Matthew 6:14-15

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John146

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#1
Jan 13, 2016
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#1
If one believes the sermon on the mount is doctrine for the body of Christ, then one must conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others. This would be a work of obedience.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I do not believe the sermon on the mount is Christian doctrine but rather doctrine for the Jew living in the millennium kingdom on earth where Christ will reign on the throne of David. The sermon on the mount is a kind of constitutional guide to living in this kingdom.
 
K

KingdomBrat

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#2
Oct 19, 2020
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#2
Obviously, those Verses are a part of the Lord's Prayer. I take them as solid gold Gospel. They come directly from Christ Himself. And I take those Verses as [literal] in their meaning.
 
J

John146

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#3
Jan 13, 2016
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KingdomBrat said:
Obviously, those Verses are a part of the Lord's Prayer. I take them as solid gold Gospel. They come directly from Christ Himself. And I take those Verses as [literal] in their meaning.
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You would conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others? Isn’t this a works based forgiveness?
 
K

KingdomBrat

Banned
#4
Oct 19, 2020
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#4
John146 said:
You would conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others? Isn’t this a works based forgiveness?
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My intentions are to forgive. Nothing I can do can keep/lose my Salvation when it's a [free gift]. I'm sure if I were to forget to forgive someone on my death bed God isn't holding it against me. But I have just adapted the need to forgive others based solely on these Verses alone. I want to forgive others. It wouldn't be a work to me because I want to offer forgiveness like God has forgiven me. It ultimately has calmed me down in life. I am thankful for it.
 
Corban

Corban

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#5
Jun 11, 2020
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#5
John146 said:
If one believes the sermon on the mount is doctrine for the body of Christ, then one must conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others. This would be a work of obedience.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I do not believe the sermon on the mount is Christian doctrine but rather doctrine for the Jew living in the millennium kingdom on earth where Christ will reign on the throne of David. The sermon on the mount is a kind of constitutional guide to living in this kingdom.
Click to expand...
The Book of Matthew does not address salvation from ones sin ans sins. It is a Book on the Kingdom. And for the Kingdom, works are required, the overall work being OBEDIENCE (7:21). Even in John 3:3-5, where the fundamental qualification for the Kingdom is taught, rebirth is by FAITH (vs.3, 14-16) and this is required to SEE the Kingdom. But to ENTER the Kingdom it needs rebirth AND Baptism. Baptism is an act by the believer - and act of obedience. Throughout the Book of Matthew, the entry into the Kingdom is by foundation of faith built upon by obedience to pre-ordained works.

Matthew 5, 6 & 7 - the so-called "Sermon on the Mount" is directed at "Disciples" ONLY. Check the grammar of Matthew 5:1–2;

And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,"

The pronoun refers to the last mentioned noun unless shown otherwise by gender/plural etc. Although our Lord was heard by the multitude, His teaching was directed at "disciples" only.
 
Dino246

Dino246

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#6
Jun 30, 2015
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#6
John146 said:
If one believes the sermon on the mount is doctrine for the body of Christ, then one must conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others. This would be a work of obedience.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I do not believe the sermon on the mount is Christian doctrine but rather doctrine for the Jew living in the millennium kingdom on earth where Christ will reign on the throne of David. The sermon on the mount is a kind of constitutional guide to living in this kingdom.
Click to expand...
Jesus was speaking to the Jews right in front of Him.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#7
Jul 18, 2017
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#7
John146 said:
If one believes the sermon on the mount is doctrine for the body of Christ, then one must conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others. This would be a work of obedience.
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You are rather confused. Forgiving others is not a work. It is a decision to stop holding grudges, and deciding NOT to take revenge on those who have done you harm. It is an ATTITUDE.

As to the Sermon on the Mount, since it is the teaching of Christ Himself, it is a part of the Law of Christ. Therefore we cannot hold grudges and expect God to forgive us.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#9
Jan 13, 2016
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#9
Nehemiah6 said:
You are rather confused. Forgiving others is not a work. It is a decision to stop holding grudges, and deciding NOT to take revenge on those who have done you harm. It is an ATTITUDE.

As to the Sermon on the Mount, since it is the teaching of Christ Himself, it is a part of the Law of Christ. Therefore we cannot hold grudges and expect God to forgive us.
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God has forgiven me regardless of my attitude in forgiving others. My forgiveness is based upon what Jesus accomplished at the cross.
 
Corban

Corban

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#11
Jun 11, 2020
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#11
John146 said:
God has forgiven me regardless of my attitude in forgiving others. My forgiveness is based upon what Jesus accomplished at the cross.
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John146 said:
Forgiveness is conditioned on us first forgiving others? Nope.
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It would be wise to make a difference to sins committed BEFORE your conversion and sins committed AFTER. Sins before conversion are forgiven ON CONDITION that you believe in, and confess Jesus Christ. This averts damnation. Sins after conversion are forgiven ON CONDITION that you uphold the testimony of God's work in Christ. This averts chastisement. Matthew 18:21-35 lays forth unequivocally that any one who is a "brother" OR a fellow servant does not forgive is also not forgiven.

