Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[Scribe]

The first thing you abandon is context. Authority in the church while reflective of what is established in Gods order of things cannot be expected to be followed in secular matters of unregenerate mankind.

I would appear that you support a line of thinking that lifts itself above the wisdom and knowledge of God. I understand that you feel uncomfortable when its are exposed as just another misguided soul following an already failed line of reasoning.

When you question scripture you eliminate any reasonable basis for discussion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I don't see any indication in the text of 1 Tim 2 that a woman can usurp authority over a man in the work place. This is an additional commentary in an attempt to make sense of what it means to usurp authority over a man. You interpret it as applying only to the church but that in the work place she is free to usurp authority over a man. I suggest that was not Paul's intention at all. Paul is saying that a wife should not domineer or usurp authority over her husband. This would apply to the church, at home and in the workplace.

 

[KingdomBrat]

Traditions are interesting. We know from the first few Centuries (Church Father's era) only a few people of most populations could actually read. Generally, the only people who owned Bibles were the ones who could read them. And that led to even worse traditions.

I said that to say this, maybe the majority of women could not read in Paul's day. The Disciples show their knowledge of the Tanakh so Yiddish men probably were the educated ones (Paul is a great example of being educated in the Torah). Maybe part of Paul's statement here is based upon who can read God's Word vs who could not (back then).

Today, everyone can basically read enough to survive. Much different than 1,600 - 5,000 years ago.

Let me give an extended quote here, with acknowledgement to the author
Meir Bar-Ilan:
Assessing the literacy rate in modern society is very easily accomplished
but the answer to this question in antiquity is the other way around.
Nonetheless, this percentage is reflected in one of the rules in Soferim
11:2 (ed. Higger, p. 218):
A town in which there is only one who reads; he stands up, reads (the
Torah), and sits down, he stands up, reads and sits down, even seven
times.

This is an example of how it was 2,000 years ago. For each village, there might be 1 man who could read. So, he did all of the reading to the others. I doubt women could read in Paul's day.

 

[Dino246]

Deborah should not be used as a New Testament church example.

See below.

Well it makes a great pretext even though it is completely out of context.

Roger, you invited my raising of Deborah as an example when you claimed that God has never raised a woman to a position of authority over men. You did not provide any context to your statement, so it is ridiculous for you to claim it is "out of context".

 

[Dino246]

I don't see any indication in the text of 1 Tim 2 that a woman can usurp authority over a man in the work place. This is an additional commentary in an attempt to make sense of what it means to usurp authority over a man. You interpret it as applying only to the church but that in the work place she is free to usurp authority over a man. I suggest that was not Paul's intention at all. Paul is saying that a wife should not domineer or usurp authority over her husband. This would apply to the church, at home and in the workplace.

No Christian should be "usurping" anything over or from anyone else, period.

 

[Dino246]

Absolutely crystal-clear. I really don't know what all the debating is all about. Other than it being the natural inclination of a sinning, rebellious and depraved heart.

More demeaning comments. You can't refute the arguments, so instead you dismiss the opponents.

Golf clap.

 

[Dino246]

Do you assume that Deborah stands in the same office as a Church pastor? I think you need to hit the books buddy. The Holy Spirit through Paul has laid down the order of the Church. Purposefully clearly unequivocally beyond all refutation. You either receive these doctrines and commandments (and they are commandments), or the Church has every right to excommunicate you.

Wow. Just how long is your Ignore list anyway?

 

[Dino246]

The first thing you abandon is context.

I would accuse you of doing exactly that.

When you question scripture you eliminate any reasonable basis for discussion.

I would respond, but I think it appropriate to ask first what you mean by "question scripture".

 

[Scribe]

The following is an opinion I have on the subject of women pastors. It is not a direct response to anyone.

Until recently my opinion (I stay open to new revelation in scripture) has been that in the US in particular women pastors are not going to be welcomed by the majority of people in a church or community as they feel that it is a violation of a New Testament Law against it.
And even though this is due to bad hermeneutics it is nevertheless deeply rooted in American religious denominational psyche.

The majority who oppose it cannot tell you where it is found in the bible. They have simply "grown up" with influences that told them that it was the case and they have adopted it as a cultural fact.

This being the case it would not be beneficial to attempt to "force" a female pastor upon a church or community where the majority of people would reject her biblical validity or call. In such cases it would be more in line with the "Law of Love" to place a male pastor in that position so that this objection to females in the ministry won't be a stumbling block to the main goal and that is of bringing as many people to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ before He comes again.

Being made all things to all people behooves us to work within the culture as we find it.
And so this is the reason that there are not many female pastors today.

However, the more I pray and seek God concerning Joel 2 which started on the day of Pentecost, and is still ongoing, and which I believe will have a very "Last of the Last Days" fulfilment, I see women being used in a might way and women pastors will become less culturally shocking.

