Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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What you just used is called a deflection. You attempted to divert the subject to church denominations. This shows the weakness of your position.
As for me, I'm doing great with believing what the Bible says. You on the other hand have spent dozens of pages twisting and contorting scripture to your false pre-tribulation dispensational premillennialism false doctrine that was invented in or around 1860.
The Biblical depiction of the end times aligns well with what is known as historical premillennialism.
-Will Jesus return physically? Yes
-When will Jesus return? After tribulation;before millennium.
-Do the rapture and second coming of Christ occur at the same time? Yes
-Will there be a great tribulation? Yes
-Will Christians suffer during the tribulation? Yes. Christians will go through the tribulation and ensure suffering and persecution for the cause of Christ.
As for me, I'm doing great with believing what the Bible says. You on the other hand have spent dozens of pages twisting and contorting scripture to your false pre-tribulation dispensational premillennialism false doctrine that was invented in or around 1860.
The Biblical depiction of the end times aligns well with what is known as historical premillennialism.
-Will Jesus return physically? Yes
-When will Jesus return? After tribulation;before millennium.
-Do the rapture and second coming of Christ occur at the same time? Yes
-Will there be a great tribulation? Yes
-Will Christians suffer during the tribulation? Yes. Christians will go through the tribulation and ensure suffering and persecution for the cause of Christ.
My friend I have more understanding of the Rapture in my little finger than you do in your entire body. I have seen absolutely nothing whatsoever in the Scripture to convince me otherwise.
The Rapture is one of the imperturbable invincible Biblical doctrines. Trust me when I tell you it is my blessed hope. I have unshakable confidence that Christ will remove me BEFORE the time of Gods Wrath. At my age I may not be in the body at the time of the Rapture....but as I am heeding the command of my Lord Jesus to WATCH, it is VERY apparent to me that the end times are truly upon us. At the very door. I may very well be alive at that time. The Rapture is the end of the Day of Jesus Christ.....perhaps you fail to understand this as well.
A failure to understand and a failure to watch is going to leave many so-called Christians abandoned to the horrors of the Tribulation.
I thank my God my Father for His mercy on my behalf in that He will send the Son of Man to retrieve us His Bride before that time comes. Believe me I don't deserve it but I receive it eagerly. And proclaim it to others as often as I can.
The Rapture is one of the imperturbable invincible Biblical doctrines. Trust me when I tell you it is my blessed hope. I have unshakable confidence that Christ will remove me BEFORE the time of Gods Wrath. At my age I may not be in the body at the time of the Rapture....but as I am heeding the command of my Lord Jesus to WATCH, it is VERY apparent to me that the end times are truly upon us. At the very door. I may very well be alive at that time. The Rapture is the end of the Day of Jesus Christ.....perhaps you fail to understand this as well.
A failure to understand and a failure to watch is going to leave many so-called Christians abandoned to the horrors of the Tribulation.
I thank my God my Father for His mercy on my behalf in that He will send the Son of Man to retrieve us His Bride before that time comes. Believe me I don't deserve it but I receive it eagerly. And proclaim it to others as often as I can.
Like many others before you, you have attempted to separate the second coming of Christ into an event separate from the rapture. Again, there is no verse about the rapture that does not involve the second coming of Christ; the rapture and the second coming of Christ occur together.
Let's put a nail in the pre-tribulation rapture coffin:
Revelation 20:4-6 says that saints who were killed during the mark of the beast period – the Great Tribulation – would be part of the “first” resurrection. This conflicts with the pre-tribulation rapture theory, which states that the first resurrection happens before the mark of the beast.
In other words you got it wrong. Christians are along for the ride for the great tribulation. It'll be time to buckle down.
Let's put a nail in the pre-tribulation rapture coffin:
Revelation 20:4-6 says that saints who were killed during the mark of the beast period – the Great Tribulation – would be part of the “first” resurrection. This conflicts with the pre-tribulation rapture theory, which states that the first resurrection happens before the mark of the beast.
In other words you got it wrong. Christians are along for the ride for the great tribulation. It'll be time to buckle down.
Another misapprehension on your part. There are multiple groups/categories of the Redeemed that accrue to the first resurrection. For example the wave offering Redeemed which were resurrected along with Christ back in 32AD. They are but a tiny a segment of the much larger group of the first resurrection no doubt about that.
Every mature serious sober knowledgeable Christian knows and understands this. You can read and find out for yourself if you care to.
Every mature serious sober knowledgeable Christian knows and understands this. You can read and find out for yourself if you care to.
