Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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I said:
Here are the FACTS:
1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.
No. How many facts did I present? Acts 3:21 is only the first fact that refutes a pre-trib rapture with a U-turn to heaven.
There are 5 facts that prove that there is no pre-trib rapture.
Of course. On the road to Damascus.
Ok, so let's just count all the times the Lord comes to earth:
1. First Advent as a baby.
2. All the preIncarnate times He visited OT figures. Theophanies.
3. Paul on the road to Damascus.
4. the fabricated pre-trib theory.
5. Second Advent, when He comes as King of kings, and sets up His Millennial rule.
Hm. Lots of visits, but ONLY two are numbered. Why is that? The other visits DON'T count as "returns to earth". If all of them were counted in the Bible, by the time He returns after the Tribulation, the number would be rather high, and we'd have to describe it as the TENTH Advent, or whatever the number adds up to be.
So your deflection about the road to Damascus is futile. The Bible speaks of the Lord's coming to earth as TWO Advents; first and second. And that's it.
Deal with the 5 facts. If you can refute any of them (and you didn't with #1) you will have a point.
Here are the FACTS:
1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.
No. How many facts did I present? Acts 3:21 is only the first fact that refutes a pre-trib rapture with a U-turn to heaven.
There are 5 facts that prove that there is no pre-trib rapture.
Of course. On the road to Damascus.
Ok, so let's just count all the times the Lord comes to earth:
1. First Advent as a baby.
2. All the preIncarnate times He visited OT figures. Theophanies.
3. Paul on the road to Damascus.
4. the fabricated pre-trib theory.
5. Second Advent, when He comes as King of kings, and sets up His Millennial rule.
Hm. Lots of visits, but ONLY two are numbered. Why is that? The other visits DON'T count as "returns to earth". If all of them were counted in the Bible, by the time He returns after the Tribulation, the number would be rather high, and we'd have to describe it as the TENTH Advent, or whatever the number adds up to be.
So your deflection about the road to Damascus is futile. The Bible speaks of the Lord's coming to earth as TWO Advents; first and second. And that's it.
Deal with the 5 facts. If you can refute any of them (and you didn't with #1) you will have a point.
FreeGrace2 said:
Here are the FACTS:
1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.
These numbered facts must be proven wrong FROM SCRIPTURE (not conjecture or construct) in order to defend the pre-trib position.
I think it has to do with having "eyes to see and ears to hear".
One poster tried to sidestep Acts 3:21 by bringing up Jesus' encounter with Paul on the road to Damascus. But he forgot about all the visits by our Lord to the many OT figures, which we call theophanies. Why doesn't the Bible count all those as "comings"? Because they aren't comings in the sense of the FIRST and SECOND advents.
The biggest problem for pre-tribbers is the lack of any verse saying that Jesus returns to heaven with the glorified believers. That really sinks their boat.
Here are the FACTS:
1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.
These numbered facts must be proven wrong FROM SCRIPTURE (not conjecture or construct) in order to defend the pre-trib position.
I think it has to do with having "eyes to see and ears to hear".
One poster tried to sidestep Acts 3:21 by bringing up Jesus' encounter with Paul on the road to Damascus. But he forgot about all the visits by our Lord to the many OT figures, which we call theophanies. Why doesn't the Bible count all those as "comings"? Because they aren't comings in the sense of the FIRST and SECOND advents.
The biggest problem for pre-tribbers is the lack of any verse saying that Jesus returns to heaven with the glorified believers. That really sinks their boat.
Its not a deflection. When Peter said Acts 3:19-21 to Israel, it was under prophecy.
Jesus appearing to Paul was a hidden mystery that was unknown to the OT prophets and Peter.
Likewise, the OT prophets never talked about Jews and Gentiles ever being equal in a "Body of Christ".
So similarly likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture is also a hidden mystery. You cannot thus use Acts 3:19-21 against it.
Jesus appearing to Paul was a hidden mystery that was unknown to the OT prophets and Peter.
Likewise, the OT prophets never talked about Jews and Gentiles ever being equal in a "Body of Christ".
So similarly likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture is also a hidden mystery. You cannot thus use Acts 3:19-21 against it.
Note, I did not say "a restoration" (if you mean by this that all things are "completed" by that point), but rather as part of "the TIMES of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age"...