Their gifts will make room for them. Just as Deborah and Huldah were submitted to because of the undeniable gifting's of the Holy Spirit upon them there will be women who will have God go before them and God will be their authority. No woman yielded to God's authority is usurping authority over a man. A woman who is prophesying and preaching the Word of God under the anointing and empowering of the Holy Spirit will be welcomed by those who hunger and thirst for the Word of a prophet and who are sick of the fluffy topical messages being preached by the majority that have no fresh word from the Throne of God.

Their gifts will make room for them.

This is happening all over the world. It is not uncommon in other places. I am actually praying that God will raise up women and give them an anointing and gifts 1000 times more powerful than any man just to demonstrate to the world that it is not by might nor by power but by my Spirit says the Lord. That God is able to save by many or by few, and he delights in taking something that men despise like a female pastor and show them that they have put limits on God by misinterpreting scriptures that He never intended and that Paul never intended them to mean. This is just like My God. I know that He is already answering that prayer.

It is a great day for women preachers to heed the call of God. They will have to have great faith and surrender to the will of God because Pharisees will try very hard to tell them that they can't.

This is my disposition on the matter. I won't go back and forth with anyone who replies that I am deceived or not obeying scriptures on the topic. I just wanted to let people know my position.

In summary I am saying that in most cases in the US especially it is going to more acceptable to appoint a male pastor and we should work within that culture. However in any culture if a woman feels called of God to do something she should just do it and let God sort it out.

 

[Magenta]

Do you assume that Deborah stands in the same office as a Church pastor? I think you need to hit the books buddy. The Holy Spirit through Paul has laid down the order of the Church. Purposefully clearly unequivocally beyond all refutation. You either receive these doctrines and commandments (and they are commandments), or the Church has every right to excommunicate you.

Perhaps you need to go back to Genesis and review why Eve was made for Adam.

When Eve was made for Adam, the term used to describe her role was ezer kenegdo.

Re: Hebrew ezer kenegdo. In Genesis 2:18, the word "helpmeet" does not occur. The Hebrew expression ezer kenegdo appears, meaning "one who is the same as the other and who surrounds, protects, aids, helps, supports." There is no indication of inferiority or of a secondary position in an hierarchical separation of the male and female "spheres" of responsibility, authority, or social position.

The word ezer is used twice in the Old Testament to refer to the female and 14 times to refer to God.
For example, in the Psalms when David says, "The Lord is my Helper," he uses the word ezer.

Click

and click again.

 

[notuptome]

I don't see any indication in the text of 1 Tim 2 that a woman can usurp authority over a man in the work place. This is an additional commentary in an attempt to make sense of what it means to usurp authority over a man. You interpret it as applying only to the church but that in the work place she is free to usurp authority over a man. I suggest that was not Paul's intention at all. Paul is saying that a wife should not domineer or usurp authority over her husband. This would apply to the church, at home and in the workplace.

Well women in the workplace are endowed with authority by the employer. The government of man vests authority in the workplace as it deems fit. God does not operate like men operate in the endowment of authority. As we continue to take the argument to it logical conclusion we find that women in the workplace and in the government are viewed as equals. This include military service where women are permitted to die by hostile action of the enemy. If you think this is a good thing then you are standing with man in opposition to God.

It seems so high and lofty to criticize the wisdom of God and make His word conform to man's morality but the end thereof is suffering.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

I would accuse you of doing exactly that.


I would respond, but I think it appropriate to ask first what you mean by "question scripture".

Read scripture and obey it. Trust God will give you understanding as you obey not as you question the merits of what God has declared.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Scribe]

Well women in the workplace are endowed with authority by the employer. The government of man vests authority in the workplace as it deems fit. God does not operate like men operate in the endowment of authority. As we continue to take the argument to it logical conclusion we find that women in the workplace and in the government are viewed as equals. This include military service where women are permitted to die by hostile action of the enemy. If you think this is a good thing then you are standing with man in opposition to God.

It seems so high and lofty to criticize the wisdom of God and make His word conform to man's morality but the end thereof is suffering.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Again you are making my point about being honest in the application of your values. If you believe that it is not God's will for a woman to have authority over a man in the army then you should stick to your principles. If you don't agree with submitting to a woman's authority then don't do it.

I am talking about being honest in conviction. Either submit or don't. Don't give excuses why you can abandon your principles when you leave the church. It does not matter why unbelievers do what they do, the point is that you don't believe a woman should have authority over you then you should not have a woman boss. You should turn down the job or quit. You are violating your principles if you submit to a woman's authority. If you did I think I could respect that man's opinion more than the one who changes his colors when it is not convenient.

 

[KingdomBrat]

With Gender Identity issues, Feminism, Individualism, and like, there's no wonder God would want Women to preach in the [current day]. There are now "rights' and movements including lifestyles that only a Woman would be heard. Yes, God does all of the work. And He can do it through women in places/gatherings/functions where [saved] men are socially unable to communicate at.

