Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

[Lisamn]

Sorta,but the 5 foolish are saved but not keeping extra oil.

Um..no.

Matthew‬ ‭25:8-12‬ ‭
The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’”​

‭‭

 

[Lisamn]

Quote
""I have never understood why God would take away the mature Christians only to raise up baby Christians...doesn’t it make more sense that He uses the mature Christians? Why would God take us away when we mature Christians will be called upon to trust Him in tribulation?""

Mat 25 is the gathering of the bride.
(The ones worthy are taken.)

Jesus said "...but pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the entire world..."

Jesus said "because you have kept the word of my testimony I will keep you from the hour of testing...."

(All 3 are "worthy" dynamics.)

What verse are you talking about that you may be counted worthy?

 

[Absolutely]

Loads of them. Repeatedly. If you don't read them it's your own fault.

How many more times do I have to post from 2 Thessalonians 1?
I've even posted it in your preferred KJV. You keep denying the the teaching of scripture.

It is spelled out for us EXACTLY WHEN the resurrection/"rapture" occurs. EXACTLY. One return.


2 Thess 1 (CSB)

5 It is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering,

6 since it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels,

8 when he takes vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious strength

10 on that day when he comes to be glorified by his saints and to be marveled at by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.

Yes let's look at it

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

100% in harmony with the pretrib rapture.

Read it without the spin.

But you still are not factoring in the rapture verses or even the purpose of the gathering of the bride or the purpose of the gt.

(As if one verse cancels 5)

 

[Absolutely]

Um..no.

Matthew‬ ‭25:8-12‬ ‭
The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’”​

‭‭

What do you think you proved?

 

[Lisamn]

What do you think you proved?

You said the foolish are saved...they don’t look to be saved to me.

 

[Rondonmon]

That is a false teaching. Why would God take His saints off the earth when we will be the ones that

Mark‬ ‭13:9-10‬ ‭
But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.​

‭‭
I have never understood why God would take away the mature Christians only to raise up baby Christians...doesn’t it make more sense that He uses the mature Christians? Why would God take us away when we mature Christians will be called upon to trust Him in tribulation?

I have been preaching for over 35 years and specifically called unto End Time Prophecy. I will never call anyone a false teacher unless I think they are really doing it with foreknowledge. We see darkly now. But we also have the holy spirit, when we are given something, we are supposed to KNOW, that we KNOW, that we KNOW, and I know on this brother. I am not just guessing.

The REASON (I am giving you the answer here) is because the MISSION of the Church is finished. Read Matt.24:14, when the Gospel has been taken unto the ends of the world, THEN the End (70th week) will come. We have no mission left. Why was Noah not TAKEN? Because Jesus was yet to be born. Why was Lot not TAKEN? Because Jesus was yet to be born. Why will the Church be TAKEN? Our mission on earth is complete, its judgment time. Read Rev. 14, the Angel PREACHERS THE GOSPEL to the world, and the Two-witnesses are testifying about God and about both his mercies and judgments. We are not needed per se. Now as to WHY there are Christians during the 70th week. Because God is merciful, QUESTION if you miss the Rapture, will you not give your heart to Jesus? Do you think that should still be an option? Because I do, and God is merciful, so that is why we have Christians during the 70th week. But they are not preaching the gospel, they will be running for their lives brother, most will be killed for not taking the Mark of the Beast, read Revelation 20:4.

I don't usually read Mark, I read Matthew, but that Mark 13:9-10 verse looks like it parallels with the Matt. 24:9:10 verses where Jesus told the Disciples that they would all be killed. You do understand Jesus was telling the Disciples (save John) that they would all be killed right? Matt. 24:4-6 is about 70 AD. Matt. 24:7-14 is about the Church Age, not the 70th week, end times verses 14 sats THEN the end will come. Verses 15-31 are all about the 70th week. Thus we get THREE MENTIONS of False Prophets for a reason. In verse 5 it's about the false messiahs the Pharisees/Jewish leaders would put forth as Political Leaders (they thought the Messiah would be a political leader, not the Sin of God) to try and defeat the Fourth Beast (Rome) fulfilling John 5:43. Verse 11 is about the Church Age false teachers, preachers etc. especially those who would kill the Disciples for blasphemy against their false gods. And Matt. 24:24 is specifically about THE False Prophet and THE Anti-Christ.