...so I disagree that the tribulation period is NOT a part of "the TIMES of" that... I believe it most certainly IS (that is, in that time period He will have commenced such), and here's a couple of reasons, which I mention in a great many of my past posts on this Subject (tho it's doubtful ppl actually look up the references when I merely list them, at times):
--DURING the trib years (FOLLOWING "our Rapture") is when He will again be calling Israel (who is PRESENTLY "lo ammi'), "MY PEOPLE" / "MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"... examples: Ezek39:7 (I supplied Gen45:1 as a type of the wording shown here in this verse (when there were "yet 5 yrs" remaining of Joseph's "7 yr famine"):
"And there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE *HIMSELF* KNOWN UNTO his brethren"
= "SO [/in this way] will *I* MAKE MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"
(I believe this "war" will take place as PART of the "SECOND SEAL WARS" early in the trib yrs, which leads me to the next passage...), Hosea 5:14-6:3 "I will go and return to my place TILL" [from the time of His ascension]... and "IN THEIR AFFLICTION they WILL seek Me early" and "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day, He will raise us up..." which is parallel to other passages I've listed:
--...which LIKENS THIS (re: Israel's future) to A RESURRECTION (not a literal, "physical/bodily resurrection from the DEAD"):
Daniel 12:1-4,10...
Ezekiel 37:12-13,20-23... ('dry bones' prophecy--same time-slot as the 39:7 I just mentioned)
Hosea 5:14-6:3... (as I mentioned above) "TILL"
Isaiah 26:14-21 ("Come, MY PEOPLE"--but note vv.13-19 and then v.2-3 of the following chpt--'A VINEYARD'--that this context is re: Israel [Isa5:7a, parallel Jesus' parables])...
Roman 11:15[25-29; and 9:26/Hos1:10-11/2:23a (not pt b) re: Israel]... "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL"
John 6:39 [distinct from v.40]...
even Micah 5:3 [whereas 5:2 is re: Jesus' birth], "Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth [<--identifying her] HATH BROUGHT FORTH: THEN the remnant of his brethren SHALL RETURN UNTO the children of Israel" (I already mentioned in a past post what I believe this speaks to)...
...etc...
--Jer33:25 כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה אִם־לֹא בְרִיתִי יוֹמָם וָלָיְלָה חֻקּוֹת שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ לֹא־שָֽׂמְתִּי׃
Jeremiah 33:25 - [also Jer31:35-37,31-34] -
23 And there is a word of YHWH to Jeremiah, saying,
24 “Have you not considered what this people have spoken, saying,
The two families on which YHWH fixed,
He rejects them? And they despise My people, so that they are no longer a people before them!”
25 Thus said YHWH: “If My covenant [is] not with day and night,
[And if] I have not appointed/established [H7760] the statutes/ordinances [H2708] of the heavens [plural] and earth—
26 I also reject the seed of Jacob, and My servant David,
From taking rulers from his seed
For the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
For I return [H7725] their captivity, and have pitied them.”
[quoting an old post]
I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):
[quoting Wigram]
"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.
"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."
[also]
"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."
--George V Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041
____________
[quoting that other article by Wigram]
"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."
-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4 George V. Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
____________
--[I've also mentioned...] the "four living creatures" (at the START of that future, specific, LIMITED time period, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) and how THEY are described in the same way that the 4-directional plotment of Israel had been in the OT... so that these in some way pertain to THEM (and "action" God will at that time be taking, by means of Jesus Himself when He will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, Rev5:6, (Lam2:3-4 parallel the wording in 2Th2:7b-8a), etc] by opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the trib yrs...
--in the Olivet Discourse (in the section surrounding "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" [i.e. START of 7-trib yrs]; FOLLOWING "our Rapture") continues on by talking about the believing remnant of Israel AT THAT TIME, by saying (of them), "...and ye shall be hated of all the nations for My Name's sake" (the consistent "ye/you" throughout the passage also speaking of them--the "proleptic 'you'" (those who've been promised the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom)--and same who, in the parallel passage to 24:29-31, in Isa27:12-13 are said will be "gathered ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel... to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" [when He SHALL SEND His angels to gather them TO THERE, at the END of the trib yrs]... and I believe the phrase "the least of these My brethren" [Matt25:40,45] speaks ALSO of them... THEY will be the "INVITERS" of that future time period [DURING the 7-yr trib yrs], etc etc...)
--the concept of the glory of God in two spheres/realms... (notice the phrase "Lord of the earth" in Rev11:4 plus some OT references to same / similar wording)...
