforces Mark 10:11-12, if a woman is married while her husband lives, she is to be called an Adulteress, simple.
Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Romans 7:1-3 below, supports and enforces Mark 10:11-12, if a woman is married while her husband lives, she is to be called an Adulteress, simple.
Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
When you feel like responding to the issues I raised about hypocrisy and legalism in my actual post, backed up with scripture in case you missed it, instead of just repeating a small portion of scripture over and over again, then by all means please respond to my post. But until then it’s a waste of time to continue. It isn’t a Discussion now, or even a conversation - it’s just you repeating verses and ignoring any other verses or biblical examples Or teachings shared with you that you don’t like.
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Teachings I Don't Like?
It appears you are looking in the mirror of your own accusation
Gods words are very clear, a person can't remarry while their spouse lives
Scripture clearly teaches that to divorce and remarry is Adultery while the spouse is living
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Romans 7:1-3 below, supports and enforces Mark 10:11-12, if a woman is married while her husband lives, she is to be called an Adulteress, simple.
Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
It appears you are looking in the mirror of your own accusation
Gods words are very clear, a person can't remarry while their spouse lives
Scripture clearly teaches that to divorce and remarry is Adultery while the spouse is living
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Romans 7:1-3 below, supports and enforces Mark 10:11-12, if a woman is married while her husband lives, she is to be called an Adulteress, simple.
Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Teachings I Don't Like?
It appears you are looking in the mirror of your own accusation
Gods words are very clear, a person can't remarry while their spouse lives
Scripture clearly teaches that to divorce and remarry is Adultery while the spouse is living
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Romans 7:1-3 below, supports and enforces Mark 10:11-12, if a woman is married while her husband lives, she is to be called an Adulteress, simple.
Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
It appears you are looking in the mirror of your own accusation
Gods words are very clear, a person can't remarry while their spouse lives
Scripture clearly teaches that to divorce and remarry is Adultery while the spouse is living
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Romans 7:1-3 below, supports and enforces Mark 10:11-12, if a woman is married while her husband lives, she is to be called an Adulteress, simple.
Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
It's that Simple
Exodus 20:14KJV
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Exodus 20:14KJV
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
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Once again, God's institution of marriage for all mankind.
Genesis 2:24-25KJV
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Exodus 20:14KJV
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Genesis 2:24-25KJV
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Exodus 20:14KJV
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
During the time of Moses, and the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ, man was fighting for the exclusion for divorce and remarriage, and Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh quoted Genesis 2:24-25
Man's heart hasn't changed, still looking for the exclusion to divorce and remarry today.
Matthew 19:3-8KJV
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Genesis 2:24-25KJV
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Exodus 20:14KJV
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Man's heart hasn't changed, still looking for the exclusion to divorce and remarry today.
Matthew 19:3-8KJV
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Genesis 2:24-25KJV
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Exodus 20:14KJV
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
If we are to be honest, looking at someone to lust after them sexually, is tantamount to the very act of adultery.
So, if we are honest, how many married couples have either one or both people guilty of adultery in their heart?
It's impossible to say, but my guess is the majority of couples have probably saw another man or woman outside of their marriage and secretly wanted them, but would never actually pursue an extra-marital affair.
Should all of those people get a divorce? If not, why?
So, if we are honest, how many married couples have either one or both people guilty of adultery in their heart?
It's impossible to say, but my guess is the majority of couples have probably saw another man or woman outside of their marriage and secretly wanted them, but would never actually pursue an extra-marital affair.
Should all of those people get a divorce? If not, why?
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There is no 'spirit of the law' in the Bible. That is an old, but confused, interpretation by those who overemphasized allegorical interpretation. The concept is the Spirit versus the letter of the law, not interpreting the law or the scripture loosely or allegorically according to a 'spirit o the law' concept.
So you project your own line of reasoning onto mine. You also make a lot of assumptions based on a brief comment of mine. I have not argued that Gentiles nations must stone adulterers, either.
You should also notice that your own position makes you judgmental toward those who hold to the traditional view of marriage.
I do not claim to have all the answers on this. I would advise people to thoroughly study the issue and to be extra careful to keep a clean conscience before God. From the words of Christ, there is nothing about the wife being allowed to remarry because of fornication (or adultery) in Matthew 19. One interpretation of it is that it means 'not addressing the issue of fornication' or something along those lines. The majority view, it seems, of the first centuries of Christianity, did not allow for divorce and remarriage. The synoptics do not have the exception clause.
You are just typing out your own thoughts and attributing them to me.