God TAKES the Christian Bride to Heaven to marry the Lamb, we are his bride, we completed our mission on this earth. The NEW Christians know they left it too late, now they will have to pay with their lives because they tarried. They will be doing two things, DYING or HIDING, they will not be preaching. Our MISSION is complete brother.

The ones who are left after some of us fall away from the faith you mean?

‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-3‬ ‭
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.​

I think the whole "falling away" misses what is going to happen, I think it's already happening and people do not understand what it is, Europe FELL AWAY a long time ago, now we are doing it in the USA. It's about the culture when it gets to the point that good is called evil, and evil is called good like is happening now in the USA, the Church has failed, we have given over too much ground unto the enemy without a fight. This means the Church is accepting in many cases the evils of the world, going along to get along, some even participating, marrying homosexuals, advocating for abortion, etc. etc. It is like the Jewish High Priests who accepted Antiochus into the temple of God, where he profaned it by sacrificing a pig to Zeus, and his very name claimed he was god manifest.

So, I see the culture and the Church as getting away from the mission of Jesus and thus the Anti-Christ spirit starts taking over, readying the culture for the rise of the Anti-Christ, who is alive now, this is known by me, I saw that vision in 1986. As per 2:Thess. 2, that is about the Church DEPARTING before the DOTL comes and the AC also arises before the DOTL, thus there was no need for the Thessalonians to fear that they were in the DOTL God's Wrath. The same words used in different places don't have to mean the same thing, you have to look at the CONTEXT. In 2 Thes. 2 we see in the 1st verse it's speaking about the GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO Jesus. In Tim. 4:1 it's speaking about the Church and culture giving in to WORLDLY WAYS.

God Bless

 

[CS1]

I have been preaching for over 35 years and specifically called unto End Time Prophecy. I will never call anyone a false teacher unless I think they are really doing it with foreknowledge. We see darkly now. But we also have the holy spirit, when we are given something, we are supposed to KNOW, that we KNOW, that we KNOW, and I know on this brother. I am not just guessing.

The REASON (I am giving you the answer here) is because the MISSION of the Church is finished. Read Matt.24:14, when the Gospel has been taken unto the ends of the world, THEN the End (70th week) will come. We have no mission left. Why was Noah not TAKEN? Because Jesus was yet to be born. Why was Lot not TAKEN? Because Jesus was yet to be born. Why will the Church be TAKEN? Our mission on earth is complete, its judgment time. Read Rev. 14, the Angel PREACHERS THE GOSPEL to the world, and the Two-witnesses are testifying about God and about both his mercies and judgments. We are not needed per se. Now as to WHY there are Christians during the 70th week. Because God is merciful, QUESTION if you miss the Rapture, will you not give your heart to Jesus? Do you think that should still be an option? Because I do, and God is merciful, so that is why we have Christians during the 70th week. But they are not preaching the gospel, they will be running for their lives brother, most will be killed for not taking the Mark of the Beast, read Revelation 20:4.

I don't usually read Mark, I read Matthew, but that Mark 13:9-10 verse looks like it parallels with the Matt. 24:9:10 verses where Jesus told the Disciples that they would all be killed. You do understand Jesus was telling the Disciples (save John) that they would all be killed right? Matt. 24:4-6 is about 70 AD. Matt. 24:7-14 is about the Church Age, not the 70th week, end times verses 14 sats THEN the end will come. Verses 15-31 are all about the 70th week. Thus we get THREE MENTIONS of False Prophets for a reason. In verse 5 it's about the false messiahs the Pharisees/Jewish leaders would put forth as Political Leaders (they thought the Messiah would be a political leader, not the Sin of God) to try and defeat the Fourth Beast (Rome) fulfilling John 5:43. Verse 11 is about the Church Age false teachers, preachers etc. especially those who would kill the Disciples for blasphemy against their false gods. And Matt. 24:24 is specifically about THE False Prophet and THE Anti-Christ.