--much much more... (so little time
)
...so I disagree that the tribulation period is NOT a part of "the TIMES of" that... I believe it most certainly IS (that is, in that time period He will have commenced such), and here's a couple of reasons, which I mention in a great many of my past posts on this Subject (tho it's doubtful ppl actually look up the references when I merely list them, at times):
--DURING the trib years (FOLLOWING "our Rapture") is when He will again be calling Israel (who is PRESENTLY "lo ammi'), "MY PEOPLE" / "MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"... examples: Ezek39:7 (I supplied Gen45:1 as a type of the wording shown here in this verse (when there were "yet 5 yrs" remaining of Joseph's "7 yr famine"):
"And there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE *HIMSELF* KNOWN UNTO his brethren"
= "SO [/in this way] will *I* MAKE MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"
(I believe this "war" will take place as PART of the "SECOND SEAL WARS" early in the trib yrs, which leads me to the next passage...), Hosea 5:14-6:3 "I will go and return to my place TILL" [from the time of His ascension]... and "IN THEIR AFFLICTION they WILL seek Me early" and "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day, He will raise us up..." which is parallel to other passages I've listed:
--...which LIKENS THIS (re: Israel's future) to A RESURRECTION (not a literal, "physical/bodily resurrection from the DEAD"):
Daniel 12:1-4,10...
Ezekiel 37:12-13,20-23... ('dry bones' prophecy--same time-slot as the 39:7 I just mentioned)
Hosea 5:14-6:3... (as I mentioned above) "TILL"
Isaiah 26:14-21 ("Come, MY PEOPLE"--but note vv.13-19 and then v.2-3 of the following chpt--'A VINEYARD'--that this context is re: Israel [Isa5:7a, parallel Jesus' parables])...
Roman 11:15[25-29; and 9:26/Hos1:10-11/2:23a (not pt b) re: Israel]... "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL"
John 6:39 [distinct from v.40]...
even Micah 5:3 [whereas 5:2 is re: Jesus' birth], "Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth [<--identifying her] HATH BROUGHT FORTH: THEN the remnant of his brethren SHALL RETURN UNTO the children of Israel" (I already mentioned in a past post what I believe this speaks to)...
...etc...
--Jer33:25 כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה אִם־לֹא בְרִיתִי יוֹמָם וָלָיְלָה חֻקּוֹת שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ לֹא־שָֽׂמְתִּי׃
Jeremiah 33:25 - [also Jer31:35-37,31-34] -
23 And there is a word of YHWH to Jeremiah, saying,
24 “Have you not considered what this people have spoken, saying,
The two families on which YHWH fixed,
He rejects them? And they despise My people, so that they are no longer a people before them!”
25 Thus said YHWH: “If My covenant [is] not with day and night,
[And if] I have not appointed/established [H7760] the statutes/ordinances [H2708] of the heavens [plural] and earth—
26 I also reject the seed of Jacob, and My servant David,
From taking rulers from his seed
For the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
For I return [H7725] their captivity, and have pitied them.”
[quoting an old post]
I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):
[quoting Wigram]
"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.
"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."
[also]
"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."
--George V Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041
____________
[quoting that other article by Wigram]
"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."
-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4 George V. Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
____________
--[I've also mentioned...] the "four living creatures" (at the START of that future, specific, LIMITED time period, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) and how THEY are described in the same way that the 4-directional plotment of Israel had been in the OT... so that these in some way pertain to THEM (and "action" God will at that time be taking, by means of Jesus Himself when He will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, Rev5:6, (Lam2:3-4 parallel the wording in 2Th2:7b-8a), etc] by opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the trib yrs...
--in the Olivet Discourse (in the section surrounding "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" [i.e. START of 7-trib yrs]; FOLLOWING "our Rapture") continues on by talking about the believing remnant of Israel AT THAT TIME, by saying (of them), "...and ye shall be hated of all the nations for My Name's sake" (the consistent "ye/you" throughout the passage also speaking of them--the "proleptic 'you'" (those who've been promised the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom)--and same who, in the parallel passage to 24:29-31, in Isa27:12-13 are said will be "gathered ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel... to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" [when He SHALL SEND His angels to gather them TO THERE, at the END of the trib yrs]... and I believe the phrase "the least of these My brethren" [Matt25:40,45] speaks ALSO of them... THEY will be the "INVITERS" of that future time period [DURING the 7-yr trib yrs], etc etc...)