 

[notuptome]

Again you are making my point about being honest in the application of your values. If you believe that it is not God's will for a woman to have authority over a man in the army then you should stick to your principles. If you don't agree with submitting to a woman's authority then don't do it.

I am talking about being honest in conviction. Either submit or don't. Don't give excuses why you can abandon your principles when you leave the church. It does not matter why unbelievers do what they do, the point is that you don't believe a woman should have authority over you then you should not have a woman boss. You should turn down the job or quit. You are violating your principles if you submit to a woman's authority. If you did I think I could respect that man's opinion more than the one who changes his colors when it is not convenient.

You have a skewed viewpoint. God does not require me to insist on no women in any type of position of authority. God only states that women are not called to pastor His church.

Denominational indoctrination blinds one to the truth of scripture.

You continue to make accusations without merit as to what I do in the workplace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

Read scripture and obey it. Trust God will give you understanding as you obey not as you question the merits of what God has declared.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

"Judas went and hanged himself."
"Go and do thou likewise."
"What you are about to do, do quickly."

Don't argue with me. I didn't say it; Scripture did. Read Scripture and obey it.

Obviously, it's not as simple as you want to believe.

 

[Dino246]

You have a skewed viewpoint. God does not require me to insist on no women in any type of position of authority. God only states that women are not called to pastor His church.

No, He doesn't.

Denominational indoctrination blinds one to the truth of scripture.

On that point I agree with you.

 

[Dino246]

It seems so high and lofty to criticize the wisdom of God and make His word conform to man's morality but the end thereof is suffering.

It seems so high and lofty to conflate your interpretation of Scripture with Scripture itself, but the end thereof is suffering.

 

[Scribe]

You have a skewed viewpoint. God does not require me to insist on no women in any type of position of authority. God only states that women are not called to pastor His church.

Denominational indoctrination blinds one to the truth of scripture.

You continue to make accusations without merit as to what I do in the workplace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You just made that up. You cannot find any scripture that specifically says "women are not called to pastor His Church"
The verses you have used to present that idea do not say that. The verses used to establish your doctrine of women being under authority of man starts off with instructions on how they should dress and adorn themselves. It specifically says that they cannot braid their hair, wear gold, and pearls.

Now have you ever bought your wife pearls? Did she wear them? If you are going to use this passage to insist that a woman cannot teach the bible to a man (which it does not say) you must also insist that she does not wear pearls. Or gold. Or broided hair.

It is not possible to apply a cultural interpretation to verse 9-10 but not verse 11-12. One must be consistent in their "legalistic commandment, New Testament Law, don't ask questions just conform to my rule" type of interpretation. Otherwise they are not being intellectually honest with themselves. If you allow yourself an explanation of the intent behind the instructions on how they should not wear pearls to "not" mean it is a ban on wearing pearls, then you must also be willing to look into the intent of verse 12 as well.

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

 

[Scribe]

It seems so high and lofty to conflate your interpretation of Scripture with Scripture itself, but the end thereof is suffering.

Ohhh.. nice wording. Very poetic and powerful.

 

[notuptome]

You just made that up. You cannot find any scripture that specifically says "women are not called to pastor His Church"
The verses you have used to present that idea do not say that. The verses used to establish your doctrine of women being under authority of man starts off with instructions on how they should dress and adorn themselves. It specifically says that they cannot braid their hair, wear gold, and pearls.

Now have you ever bought your wife pearls? Did she wear them? If you are going to use this passage to insist that a woman cannot teach the bible to a man (which it does not say) you must also insist that she does not wear pearls. Or gold. Or broided hair.

It is not possible to apply a cultural interpretation to verse 9-10 but not verse 11-12. One must be consistent in their "legalistic commandment, New Testament Law, don't ask questions just conform to my rule" type of interpretation. Otherwise they are not being intellectually honest with themselves. If you allow yourself an explanation of the intent behind the instructions on how they should not wear pearls to "not" mean it is a ban on wearing pearls, then you must also be willing to look into the intent of verse 12 as well.

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

You continue to deny the simple truth of scripture. Paul admonished Timothy that the pastor of the church is to be the husband of one wife. Pastors are gifted to the church by God. God will not gift a pastor to the church that does not meet His qualifications. Men will choose for themselves pastors who will tell them what they want to hear.

You are welcome the heretical view of women pastors. Your denomination welcomes women and if they have not already done so will also welcome any others that will teach what the denomination wants taught. Apostacy cannot be choosey except they rule out all who would demand fidelity to the bible. You will be fed a constant diet of unsound doctrine laced with higher criticism of Gods word.

The denominational churches are in open rebellion to Gods word and Gods judgment is due them. Judgment begins at the house of God. God understands unsaved people will not seek righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger