Faith without works issue .
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Verse saying this please...
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Abraham's faith spoken of in Genesis 15 was not made perfect, complete until he offered up Isaac in ch. 22.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Well of course.
Why else would I come to that conclusion
Lets look
Chapter 1: 2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces [a]patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be [b]perfect and complete, lacking nothing.
Testing of YOUR FAITH
He then spends the next vew verses in this context of having yoru faith tested and enduring.
Next:
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
Again written to individuals. A command to each of them. DO THIS.. He then again spends the next few verses in this topic..
chapter 2: 2 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.
Again. A command to induviduals. Be doers not hearers only
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors
Again, Spoken to induviduals. IF YOU DO THIS. The whole book up to this point is to test yourself. DO you do these things or do you do those.
after all these things, He comes to our passage
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
1. He does not say they had faith, He saaid they claimed to have faith.
2. In context. He is saying, all these things I have told you up to now. Are these you or are you just a hearer not a doer?
3. He follows this by asking them to show their own faith without their works, and he will show his with his works.
He is not telling us to judge them, He is telling them to judge themselves.
I will paraphrase due to my vision lack. It is written, Abraham believed God and this was reckoned to him as righteous nous.
It is certain all who have the gift of faith and believe willunderstand what they understand by the Holy Spirit.
To simply ask for verses is also simply questioning the faith of others be it by the Holy Spirit or in error, so you silly verse need only displays ignorance of the word, distrust of all in the family or some kind of judgment stance. The written code kills, but, the Spirit gives life. Text without Spirit from god is useless except for death.
It is certain all who have the gift of faith and believe willunderstand what they understand by the Holy Spirit.
To simply ask for verses is also simply questioning the faith of others be it by the Holy Spirit or in error, so you silly verse need only displays ignorance of the word, distrust of all in the family or some kind of judgment stance. The written code kills, but, the Spirit gives life. Text without Spirit from god is useless except for death.
He's not telling us anything. He's addressing the twelve tribes scattered abroad. This is none other than the nation of Israel. All throughout scripture the term "twelve tribes" is always a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole and never a term attached to the body of Christ...ever. To use it in this manner would contradict the rest of scripture.
The New Jerusalem to come down from our Father is the capital of the eternal Israel. Pau teaches we are adopted children of Israel and fellow heirs with Israel.
Israel has a translation worthy of knowing but you will not believe others when they share fro faith, s you will not believe what I could afford you. Research it for yourself, you will find text on it from many sources.
Israel has a translation worthy of knowing but you will not believe others when they share fro faith, s you will not believe what I could afford you. Research it for yourself, you will find text on it from many sources.
L
Live4Him
Guest
Exactly.
As I've already explained here twice, the whole thing with Abram/Abraham pertained to his "seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).
Abram's/Abraham's initial "belief" or faith in Christ was accounted unto him for righteousness.
However, Abraham's "belief" wasn't tested until the time came that God told him to sacrifice Isaac, his son through whose lineage or descendancy Christ was to come.
Sad to say, in the minds of some people here, Abram/Abraham would have been lost if he had died before the whole testing thing with Isaac took place because, in their completely distorted beliefs, Abraham wasn't truly righteous up until then.
It's utter nonsense, but people will believe what they want to believe.
Anyhow, what James was basically saying was that our actions need to line up with that which we profess to believe in.
I heard the following story from a woman many years ago, and it might help to illustrate what I'm saying.
This woman was a 6th grade Sunday school teacher at a church in NYC that had metal bars on the outside of the windows in the classrooms (if you've ever been to NYC, then you would understand why).
Her teaching assignment that day was this verse:
"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. " (Acts 1:8)
She told her students that the underlying Greek word which is here translated as "power" is "dynamis", from which we get our English word "dynamite", and then she proceeded to pull what looked like a stick of dynamite out of her pocketbook (it was actually a roadside flare with a fuse attached to it).
She also produced a lighter, and she proceeded to move the flame from the lighter ever closer to what her students thought was truly a stick of dynamite, and their eyes widened with fear as she did so.
She then lit the fuse, while pretending it was accidental, and, in feigned horror, she gave what appeared to be the stick of dynamite to her co-worker, and told him to throw it out the window.
Well, seeing how the windows all had metal bars on the outside of them, the "dynamite" bounced off of the same, and landed on the floor of the classroom.
Her students' reactions?
They literally ran for their lives, and nearly trampled each other as they fled down the hallway.
When they were finally retrieved and brought back to classroom, the teacher told and asked them the following.
She said:
You ran for your lives because you BELIEVED that this was truly a stick of dynamite.
Now, let me ask you a question:
Do you truly BELIEVE in Jesus?
Her point, in my estimation, is the same point that James was seeking to make, namely this:
If we truly believe in something or someone, then our corresponding actions ought to align themselves with that or whom we profess to believe in.
It's really that simple, but some will never see or get it.
Research every reference to the twelve tribes. It is always a reference to the nation of Israel, God's physical people. It is never a reference to the body of Christ or the spiritual seed of Abraham or adopted children.
Jesus was raised for our Justification.
Romans 4:25
“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”
A little more context.
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Law of liberty??
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Law of liberty??
B
Blackpowderduelist
Guest
How much works is required so that you do not have dead faith?
And the observation as to who the Author is writing to.
Verse 1 chapter 1 .
1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Verse 1 chapter 1 .
1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
L
Live4Him
Guest
Big deal.
Are you suggesting that what James wrote only applied to the twelve tribes of Israel?
If so, then I guess that what Paul wrote to the Romans only applied to the Romans?
Damn!
I hope that I haven't shared Romans 10:9-10 with any non-Romans...
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Good question!
No works equals zero works
so how much do we need to go above zero?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Here's a verse to help with who Paul is writing to . The bible is very useful . It tells us who the Author is writing to and everything. Rom 1
7¶To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Just like here in James
1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
so observation questions .
Who is Paul writing to?
who is James writing to ?
L
Live4Him
Guest
Whose point are you trying to prove?
Yours or mine?
Do you honestly believe that what Paul wrote "to all that be in Rome" only applied to them?
Didn't you just tell me on another thread yesterday that you preach Romans 10:9-10 to people on the streets where you live?
Do you live in Rome?
Seriously, just give up this whole "two different gospels" nonsense that you believe in.