Pre-trib does not teach Jesus comes to earth in the coming to gather the Church. He comes from the third heaven to the atmosphere, then resurrects the dead in Christ, proceded by the rapture of the living saints at the time. Thus fulfilling John 14:1-3 to take us back to God's house. In post-trib land this never happens and we do a U-turn and come right back to earth.
Yes that is correct. Jesus does NOT set foot on the earth per se at the time of the Rapture. We are then either resurrected or transformed to meet him in the AIR. We are then taken to abide in the Fathers house, that which Christ has prepared for us per John 14. It is only AFTER this event occurs that the Restrainer is removed, and the man of sin is revealed which kicks off the 70th week of Dan 9.......THE Tribulation aka the DOTL aka THE time of God's wrath.
As we all know at the time of the SC Jesus DOES set His feet directly upon the mount of olives.
Zech 14:4
https://www.blueletterbible.org/nkjv/zec/14/1/s_925001
As we all know at the time of the SC Jesus DOES set His feet directly upon the mount of olives.
Zech 14:4
https://www.blueletterbible.org/nkjv/zec/14/1/s_925001
Um no. Pre-tribulation states that the first resurrection occurs when Christ returns. Do I need to tell you what you believe? You believe that Christ returns before the GT and the dead in Christ are raised first. Revelation 20:4-6 contradicts your false doctrine.
Sorry, but no thanks. I'll stick with what the Bible teaches.
The Bible teaches there will be a resurrection at the second coming of Christ. It occurs after the tribulation because there's no way to resurrect tribulation saints before the tribulation. There's a resurrection for saints and the resurrection for the wicked, sheep and goats.
The parable of the wheat and the tares (Matt 13 verses 24-30 and 36-43) describes the harvest of the wicked and good as one simultaneous event, not two events separated by seven years.
Now what did Jesus say His second return would be like? The flood in the days of Noah. What happened in the flood? The wicked died ans the righteous were saved.
Bottom line: conclusively Jesus returns after the great tribulation, resurrection after tribulation, rapture after tribulation. There's no other plausible explanation.
Sorry, but no thanks. I'll stick with what the Bible teaches.
The Bible teaches there will be a resurrection at the second coming of Christ. It occurs after the tribulation because there's no way to resurrect tribulation saints before the tribulation. There's a resurrection for saints and the resurrection for the wicked, sheep and goats.
The parable of the wheat and the tares (Matt 13 verses 24-30 and 36-43) describes the harvest of the wicked and good as one simultaneous event, not two events separated by seven years.
Now what did Jesus say His second return would be like? The flood in the days of Noah. What happened in the flood? The wicked died ans the righteous were saved.
Bottom line: conclusively Jesus returns after the great tribulation, resurrection after tribulation, rapture after tribulation. There's no other plausible explanation.
Israel suffering in the midst of the GT.....check.
Jesus returning to the earth WITH a complement of His first resurrection saints....check.
Zech 14:5
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Jesus returning to the earth WITH a complement of His first resurrection saints....check.
Zech 14:5
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
You will not be preaching to me because you're on ignore. Bye-bye.
I don't think you're going to enjoy yourself during the Tribulation period. The hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world.......except for the Bride of Christ the Church. The kings and priests seated on thrones of Rev 4 & 5. They are watching the tribulation from the mezzanine.
I don't think you're going to enjoy yourself during the Tribulation period. The hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world.......except for the Bride of Christ the Church. The kings and priests seated on thrones of Rev 4 & 5. They are watching the tribulation from the mezzanine.
Honestly, that's not a good reason to ignore someone and it's unChristian to be so callous. Suit yourself. Meanwhile the mission continues.
You being wrong about the rapture or when the return of Christ happens is definitely not a salvation issue. Salvation is by the once and for all 'it is finished' work of Christ and our faith on that. Not in our ability to parse end-times doctrine from the Bible. So that's yet another false doctrine you hold. It's actually dangerous ground to say salvation can be effected by interpretation of the end-times. That's definitely an unBiblical doctrine.
You being wrong about the rapture or when the return of Christ happens is definitely not a salvation issue. Salvation is by the once and for all 'it is finished' work of Christ and our faith on that. Not in our ability to parse end-times doctrine from the Bible. So that's yet another false doctrine you hold. It's actually dangerous ground to say salvation can be effected by interpretation of the end-times. That's definitely an unBiblical doctrine.
do you think it has anything to do with them believing what Jesus taught them to believe in the everlasting gospel though ? What I’m saying is did they believe they were having to endure tribulation to enter into the kingdom because he taught them that ?
Do you think instead of us debating maybe they believes this ?
