Is Jesus New Covenant or New "Law"?

[pumpkinbread1567]

This is a thread dedicated to member @brighthouse98 for the titled discussion that happened in Miscellaneous page. I thought I should move it here. He/she did not ask for it, but after my last (and somewhat critical) post, he/she stopped responding, so I decided I would wait here while anticipating others to tell us what they think. So anyone is welcome to post here.

Moreover,
He/she also thinks that Jesus fulfilled the ENTIRE Law and the prophets,
along with a member named shittim. Thus I make a poll for it.

I will transfer the very last few of our exchanges below (for convenience), but here is the link to the page: Old "Law" or Old Covenant?

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.​

​

Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.​

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​

​

This new commandment you think is a "new law" is about love, and loving another is not a new concept. All the law and the prophets hang on LOVE.

"A new commandment" is not "a new law" is it? I request that you look through Hebrews 8 which you brought up to see if it says God would make a new law.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah;​

​

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.​

Was not the first covenant the written commandments on stone tablets? What was faulty was the covenant and NOT the law, for if you believe that the law was faulty, you'll have to call God a lier which he is not.

Of this, here is the most important point I made:

Was not the first covenant the written commandments on stone tablets? What was faulty was the covenant and NOT the law, for if you believe that the law was faulty, you'll have to call God a lier which he is not.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

This is his/her reply.

The law was perfect, which was the problem!! No one could possible follow it! Hence why Jesus had to come to fulfil it. So a new and better one could be founded that through the blood of Jesus all could endue it. Then Ten Commandments were a part of the Old Covenant. ( Exodus 34:28)

Many look to seperate the two,but that notion is wrong. Before the old Law was written no one was killed.( Gen 4:9-15) But the Jews themselves wanted law.They were a proud people,so God gave them what they wanted, and he was not happy about it either!!Where did the jews go wrong at excatly one may ask? I will show you.( Exodus 19:8!!!!) WE WILL DO!!!! Not follow!!! But do ourself!!!

By reading many of the Hebrew texts it would take a while to explain these words,but in the short term,what this meant was they wished to be judged by there own righteousness rather then take grace from God. Please read on from here.( Exodus 19:9-13) Now the Lord comes to Moses in a thick cloud,now the people will die if they touch or look to go up the Mountain! The fault on the first was that no one could fulfil it.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

So I replied

You stated it yourself. The Law is/was perfect. Without fault.

So how can HE, who made the perfect law, change the law? There is nothing to change. What changed was the COVENANT. From the heart of stone to the heart of flesh, Jesus Christ. Bcs the written commandments, no man was able to keep.

What Jesus does is to fulfill the law and not change a letter of it.

And THIS was my question which has NOT been answered to this day.

Is there any mention of a "NEW LAW" in the Scripture?

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

But because she said this,

Ten Commandments were a part of the Old Covenant.

Hence my reply:

This is true. They WERE the covenant, according to Exodus 34:10.

So I request for your feedback on this question: Are you saying that the word Covenant = Law? Bcs in that case, it'd mean the following.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new LAW with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah;​

Are you saying they are interchangeable?

And to this question, she answered,

Yes brother as you saw in scripture,the Old Covenant is the Old Law.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

So I suggested a thing.

Alright then. I now request for your feedback on this question:

​

Matthew 5:18​

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.​

​

What do you think is "the Law" mentioned here in your opinion?

And here is her reply:

Yes brother ! UNTIL!!!! everything is accomplished. When Jesus said on the cross it is finished,he was not talking about his own death,he was speaking upon the end of the Old Covenant. This scripture is found early in every gospel,but you sure will never find this at the end of any gospel either. Of course brother you are free to believe whatever you wish.I have been in the Lord now for some 43 years,I still learn things everyday as well!

Because of that, I replied with this:

I then request for your feedback on THIS question:

Rev 21:1-2​

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.​

2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

Rev 21:5-6​

5And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.”​

6And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life.​

Will you explain to me why Jesus says "it is finished" here?

Notice that this is really after the Tribulation and at the point of the creation of New Heaven and Earth.

...Or will you say that Crucifixion fulfilled this recreation too?

Needless to say, but this post was reacted as "BORING" which I find a bit rude. AND THEN, brighthouse98 replied with this peculiar thing.

I see this as simple his for knowledge bro ( 1 Peter 1:2)And you cannot compare the two,they are 2 different events. One is for a better covenant, the other for for a new creation. It seems to me that God has completed this task as well,just because we cannot see this with our eyes now,does not mean he has to do anything more to complete.

At this point, I was like what? But, because of the italicized claim, my previous question:

I request that you look back on Matthew 5:18.

8For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.​

​

What law is Jesus talking about here that would remain until recreation?

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

After this, their response has halted.

 

[Dino246]

I scanned the quoted conversation; frankly, it is a bit convoluted, and I am not going to try to untangle it. I think it more appropriate for those involved to clarify their own comments as they see fit.

As to the title of the thread, the new covenant is not "new law"; rather, it is a completely different covenant based on the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice. Our participation in it is by faith, not by following rules.

 

[oyster67]

As for your poll question, the answer is no. Not all the wonderful prophecies and promised were fulfilled 2000 years ago. We will have to wait for at least 1000 years more for that.

What has been fulfilled is everything necessary for or salvation and redemption by the Blood of the Son of God.

Now for the title question...

Is Jesus New Covenant or New "Law"?

Best to say that Jesus is the fulfillment of the old way. This is why He is referred to as the "New and better way"

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


He set us free from the old way because He fulfilled it and set us free unto Christian Liberty.