--the concept of the glory of God in two spheres/realms... (notice the phrase "Lord of the earth" in Rev11:4 plus some OT references to same / similar wording)...
--much much more... (so little time
)
It is conclusive for either side.
They are still going to say it is departure from the faith.
I agree with" from the faith".
Reason: it is reality and we see it vividly.
It is probably implied but you are basically correct that a strict application simply means " departure" or " from standing".
The literal is most likely the safest, but it has zero bearing on the big picture because it only says "revealed". So we could be arrested and in huge camps with postribs mocking the second coming. And then the rapture happening the same night. Postribs left with their mouths open as they watch and cry just like the 5 foolish virgins.
They are still going to say it is departure from the faith.
I agree with" from the faith".
Reason: it is reality and we see it vividly.
It is probably implied but you are basically correct that a strict application simply means " departure" or " from standing".
The literal is most likely the safest, but it has zero bearing on the big picture because it only says "revealed". So we could be arrested and in huge camps with postribs mocking the second coming. And then the rapture happening the same night. Postribs left with their mouths open as they watch and cry just like the 5 foolish virgins.
Lol
Pretrib rapture has Jesus in heaven until the same thing.
You guys poorly discern most everything.
You do not even realize we are on the same page with the second coming TO SET UP AND RESTORE THE EARTH.
PSSST... we never say he touches earth.
You guys are bizarrely blinded to what we believe.
All these years of debate and postrib rapturists have never taken the time to learn what we believe.
Pretrib rapture has Jesus in heaven until the same thing.
You guys poorly discern most everything.
You do not even realize we are on the same page with the second coming TO SET UP AND RESTORE THE EARTH.
PSSST... we never say he touches earth.
You guys are bizarrely blinded to what we believe.
All these years of debate and postrib rapturists have never taken the time to learn what we believe.
"3 that day [from v.2! (NOT v.1!)] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [the one PREVIOUSLY mentioned in this CONTEXT] and the man of sin be revealed..."
[he is revealed at the START of "the DOTL" time period, PER 1Th5:2-3 = Jesus' words in the Olivet Discourse regarding SAME... etc etc (other parallel passages)...; NOT at the MIDDLE (2:4), NOR at the END of the trib years (2:8b), but at its START]
--v.2 had just said, "[purporting that] the DAY OF THE LORD [see 1Th5:2-3 its ARRIVAL point in time] *IS PRESENT* [PERFECT indicative]"...
It wasn't.
And Paul tells WHY.
[he is revealed at the START of "the DOTL" time period, PER 1Th5:2-3 = Jesus' words in the Olivet Discourse regarding SAME... etc etc (other parallel passages)...; NOT at the MIDDLE (2:4), NOR at the END of the trib years (2:8b), but at its START]
--v.2 had just said, "[purporting that] the DAY OF THE LORD [see 1Th5:2-3 its ARRIVAL point in time] *IS PRESENT* [PERFECT indicative]"...
It wasn't.
And Paul tells WHY.
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Thank you for making the obvious point here.
Both the FIRST and SECOND Advents were prophesied. The gathering, which you call a rapture, was prophesied. None of the other visits by our Lord to earth were prophesied.
So, since the gathering is a prophecy, and there are no verses that prophesy that Jesus takes glorified saints back up to heaven, where does that leave the pre-trib claim? Without any support from Scriptur
The gathering occurs WHEN Jesus comes back at the SECOND Advent. Want proof? Who wouldn't?
Maatt 24-
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
Clearly the verses that follow are in the context of the Tribulation.
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
When Jesus returns, it will be a VERY OBVIOUS event, one that everyone will see.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Jesus return is always described with a "trumpet call". 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thess 4. However, in Matt 24, the context is CLEARLY the Tribulation. Not some "secret rapture" that only believers will see and hear. In fact, there are no such verses in the Bible about a secret rapture. Just conjecture and construct.
Both the FIRST and SECOND Advents were prophesied. The gathering, which you call a rapture, was prophesied. None of the other visits by our Lord to earth were prophesied.
So, since the gathering is a prophecy, and there are no verses that prophesy that Jesus takes glorified saints back up to heaven, where does that leave the pre-trib claim? Without any support from Scriptur
The gathering occurs WHEN Jesus comes back at the SECOND Advent. Want proof? Who wouldn't?