God TAKES the Christian Bride to Heaven to marry the Lamb, we are his bride, we completed our mission on this earth. The NEW Christians know they left it too late, now they will have to pay with their lives because they tarried. They will be doing two things, DYING or HIDING, they will not be preaching. Our MISSION is complete brother.


I think the whole "falling away" misses what is going to happen, I think it's already happening and people do not understand what it is, Europe FELL AWAY a long time ago, now we are doing it in the USA. It's about the culture when it gets to the point that good is called evil, and evil is called good like is happening now in the USA, the Church has failed, we have given over too much ground unto the enemy without a fight. This means the Church is accepting in many cases the evils of the world, going along to get along, some even participating, marrying homosexuals, advocating for abortion, etc. etc. It is like the Jewish High Priests who accepted Antiochus into the temple of God, where he profaned it by sacrificing a pig to Zeus, and his very name claimed he was god manifest.

So, I see the culture and the Church as getting away from the mission of Jesus and thus the Anti-Christ spirit starts taking over, readying the culture for the rise of the Anti-Christ, who is alive now, this is known by me, I saw that vision in 1986. As per 2:Thess. 2, that is about the Church DEPARTING before the DOTL comes and the AC also arises before the DOTL, thus there was no need for the Thessalonians to fear that they were in the DOTL God's Wrath. The same words used in different places don't have to mean the same thing, you have to look at the CONTEXT. In 2 Thes. 2 we see in the 1st verse it's speaking about the GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO Jesus. In Tim. 4:1 it's speaking about the Church and culture giving in to WORLDLY WAYS.

God Bless

very well said and great insight. I actually felt the HS as I was reading.

 

[Lisamn]

I have been preaching for over 35 years and specifically called unto End Time Prophecy. I will never call anyone a false teacher

I didn’t call you a false teacher...just that what you were talking about was a false teaching.

The REASON (I am giving you the answer here) is because the MISSION of the Church is finished. Read Matt.24:14, when the Gospel has been taken unto the ends of the world, THEN the End (70th week) will come. We have no mission left. Why was Noah not TAKEN? Because Jesus was yet to be born. Why was Lot not TAKEN? Because Jesus was yet to be born. Why will the Church be TAKEN? Our mission on earth is complete, its judgment time. Read Rev. 14, the Angel PREACHERS THE GOSPEL to the world, and the Two-witnesses are testifying about God and about both his mercies and judgments. We are not needed per se. Now as to WHY there are Christians during the 70th week. Because God is merciful, QUESTION if you miss the Rapture, will you not give your heart to Jesus? Do you think that should still be an option? Because I do, and God is merciful, so that is why we have Christians during the 70th week. But they are not preaching the gospel, they will be running for their lives brother, most will be killed for not taking the Mark of the Beast, read Revelation 20:4.

I disagree. We will never be done with the mission of sharing the gospel. Even in Mark 13 we see that we shall go before kings and rulers. It’s not going to be Christians running for their lives..but standing for God and being martyrd for their faith...that’s us. Not newbies.
I am pre-wrath..I don’t think anyone will become Christians in God’s wrath..don’t they all harden their hearts?
I suppose some people might become Christians before that...that’s why we are still sharing the gospel to save some...but I highly doubt there will be many takers.