The base principle of forgiveness IN Christ is that God's retribution falls on Jesus, not you. So also it is when you forgive a brother. There is no cancellation of retribution. It fell on Christ. But if you want the offense of a brother to fall on himself, God does the same for you. His retribution then falls on you. The Parabale shows how unwise this is, for your account before God is probably a thousand times worse that that brother's one offense. It is simply bad business to swap one offense to be paid by your broter for a thousand offenses to be paid by you.
​
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#12
Sep 17, 2016
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#12
John146 said:
If one believes the sermon on the mount is doctrine for the body of Christ, then one must conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others. This would be a work of obedience.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I do not believe the sermon on the mount is Christian doctrine but rather doctrine for the Jew living in the millennium kingdom on earth where Christ will reign on the throne of David. The sermon on the mount is a kind of constitutional guide to living in this kingdom.
Click to expand...
The Sermon on the mount starts with knowledge that Jesus came to fulfill the law. Why? Jesus then proceeds to expand on the law as murder wasn't just an action but in the mind also. Basically he begins to show the extent of keeping the law. Worrying was sinful.

Throughout Jesus ministry, he made a habit of showing if you wish to be perfect, you must follow the whole law. Well Jesus knew as God knows we are not capable. But it is by the law we see our sin, and this leads to repentance. It is through faith by grace we are saved. Works come out of faith.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#13
Jan 13, 2016
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#13
Roughsoul1991 said:
The Sermon on the mount starts with knowledge that Jesus came to fulfill the law. Why? Jesus then proceeds to expand on the law as murder wasn't just an action but in the mind also. Basically he begins to show the extent of keeping the law. Worrying was sinful.

Throughout Jesus ministry, he made a habit of showing if you wish to be perfect, you must follow the whole law. Well Jesus knew as God knows we are not capable. But it is by the law we see our sin, and this leads to repentance. It is through faith by grace we are saved. Works come out of faith.
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Agreed, my forgiveness is not conditioned on me forgiving others. I’m sure there are countless people throughout my life that I have not forgiven.
 
Blik

Blik

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#14
Dec 6, 2016
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#14
John146 said:
You would conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others? Isn’t this a works based forgiveness?
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A work based forgiveness is to not accept the forgiveness that Christ offers, but wrongly think that the Lord will forgive you based on your works.

The demons have entered into the church, using work based religion to convince saved Christians not to work for the Lord. You are saved when you want to be saved (repent), ask Christ to forgive your sins, and have faith in Christ that He can and will do this. At that time you accept, through faith, all of Christ and take His spirit within you. You cannot have the righteousness of Christ within you and want to have sin within you. It is enough that you are in the flesh and will sin even though you don't want to, but you are not to call this working for salvation. You work, but it is the result of the righteousness that Christ gives you.

To accept Christ is to accept that our forgiveness of our sins is only through Christ. That results in our being righteous, and we live in that righteousness that is of Christ not ourselves.
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

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#15
Sep 17, 2016
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#15
John146 said:
Agreed, my forgiveness is not conditioned on me forgiving others. I’m sure there are countless people throughout my life that I have not forgiven.
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If it was conditioned on the command not to worry well I broken that 3000 times with my anxiety condition.
 
T

throughfaith

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#16
Aug 4, 2020
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#16
I've literally had this verse used against me once ,when a christian assumed i was holding unforgiveness against him . I was told by him that God would not forgive me . He meant that in the strongest sense . Meaning i would go to hell . This is the problem when we don't rightly divide .
 
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Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#17
#17
Colossians 3:13
Ephesians 4: 31 & 32
Romans 12:18-20
1 Peter 3:9 and 4:8
1 john 4:11
2 Corinthians 2:10
There is more.
But it's simple really.
 
Blik

Blik

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#18
Dec 6, 2016
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#18
John146 said:
God has forgiven me regardless of my attitude in forgiving others. My forgiveness is based upon what Jesus accomplished at the cross.
Click to expand...
When the Lord gave us the Lord's Prayer He asks you how you could expect Him to forgive you if you won't forgive others. How would you answer Jesus?

Scripture says: Matt. 6:15 “But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
 
TMS

TMS

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#19
Mar 21, 2015
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Australia
#19
John146 said:
You would conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others? Isn’t this a works based forgiveness?
Click to expand...
Our forgiveness is not earned or gained by our works and Jesus wants to give it to all. Jesus did all the hard work to give forgiveness to everyone. When we are in heaven we can't have grudges in our hearts and anger in us towards people because of unforgiveness, this would be painful for us to live with. Jesus knows what is best and He knows that heaven it not a place for unforgiving people.

It may seem conditional because it is. But the conditions have been meet by Jesus and He will fulfil the conditions in you if you allow Him. We can't do it but Jesus has and will.
 
T

taylorswiftfan

Guest
#20
#20
faith without forgiveness is dead

you will be forgiven and saved if your faith is real

and if your faith is real then you will forgive people who do bad stuff to you
 
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