Maatt 24-
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
Clearly the verses that follow are in the context of the Tribulation.
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
When Jesus returns, it will be a VERY OBVIOUS event, one that everyone will see.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Jesus return is always described with a "trumpet call". 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thess 4. However, in Matt 24, the context is CLEARLY the Tribulation. Not some "secret rapture" that only believers will see and hear. In fact, there are no such verses in the Bible about a secret rapture. Just conjecture and construct.
No, but the Bible DOES.
[QUOTE\]...so I disagree that the tribulation period is NOT a part of "the TIMES of" that... I believe it most certainly IS (that is, in that time period He will have commenced such)[/QUOTE]
Of course, you can believe anything you want. What should be clear is that "times of restoration" would describe the time when Jesus returns, ends the battle of Armageddon, sets up His kingdom and rules for 1,000 years.
So to argue that the Trib is included in any kind of 'restoration' doesn't work. It's just another construct to defend a view that isn't found in the Bible.
Allow me to make a suggestion here. If you have compelling verses that clearly support your claims, just copy and paste them into your post. I generally don't look up citations. But I do quote whole verses that do make my point.
I just don't see anything here that resembles anything supporting a U-turn back to heaven, if that's what you are trying to defend.
Well, thank you. That was real helpful.
I have to wonder why you think any of this suports the idea of Jesus returning to heaven with glorified believers.
All the quoting of Geo Wigram wasn't helpful. Just opinion. Even commentary. What is needed is a very clear verse that teaches that Jesus takes glorified believers back up to heaven. And there aren't any. That's the whole problem with your view.
Still not seeing any relevance of any of this to a U-turn back to heaven.
Nothing here about a U-turn, which you call a rapture taking believers back to heaven after being glorified.
I don't see any point leading to a clear teaching that Jesus takes glorified believers back to heaven.
In your rather long post, you presented nothing that leads to the pre-trib rapture idea.
And the 5 facts that I have presented refute the notion that Jesus makes a U-turn after glorification of believers.
[QUOTE\]...so I disagree that the tribulation period is NOT a part of "the TIMES of" that... I believe it most certainly IS (that is, in that time period He will have commenced such)[/QUOTE]
Of course, you can believe anything you want. What should be clear is that "times of restoration" would describe the time when Jesus returns, ends the battle of Armageddon, sets up His kingdom and rules for 1,000 years.
So to argue that the Trib is included in any kind of 'restoration' doesn't work. It's just another construct to defend a view that isn't found in the Bible.
Allow me to make a suggestion here. If you have compelling verses that clearly support your claims, just copy and paste them into your post. I generally don't look up citations. But I do quote whole verses that do make my point.
I just don't see anything here that resembles anything supporting a U-turn back to heaven, if that's what you are trying to defend.
Well, thank you. That was real helpful.
I have to wonder why you think any of this suports the idea of Jesus returning to heaven with glorified believers.
All the quoting of Geo Wigram wasn't helpful. Just opinion. Even commentary. What is needed is a very clear verse that teaches that Jesus takes glorified believers back up to heaven. And there aren't any. That's the whole problem with your view.
Still not seeing any relevance of any of this to a U-turn back to heaven.
Nothing here about a U-turn, which you call a rapture taking believers back to heaven after being glorified.
I don't see any point leading to a clear teaching that Jesus takes glorified believers back to heaven.
--much much more... (so little time )
)
And the 5 facts that I have presented refute the notion that Jesus makes a U-turn after glorification of believers.
Hevosmies said:
If only there was a verse!
Then how's come you (nor anyone else) has provided even 1 such verse? You claim "several" but you haven't provided even 1 yet.
As to postrib, it's clear from Acts 3:21 that Jesus doesn't return to earth until the "times of restoration", which means AFTER the Trib, obviously.
2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" (the better word than "rapture") follows the "coming of the Lord", and context proves that this refers to the Second Advent.
And Rev 20:5 speaks of the glorification of martyred saints from the Trib is described as "the FIRST resurrection". So that proves that there is NO previous resurrection of humans.
There is ONLY ONE "FIRST" resurrection, and it obviously occurs AFTER the Trib.
But only those who have "eyes to see and ears to hear" will.
The rest have conjecture and construct for their own ideas. But no Scripture.
If only there was a verse!
Then how's come you (nor anyone else) has provided even 1 such verse? You claim "several" but you haven't provided even 1 yet.