I don't usually read Mark, I read Matthew, but that Mark 13:9-10 verse looks like it parallels with the Matt. 24:9:10 verses where Jesus told the Disciples that they would all be killed. You do understand Jesus was telling the Disciples (save John) that they would all be killed right? Matt. 24:4-6 is about 70 AD. Matt. 24:7-14 is about the Church Age, not the 70th week, end times verses 14 sats THEN the end will come. Verses 15-31 are all about the 70th week. Thus we get THREE MENTIONS of False Prophets for a reason. In verse 5 it's about the false messiahs the Pharisees/Jewish leaders would put forth as Political Leaders (they thought the Messiah would be a political leader, not the Sin of God) to try and defeat the Fourth Beast (Rome) fulfilling John 5:43. Verse 11 is about the Church Age false teachers, preachers etc. especially those who would kill the Disciples for blasphemy against their false gods. And Matt. 24:24 is specifically about THE False Prophet and THE Anti-Christ.

Yes..they tell the same story about when they asked what are the signs of His coming and the end of the age....so it is about us as well.

The church age ends when the fullness of the gentiles comes in. Then God returns His attention back on His chosen people the Jews. Perhaps that’s really when the new temple gets built? Then we have 7 years from that time until the return of Jesus.

God TAKES the Christian Bride to Heaven to marry the Lamb, we are his bride, we completed our mission on this earth. The NEW Christians know they left it too late, now they will have to pay with their lives because they tarried. They will be doing two things, DYING or HIDING, they will not be preaching. Our MISSION is complete brother.

That doesn’t make sense in light of Revelation 6..

Revelation‬ ‭6:9-11‬ ‭
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

​

Also...I am a sister..my name is Lisa.

I think the whole "falling away" misses what is going to happen, I think it's already happening and people do not understand what it is, Europe FELL AWAY a long time ago, now we are doing it in the USA. It's about the culture when it gets to the point that good is called evil, and evil is called good like is happening now in the USA, the Church has failed, we have given over too much ground unto the enemy without a fight. This means the Church is accepting in many cases the evils of the world, going along to get along, some even participating, marrying homosexuals, advocating for abortion, etc. etc. It is like the Jewish High Priests who accepted Antiochus into the temple of God, where he profaned it by sacrificing a pig to Zeus, and his very name claimed he was god manifest.

So, I see the culture and the Church as getting away from the mission of Jesus and thus the Anti-Christ spirit starts taking over, readying the culture for the rise of the Anti-Christ, who is alive now, this is known by me, I saw that vision in 1986. As per 2:Thess. 2, that is about the Church DEPARTING before the DOTL comes and the AC also arises before the DOTL, thus there was no need for the Thessalonians to fear that they were in the DOTL God's Wrath. The same words used in different places don't have to mean the same thing, you have to look at the CONTEXT. In 2 Thes. 2 we see in the 1st verse it's speaking about the GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO Jesus. In Tim. 4:1 it's speaking about the Church and culture giving in to WORLDLY WAYS.

Sure.....people have been falling away all this time..but there is going to come a time where Christians will fall away and hate each other...

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10‬ ‭
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.​

I really think it has to do with the pre trib rapture. So many people are hoping beyond hope that it is true and I think they are going to really be upset when they are left behind to go through the tribulati that they will hate and betray the ones who didn’t believe in it.

The anti christ spirit has been alive all throughout history...think Cain.
So, in a vision you saw the anti is alive now? He might be...it does seem to be some bad times we are in...but is it the worst time in the history of man? Idk?

Mark‬ ‭13:20‬ ‭
Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
‭‭
‭‭​

The same words used in different places don't have to mean the same thing, you have to look at the CONTEXT.

Eh?

 

[Scribe]

Your reply to THIS POST makes no sense, if you were replying to another post but used this one, that only leads to confusion. So I will GUESS at what you are trying to say, which doesn't match up with the post you replied to.