“For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Mark 13:8-10, 12-13 KJV
it’s interesting that Paul had just been stoned and left for dead , and the apostles had gathered around him and he got up just before they are encouraging the church about reminding them “ if you unsure hreatbtribulations in the world for the sake of believing the gospel , don’t lose heart or be surprised do not turn from God even facing death and your soul will be saved “
in those days tribulation was very physical thousands of Christians and Jews were slaughtered in the following years after christs ascension to the throne in heaven
While even today somewhere in the world Christians die for their faith in some third world country there are many forms of persecution that are more destructive because they are harder to understand and much more deceptive
there’s a reason so many of us Christians who believe in the lord with all our hearts are struggling with depression , disease , a reason why a person can be living a great godly life not perfect but walking in the lords word and doing. On harm and someone else can come by and shoot them for no reason and rob them
think about that brother we know God is the ultimate authority so how do believers still have sommuch suffering in this world why do they have terrible diseases , why do they get persecuted and excluded and insulted ? In this world surely that’s not Gods will for a person to suffer for their righteous faith in him ?
the thing is that Satan has authority in this world over everyone who does. It accept and believe the gospel , so the whole world outside the church not knowing it are being set up against Gods people because of his word .
He is warning us about things ahead of time telling us to hold on no matter what comes in the future to his promises of the kingdom because Satan is at wer with us the church and we need to take it seriously and gear up with the armor of God and strike down the enemy with the sword of the spirit were on a battle field
Do you think instead of us debating maybe they believes this ?
“For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Mark 13:8-10, 12-13 KJV
it’s interesting that Paul had just been stoned and left for dead , and the apostles had gathered around him and he got up just before they are encouraging the church about reminding them “ if you unsure hreatbtribulations in the world for the sake of believing the gospel , don’t lose heart or be surprised do not turn from God even facing death and your soul will be saved “
in those days tribulation was very physical thousands of Christians and Jews were slaughtered in the following years after christs ascension to the throne in heaven
While even today somewhere in the world Christians die for their faith in some third world country there are many forms of persecution that are more destructive because they are harder to understand and much more deceptive
there’s a reason so many of us Christians who believe in the lord with all our hearts are struggling with depression , disease , a reason why a person can be living a great godly life not perfect but walking in the lords word and doing. On harm and someone else can come by and shoot them for no reason and rob them
think about that brother we know God is the ultimate authority so how do believers still have sommuch suffering in this world why do they have terrible diseases , why do they get persecuted and excluded and insulted ? In this world surely that’s not Gods will for a person to suffer for their righteous faith in him ?
the thing is that Satan has authority in this world over everyone who does. It accept and believe the gospel , so the whole world outside the church not knowing it are being set up against Gods people because of his word .
He is warning us about things ahead of time telling us to hold on no matter what comes in the future to his promises of the kingdom because Satan is at wer with us the church and we need to take it seriously and gear up with the armor of God and strike down the enemy with the sword of the spirit were on a battle field
No, no u-turn.
Jesus returns and we are resurrected or transformed to join his procession on the clouds as he arrives.
The pre-trib scenario requires a u-turn.
Believers who have been dwelling in heaven return to the earth to receive their resurrected bodies.
Then do a u-turn all the way back to the throne room of heaven for a 7-year party. Then come back again.
Jesus returns and we are resurrected or transformed to join his procession on the clouds as he arrives.
The pre-trib scenario requires a u-turn.
Believers who have been dwelling in heaven return to the earth to receive their resurrected bodies.
Then do a u-turn all the way back to the throne room of heaven for a 7-year party. Then come back again.
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Ok Thank you.
At least I can see what you have in mind. This is why we argue. You have very different ideas than I do.
I was wondering what you had in mind regarding the harvest vision because that was what you seem to want to focus on more than anything.
So you see the end time harvest as "Jews only". I don't. I can see where a pre-trib belief would force you into that though.
I must disagree that the depth of the end times is hidden. Hidden to the world at large, yes but not to believers.
The end times is well detailed in all the Prophets from Moses forward. It really isn't hidden to anyone familiar with the scriptures. Jesus & The Apostles referred us to it a lot. We don't have to insert a narrative that isn't there.
At least I can see what you have in mind. This is why we argue. You have very different ideas than I do.
I was wondering what you had in mind regarding the harvest vision because that was what you seem to want to focus on more than anything.
So you see the end time harvest as "Jews only". I don't. I can see where a pre-trib belief would force you into that though.
I must disagree that the depth of the end times is hidden. Hidden to the world at large, yes but not to believers.
The end times is well detailed in all the Prophets from Moses forward. It really isn't hidden to anyone familiar with the scriptures. Jesus & The Apostles referred us to it a lot. We don't have to insert a narrative that isn't there.
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