Calvinists are preaching a false message .

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,166
30,313
113
Agreed. It is God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that draws us to God, it is not we ourselves
that can draw ourselves, and ordain ourselves, or appoint ourselves to eternal life with God....
He draws all to Himself...
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
He draws all to Himself...
God draws all of His chosen of humanity, ie. God's "vessels of mercy" to Himself, where those drawn to God, specifically excludes those of humanity destined for damnation, ie. God's "vessels of wrath":

Romans 9 (New King James Version)

22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
Acts 13 (New King James Version)
Blessing and Conflict at Antioch
48Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Who do you say appoints or ordains humans to eternal life or eternal damnation
?
One of the first definitions supplied in his post was "stationed"... (and I had mentioned BibleHub shows "Middle Voice or Passive Voice" for that word)... let's suppose for a minute that the verse reads: "And as many as were stationed unto [eis] eternal life believed."

The entire CONTEXT makes sense for the Gentiles to have "stationed" (themselves [middle voice option]), and that the Jews had not "stationed" (themselves), "unto eternal life" (shown by the previous words in the CONTEXT--namely, in vv.39,41,42,45,46, and even here in v.48)... Bear in mind, "[stationed] unto eternal life" doesn't mean they granted it to themselves. It just means they were "GLAD" to have heard that which was stated (by Paul and Barnabas) in v.47, and had even "ASKED" to hear from them [/what they were saying] again (back in v.42).

[the outcome of the matter being that they "believed"]
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
One of the first definitions supplied in his post was "stationed"... (and I had mentioned BibleHub shows "Middle Voice or Passive Voice" for that word)... let's suppose for a minute that the verse reads: "And as many as were stationed unto [eis] eternal life believed."

The entire CONTEXT makes sense for the Gentiles to have "stationed" (themselves [middle voice option]), and that the Jews had not "stationed" (themselves), "unto eternal life" (shown by the previous words in the CONTEXT--namely, in vv.39,41,42,45,46, and even here in v.48)... Bear in mind, "[stationed] unto eternal life" doesn't mean they granted it to themselves. It just means they were "GLAD" to have heard that which was stated (by Paul and Barnabas) in v.47, and had even "ASKED" to hear from them [/what they were saying] again (back in v.42).

[the outcome of the matter being that they "believed"]
Passive voice implies inactivity by the subject noun, with an external force being enacted upon the subject noun - whilst active voice implies activity by the subject noun. By your own words, you acknowledge that the subject noun "were stationed" in the passive voice by some other force acting upon it - the subject noun cannot "were stationed" themselves???
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
Passive voice implies inactivity by the subject noun, with an external force being enacted upon the subject noun - whilst active voice implies activity by the subject noun. By your own words, you acknowledge that the subject noun "were stationed" in the passive voice by some other force acting upon it - the subject noun cannot "were stationed" themselves???
Help me out with this grammar thing... check out the word "were" at this link [at the end of this section of my post], and notice what is indicated about it, in the right-side column, where it says "V-IIA-3P - https://biblehub.com/grammar/greek.htm "... (I mean, in view of the choice between "middle or passive voice" for the G5021 word under discussion) : Acts 13:48 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)


By your own words, you acknowledge that the subject noun "were stationed" in the passive voice by some other force acting upon it - the subject noun cannot "were stationed" themselves???
I happen to disagree, I think... "the coaches were stationed at either side of the field" doesn't necessarily mean they didn't place themselves in such a situation, does it??
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
I know some people consider this to be the meaning:

[from Strong's, G5021 - tassō ]

"to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. Assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot)"




So, in the "middle voice," wouldn't it be something like,

"Ted and Bill were disposed unto chocolate ice cream" (meaning, "inclined toward" or "they decided on" it... or along those lines)



[meaning... to HEAR further from them about Jesus...]
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
Help me out with this grammar thing... check out the word "were" at this link [at the end of this section of my post], and notice what is indicated about it, in the right-side column, where it says "V-IIA-3P - https://biblehub.com/grammar/greek.htm "... (I mean, in view of the choice between "middle or passive voice" for the G5021 word under discussion) : Acts 13:48 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)
Pleasure "TheDivineWatermark":

Acts 13:48, G1510[e], "were", Greek grammar: "Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active - 3rd Person Plural
Acts13vs48-were.jpg

Acts 13:48, G5021[e], "appointed", Greek grammar: "Verb - Perfect Participle Middle or Passive - Nominative Masculine"
Acts13vs48-appointed.jpg

I happen to disagree, I think... "the coaches were stationed at either side of the field" doesn't necessarily mean they didn't place themselves in such a situation, does it??
I happen to disagree, I think... "the coaches were stationed at either side of the field" does necessarily mean they didn't place themselves in such a situation, because the passive voice is indicative of an external active force, it might be indicative of some authority or ruling over them, acting upon them as the subject, isn't it?? If they placed themselves in such a position, the text would have clearly been in the active voice, reading "the coaches stationed themselves at either side of the field", wouldn't it?? When distilling truth, always remember KISS, "keep it simple Sam"...
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
He draws all to Himself...
Correct. And that is through the preaching of the Gospel and the drawing of the Holy Spirit. But all will not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. God excludes no one from salvation. They simply exclude themselves.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
I know some people consider this to be the meaning:

[from Strong's, G5021 - tassō ]