The Rapture is not a RISING into the clouds, WE DIE, go read 1 Cor. 15, you guys do not understand it tbh. Where it says we are CHANGED, that means WE DIE, and then our spirit men are incorruptible, just like those who are raised INCORRUPTIBLE (without flesh bodies) from the grave. If you read it very keenly, it says that Flesh and Blood CAN NOT enter Heaven !! ess told Mary in John 20, "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father" [to offer the Sacrifice]. Mary, merely touching Jesus would have defiled the Sacrifice, that is how Holy God is. No sin flesh is entering heaven, we are CHANGED in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye we die, and out Spirit Men (which has no stain of sin flesh) will go to be with the Lord, where we get our Glorious bodies.

The Judean Wedding is 7 days, we stay in the Father's mansion for 7 years. The Bride knows not the day nor hour when the father of the groom will send him to get the bride, but when he is sent he blows a Shofar (Last Trump) to awaken the guests. In Rev. 4:1 it states Jesus' voice is as a Trump. The facts are the facts. You not being able to see the facts do not change the facts, sir.

And the Scriptures tell us Jesus lands in Jerusalem, so do you have a beef with the Scriptures? And, OH YEA, Rev. 19 tells us the Bride RETURNS with Jesus on White Horses (which simply means as Conquerors, a white horse stands for a conqueror). The red horse for 42 months of War, the black horse for 42 months of famine, the pale green horse for 42 months of death/sickness. The 5th Seal stands for 42 months of Martyrs. ALL stand for the Actions of the Anti-Christ over the coming 42 months. The 6th Seal tells of God's coming 42 months of Wrath. The timelines parallel, because the Anti-Christ uses this chaos to go forth conquering himself.

Sorry about that. I was commenting on something BenjaminN said.

As to your interpretation of the change, it is a foundational doctrine of Christianity that we shall not all die. Those that are alive will be changed and not die. "We shall not all sleep" means we shall not all die. Those that are asleep in Christ will rise first means those that have died. But we shall not all sleep. Those that are alive when Christ comes will be changed in a moment and not die. Corruptible (flesh that can age, die and rot) will be changed into glorified resurrected body like the resurrected bodies of those who rise from the grave in a glorified body like Christs. Anyone can read 1 Cor 15, and 1 Thess 4.

Mary was already clinging to Jesus when he told her to "stop clinging to me" which is the meaning of the Greek word translated touch.
We know this because Matthew shows two women clinging to his feet. He tells them to go tell his disciples to meet him in Galilee. When we compare with John we are able to understand that one of them left but Mary kept clinging to him and he had to tell her that to stop because he she was going to have a different relationship with Him from now on. He was going to the Father to send the Holy Spirit and He would make His abode with her in her heart. This was what he meant.

It was taught in detail in the book of John already so John is referencing that teaching in concise words from Christ about going to the Father. There were not two ascensions. Both women touched his feet and he had to tell Mary to stop because He would go to the Father and send the Holy Spirit. But that did not happen until the day of Pentecost. The one ascension happened 10 days before Pentecost in front of all the eye witnesses. This too is fundamental doctrine and two ascensions is a made up fantasy based on a bad interpretation of "don't touch me"

Jesus sacrifice was accepted at the cross. He did not have to carry blood into the temple in heaven as it had already been accepted in heaven when it was shed. He was not bleeding out onto the ground when he talked to Mary. He was not carrying some of his blood from the cross in a flask in his pocket to sprinkle in heaven on his quick run to heaven and back before he met with Thomas and said touch me. It should be obvious that this is all made up but people keep spreading it, along with the myth about the gate in the wall called the eye of the needle, and the rope tied around the High Priest ankle, and the armor with no back cover. All made up. None of it happened.

 

[Scribe]

I have been preaching for over 35 years and specifically called unto End Time Prophecy. I will never call anyone a false teacher unless I think they are really doing it with foreknowledge. We see darkly now. But we also have the holy spirit, when we are given something, we are supposed to KNOW, that we KNOW, that we KNOW, and I know on this brother. I am not just guessing.