As to postrib, it's clear from Acts 3:21 that Jesus doesn't return to earth until the "times of restoration", which means AFTER the Trib, obviously.
2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" (the better word than "rapture") follows the "coming of the Lord", and context proves that this refers to the Second Advent.
And Rev 20:5 speaks of the glorification of martyred saints from the Trib is described as "the FIRST resurrection". So that proves that there is NO previous resurrection of humans.
There is ONLY ONE "FIRST" resurrection, and it obviously occurs AFTER the Trib.
But only those who have "eyes to see and ears to hear" will.
The rest have conjecture and construct for their own ideas. But no Scripture.
Let me start out with this:
--Jesus said,
"I AM THE RESURRECTION, AND THE LIFE" - John 11:25
--re: "THE RESURRECTION" He says, "...though he were DEAD, yet SHALL he LIVE" (i.e. "resurrection")
--re: "and THE LIFE" He says, "... AND whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?"
... so in view of this, let's talk for a minute about the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (FOR "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there), all of the following ppl referred to this very thing: Job 19:25-27, Daniel 12:13, Martha in John 11:24... they knew well about "resurrection [to stand again (on the earth)]"...
... and Jesus had said, "IN THE RESURRECTION, neither do they marry, nor are given in marriage, but they are like angels in heaven." (recall, I said "resurrection" meaning "to stand again [on the earth]"... so I'm not saying this verse says they'll BE in heaven like angels are, but that they'll be "LIKE ANGELS"... (so Rev20:4b is the LAST of those saints to have died, who will be RESURRECTED [to stand again (ON THE EARTH)] *for* [/in time for] the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom... these (and others: OT saints) will be "LIKE ANGELS" / "LIKE the ANGELS" (Jesus had said, "in the resurrection");
--Those in 20:4a are STILL-LIVING mortals [saints only (see Dan7:22)] (who will be the ONLY ones capable of reproducing/bearing children throughout the MK age) who will ENTER the MK age [same as the others do] but since they are STILL-LIVING mortals (like Dan12:13 and many other "BLESSED" passages), Jesus says OF THEM, "[they] SHALL NEVER DIE"... now, how can this be SO??
(Because Jesus SAID SO!, for one reason... And He will be REIGNING, so its all HIS CALL to sustain LIFE in such a way!! ["I AM THE LIFE"... and HE SAID SO!])
...now, this is just the INTRO to what all I hope to eventually cover on this Subject, if time (or even any interest) allows... I hope at least someone is trackin' with me here... lol
--Jesus said,
"I AM THE RESURRECTION, AND THE LIFE" - John 11:25
--re: "THE RESURRECTION" He says, "...though he were DEAD, yet SHALL he LIVE" (i.e. "resurrection")
--re: "and THE LIFE" He says, "... AND whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?"
... so in view of this, let's talk for a minute about the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (FOR "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there), all of the following ppl referred to this very thing: Job 19:25-27, Daniel 12:13, Martha in John 11:24... they knew well about "resurrection [to stand again (on the earth)]"...
... and Jesus had said, "IN THE RESURRECTION, neither do they marry, nor are given in marriage, but they are like angels in heaven." (recall, I said "resurrection" meaning "to stand again [on the earth]"... so I'm not saying this verse says they'll BE in heaven like angels are, but that they'll be "LIKE ANGELS"... (so Rev20:4b is the LAST of those saints to have died, who will be RESURRECTED [to stand again (ON THE EARTH)] *for* [/in time for] the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom... these (and others: OT saints) will be "LIKE ANGELS" / "LIKE the ANGELS" (Jesus had said, "in the resurrection");
--Those in 20:4a are STILL-LIVING mortals [saints only (see Dan7:22)] (who will be the ONLY ones capable of reproducing/bearing children throughout the MK age) who will ENTER the MK age [same as the others do] but since they are STILL-LIVING mortals (like Dan12:13 and many other "BLESSED" passages), Jesus says OF THEM, "[they] SHALL NEVER DIE"... now, how can this be SO??
(Because Jesus SAID SO!, for one reason...
And He will be REIGNING, so its all HIS CALL to sustain LIFE in such a way!! ["I AM THE LIFE"... and HE SAID SO!])...now, this is just the INTRO to what all I hope to eventually cover on this Subject, if time (or even any interest) allows... I hope at least someone is trackin' with me here... lol
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