"to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. Assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot)"




So, in the "middle voice," wouldn't it be something like,

"Ted and Bill were disposed unto chocolate ice cream" (meaning, "inclined toward" or "they decided on" it... or along those lines)



[meaning... to HEAR further from them about Jesus...]
KISS (keep it simple Sam):

Acts 13 (New King James Version)

49And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region

Is "the word of the Lord" "was being spread" in the passive voice, indicative to your comprehension of language, that "the word of the Lord" is spreading itself??? Some force was acting upon "the word of the Lord", therefor it "was being spread" by this force acting upon it...KISS

now, also in the passive voice, one verse earlier:

Acts 13 (New King James Version)

48Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Is "many" "had been appointed to eternal life" in the passive voice, indicative to your comprehension of language, that "many" appointed themselves to eternal life??? Some force was acting upon "many", therefor they "had been appointed to eternal life" by this force acting upon them...

This force appointing to eternal life is God, and it is the sole ability of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to appoint to eternal life ...

KISS
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
Correct. And that is through the preaching of the Gospel and the drawing of the Holy Spirit. But all will not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. God excludes no one from salvation. They simply exclude themselves.
That is incorrect, and not scriptural.

Our righteous God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, had beforehand prepared vessels of wrath for destruction, and mercifully beforehand prepared vessels of mercy, for His glory.

Romans 9 (New King James Version)

22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
Our righteous God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, had beforehand prepared vessels of wrath for destruction, and mercifully beforehand prepared vessels of mercy, for His glory.
You will need to interpret this in the light of Romans 10.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
Romans 9 (New King James Version)

22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
I too find bold facing to be helpful...

Romans
9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

God could have limited salvation to only an elect and chosen few, but praise be to Jesus, He did not.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Correct. And that is through the preaching of the Gospel and the drawing of the Holy Spirit. But all will not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. God excludes no one from salvation. They simply exclude themselves.
If you mean ' draw ' by this ?
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12¶I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
...but your method of "KISS" seems to have merely been to go through the listing of "versions" to find one that seems to you to agree with the point you are attempting to make. ;)



How about considering another similarly-worded verse... with the word "were [V-IIA-3P]" (like our present verse) followed by a verb in the "M/P" (Middle or Passive Voice, like our present verse), followed by the word "unto [eis]" (like our present verse):

[quoted in part to save space]

Luke 24:13 -

[...]

1722 [e] ἐν
en on Prep

846 [e] αὐτῇ
autē same PPro-DF3S

3588 [e] τῇ
tē the Art-DFS

2250 [e] ἡμέρᾳ
hēmera day N-DFS

1510 [e] ἦσαν
ēsan were V-IIA-3P

4198 [e] πορευόμενοι
poreuomenoi going V-PP
M/P-NMP

1519 [e] εἰς
eis to Prep

2968 [e] κώμην
kōmēn a village N-AFS

568 [e] ἀπέχουσαν
apechousan being distant, V-PPA-AFS

4712 [e] σταδίους
stadious stadia N-AMP

1835 [e] ἑξήκοντα
hexēkonta sixty Adj-AMP

575 [e] ἀπὸ
apo from Prep

2419 [e] Ἰερουσαλήμ,
Ierousalēm Jerusalem, N-GFS

3739 [e] ᾗ
hē whose RelPro-DFS

3686 [e] ὄνομα
onoma name [is] N-NNS

1695 [e] Ἐμμαοῦς,
Emmaous Emmaus; N-NFS


["who" was doing the action, here? (in this "action - 'GOING'"... was it someone else acting upon them?? [I think NOT, how 'bout you? What do *you* think?])]



...the only difference here is with the main verb "going" is "V-PPM/P-NMP" (PRESENT tense) rather than "V-RPM/P-NMP" (PERFECT tense)...

...but this "PERFECT tense" (in our verse under discussion), meaning, "ACTION COMPLETED at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST (●) with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT (▬►). In certain contexts the results are PERMANENT"... , doesn't give anyone a clue as to "how long in the past" it was done/completed... THAT comes via the rest of the CONTEXT, which we already showed that the previous verses in the CONTEXT tell us things like what the TEXT of vv.39,41,42,45,46 had SAID about those very ppl just THE WEEK PRIOR. (Hello! Major CLUE, here [as to the "PERFECT TENSE" application], WITHIN the very CONTEXT of this passage! ;) ) Tada! (Simple!)

= )
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
6000 years ago, a man named Adam made a bad Choice. Spiritual death fell upon the human race. 2000 years ago, Jesus came down from Heaven and shed His blood in order that we might have the opportunity to make a better choice. Soon after, Satan came up with another lie. Satan told men that they did not have the freedom to choose to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. We call this devilish false doctrine 'Calvinism'.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
6000 years ago, a man named Adam made a bad Choice. Spiritual death fell upon the human race. 2000 years ago, Jesus came down from Heaven and shed His blood in order that we might have the opportunity to make a better choice. Soon after, Satan came up with another lie. Satan told men that they did not have the freedom to choose to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. We call this devilish false doctrine 'Calvinism'.
Sin exists solely because of man's freedom to choose. Without freedom to choose, man has only obedience to the will of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Fortunately our God is not only righteous, but out of His mercy he elected a chosen few to be saved.

Ephesians 2 (New King James Version)

8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
Romans
5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.