He simplified and summed up the Law in this wise:

Matthew
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[Live4Him]

As for your poll question, the answer is no. Not all the wonderful prophecies and promises were fulfilled 2000 years ago. We will have to wait for at least 1000 years more for that.

What has been fulfilled is everything necessary for or salvation and redemption by the Blood of the Son of God.

Amen.

 

[oyster67]

Pumpkinhead said; " if you believe that the law was faulty, you'll have to call God a lier which he is not. "

Answer: There is a difference between faulty and unfulfilled. The Law was designed to be fulfilled by Jesus. The Law shows us our wretchedness and hopelessness outside and apart from Jesus' cleansing blood.

 

[Blik]

There has been so much misunderstanding of scripture based on these truths. If there wasn't, there would be agreement about what it means. There is disagreement, so someone is not understanding.

I am convinced in my own mind that I understand, brag, brag. Here is what I believe. Jesus fulfilled the law in two ways. Every prophecy told of Him in the old testament was fulfilled. Christ also gave an answer to all about the law when He gave a way for us to have forgiveness for any law we break.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Pumpkinhead said; " if you believe that the law was faulty, you'll have to call God a lier which he is not. "

Since God Himself says that He found fault with the Old Covenant, this is a non-starter. Firstly, we need to note that in the epistle to the Hebrews (8:7,8), the words are those of God the Holy Spirit, and Paul is merely the one writing them down:

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) was meant to be a temporary covenant until Christ fulfilled the Law. On the day that He died on the cross -- the 14th of Nisan, in AD 30 -- the Old Covenant came to an end. Therefore the veil in the temple was supernaturally torn from top to bottom. However, the Jewish priests failed to see this as a sign from God. Therefore the temple itself was destroyed through the Romans in AD 70.

As Paul says in the book of Hebrews, the blood of bulls, and goats, and calves, could never take away sin. It was only the Lamb of God -- the Lord Jesus Christ -- who took away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

 

[throughfaith]

col 2
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

[Blik]

Since God Himself says that He found fault with the Old Covenant, this is a non-starter. Firstly, we need to note that in the epistle to the Hebrews (8:7,8), the words are those of God the Holy Spirit, and Paul is merely the one writing them down:

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) was meant to be a temporary covenant until Christ fulfilled the Law. On the day that He died on the cross -- the 14th of Nisan, in AD 30 -- the Old Covenant came to an end. Therefore the veil in the temple was supernaturally torn from top to bottom. However, the Jewish priests failed to see this as a sign from God. Therefore the temple itself was destroyed through the Romans in AD 70.

As Paul says in the book of Hebrews, the blood of bulls, and goats, and calves, could never take away sin. It was only the Lamb of God -- the Lord Jesus Christ -- who took away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

If God gave "temporary" guidance, not based on His eternal principles, then it would make His scripture telling us God doesn't change, and that God is eternal not the truth.

The Jews copied the heathens in feeding what they told was God with blood.

The Lord said there was no forgiveness without blood, and that God gave blood on the altar for souls. (Lev. 17:11) The blood of animals was either a shadow of that blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins or God hated it. The belief that there was nothing of God in the sacrificial system is to misrepresent the Lord. The sacrificial system was given by our holy God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If God gave "temporary" guidance, not based on His eternal principles, then it would make His scripture telling us God doesn't change, and that God is eternal not the truth.

God does not change, but His dealings with mankind change.

Are you claiming that the Old Covenant is still valid and in force? If so, you are promoting A LIE.

 

[oyster67]

The beginnings of a good thing seems like a good thing to me.

Isaiah
55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
55:2 Wherefore do ye spend money for [that which is] not bread? and your labour for [that which] satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye [that which is] good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
55:4 Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation [that] thou knowest not, and nations [that] knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

 

[oyster67]

The sacrificial system was given by our holy God.

Amen.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[oyster67]

Are you claiming that the Old Covenant is still valid and in force? If so, you are promoting A LIE.

She is not promoting a lie. Those who reject Jesus' Atonement are still under the condemnation of that Old Law. It reveals their sin. They are still under it's condemnation to this very day.

 

[Guojing]

This is a thread dedicated to member @brighthouse98 for the titled discussion that happened in Miscellaneous page. I thought I should move it here. He/she did not ask for it, but after my last (and somewhat critical) post, he/she stopped responding, so I decided I would wait here while anticipating others to tell us what they think. So anyone is welcome to post here.

Moreover,
He/she also thinks that Jesus fulfilled the ENTIRE Law and the prophets,
along with a member named shittim. Thus I make a poll for it.

I will transfer the very last few of our exchanges below (for convenience), but here is the link to the page: Old "Law" or Old Covenant?

Do you know when the Old Covenant was instituted and which people group was it instituted with?

It was with Israel and it started from Exodus 24. That chapter showed the nation of Israel accepting the requirements of the Old Covenant.

The rest of the OT tells us one thing, Israel never followed the requirements and as a result, curses and disasters kept coming to them.

Jesus's death on the cross made possible the New Covenant to be made with Israel.

But currently, the nation Israel never did accept the requirements of the New Covenant, which required them to believe that Jesus is the promised Son of God (John 20:31)

So, currently, the New Covenant has not been established with them yet. But after Jesus returns for Israel in his 2nd coming, we are told that the entire nation would accept Jesus as that Son of God, that is when it will be established (Hebrews 8:8-12, Romans 11:26-27)