Many of the Pharisees allowed for a man to divorce his wife at will. Christ came along and taught a teaching on divorce and remarriage so restrictive, His own disciples then commented that if such was the case that it was better for a man not to marry.
My post was asking for you to explain and clarify what you believe based on scripture, not to make up a line of argument about what you think I must believe.
So you project your own line of reasoning onto mine. You also make a lot of assumptions based on a brief comment of mine. I have not argued that Gentiles nations must stone adulterers, either.
You should also notice that your own position makes you judgmental toward those who hold to the traditional view of marriage.
I do not claim to have all the answers on this. I would advise people to thoroughly study the issue and to be extra careful to keep a clean conscience before God. From the words of Christ, there is nothing about the wife being allowed to remarry because of fornication (or adultery) in Matthew 19. One interpretation of it is that it means 'not addressing the issue of fornication' or something along those lines. The majority view, it seems, of the first centuries of Christianity, did not allow for divorce and remarriage. The synoptics do not have the exception clause.
You are just typing out your own thoughts and attributing them to me.
Many of the Pharisees allowed for a man to divorce his wife at will. Christ came along and taught a teaching on divorce and remarriage so restrictive, His own disciples then commented that if such was the case that it was better for a man not to marry.
My post was asking for you to explain and clarify what you believe based on scripture, not to make up a line of argument about what you think I must believe.
T
Even though based on such verses I believe God views looking at porn and committing adultery through the act of sex the same, most people don't and thus are more forgiving if spouse happened to look at porn. However porn can be damaging to a marriage if it becomes an addiction and/or if it lasts decades, where the innocent spouse does feel the spouse who looks at porn is cheating especially if the spouse is also masterbating while looking at porn. In such cases, I believe if the innocent spouse divorces it is not because of a hardened heart, if he/she feels porn has robbed the marriage.
The Bible say 'two shall be one flesh.' Husband and wife are one in body. Looking with an intention to lust is committing adultery in the heart. God looks on the heart.
If someone can divorce their husband or wife for looking with lust, should someone who has hatred toward his brother who says 'raca' or 'thou fool' get the death penalty, also? Should someone who covets their neighbor's house have to give the neighbor four times the price of the house?
Looking with lust is not just about looking at porn. One could do this if the other person is fully clothed, etc.
It is a sin, and a terrible thing, but in this society, at least, a huge percentage of the population would be justified in divorcing if that were the case. And when I read the words of Christ, I do not get the impression that he was giving widespread justification to do so. It could be the Jews in the first century were more moral and reserved, but the Grecco-Roman culture was quite perverse. Their 'porn' might have been statues, or actual live nudity. In the Bible, we do not see the apostles advocating for widespread divorce.
If someone can divorce their husband or wife for looking with lust, should someone who has hatred toward his brother who says 'raca' or 'thou fool' get the death penalty, also? Should someone who covets their neighbor's house have to give the neighbor four times the price of the house?
Looking with lust is not just about looking at porn. One could do this if the other person is fully clothed, etc.
It is a sin, and a terrible thing, but in this society, at least, a huge percentage of the population would be justified in divorcing if that were the case. And when I read the words of Christ, I do not get the impression that he was giving widespread justification to do so. It could be the Jews in the first century were more moral and reserved, but the Grecco-Roman culture was quite perverse. Their 'porn' might have been statues, or actual live nudity. In the Bible, we do not see the apostles advocating for widespread divorce.
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To covet another mans wife, with lustful thoughts spiritual adultery, and this sin can be removed through a repentant heart, and erased
Physical, literal, adultery, is to actually be married to another mans wife, and actually having sexual relations
This sin can be removed through divorce from the woman that isnt the lawful wife, and repentance.
As is clearly seen, two completely different scenarios
Physical, literal, adultery, is to actually be married to another mans wife, and actually having sexual relations
This sin can be removed through divorce from the woman that isnt the lawful wife, and repentance.
As is clearly seen, two completely different scenarios
I think it depends what you believe a marriage or a divorce is. The Bible doesn't describe exactly what constitutes a marriage or divorce aside from "becoming one flesh" for marriage and "a certificate of divorce" for divorce.
You seem to be under the impression that a marriage remains in effect indefinitely. As far as I can tell, if someone says "we're divorced. Get out of my life." Then that's what a divorce is unless there is scripture showing otherwise.
You seem to be under the impression that a marriage remains in effect indefinitely. As far as I can tell, if someone says "we're divorced. Get out of my life." Then that's what a divorce is unless there is scripture showing otherwise.
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