The REASON (I am giving you the answer here) is because the MISSION of the Church is finished. Read Matt.24:14, when the Gospel has been taken unto the ends of the world, THEN the End (70th week) will come. We have no mission left. Why was Noah not TAKEN? Because Jesus was yet to be born. Why was Lot not TAKEN? Because Jesus was yet to be born. Why will the Church be TAKEN? Our mission on earth is complete, its judgment time. Read Rev. 14, the Angel PREACHERS THE GOSPEL to the world, and the Two-witnesses are testifying about God and about both his mercies and judgments. We are not needed per se. Now as to WHY there are Christians during the 70th week. Because God is merciful, QUESTION if you miss the Rapture, will you not give your heart to Jesus? Do you think that should still be an option? Because I do, and God is merciful, so that is why we have Christians during the 70th week. But they are not preaching the gospel, they will be running for their lives brother, most will be killed for not taking the Mark of the Beast, read Revelation 20:4.

I don't usually read Mark, I read Matthew, but that Mark 13:9-10 verse looks like it parallels with the Matt. 24:9:10 verses where Jesus told the Disciples that they would all be killed. You do understand Jesus was telling the Disciples (save John) that they would all be killed right? Matt. 24:4-6 is about 70 AD. Matt. 24:7-14 is about the Church Age, not the 70th week, end times verses 14 sats THEN the end will come. Verses 15-31 are all about the 70th week. Thus we get THREE MENTIONS of False Prophets for a reason. In verse 5 it's about the false messiahs the Pharisees/Jewish leaders would put forth as Political Leaders (they thought the Messiah would be a political leader, not the Sin of God) to try and defeat the Fourth Beast (Rome) fulfilling John 5:43. Verse 11 is about the Church Age false teachers, preachers etc. especially those who would kill the Disciples for blasphemy against their false gods. And Matt. 24:24 is specifically about THE False Prophet and THE Anti-Christ.

God TAKES the Christian Bride to Heaven to marry the Lamb, we are his bride, we completed our mission on this earth. The NEW Christians know they left it too late, now they will have to pay with their lives because they tarried. They will be doing two things, DYING or HIDING, they will not be preaching. Our MISSION is complete brother.


I think the whole "falling away" misses what is going to happen, I think it's already happening and people do not understand what it is, Europe FELL AWAY a long time ago, now we are doing it in the USA. It's about the culture when it gets to the point that good is called evil, and evil is called good like is happening now in the USA, the Church has failed, we have given over too much ground unto the enemy without a fight. This means the Church is accepting in many cases the evils of the world, going along to get along, some even participating, marrying homosexuals, advocating for abortion, etc. etc. It is like the Jewish High Priests who accepted Antiochus into the temple of God, where he profaned it by sacrificing a pig to Zeus, and his very name claimed he was god manifest.

So, I see the culture and the Church as getting away from the mission of Jesus and thus the Anti-Christ spirit starts taking over, readying the culture for the rise of the Anti-Christ, who is alive now, this is known by me, I saw that vision in 1986. As per 2:Thess. 2, that is about the Church DEPARTING before the DOTL comes and the AC also arises before the DOTL, thus there was no need for the Thessalonians to fear that they were in the DOTL God's Wrath. The same words used in different places don't have to mean the same thing, you have to look at the CONTEXT. In 2 Thes. 2 we see in the 1st verse it's speaking about the GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO Jesus. In Tim. 4:1 it's speaking about the Church and culture giving in to WORLDLY WAYS.

God Bless

I don't like to call people false prophets or false teachers either but not all sleeping but being changed in the twinkling of an eye means the believers that are alive at His coming will not die but receive glorified bodies instantly without dying. They go from corruptible to incorruptible which is talking about the body. Now this is not up for debate so I won't debate it with you. I will however say that because of your stand on this I can't take anything else you say seriously. All your other opinions of scripture is suspect. Twisting this scripture means that you have the boldness to twist any scripture to make it mean something else than what it says.

We all have the same mission still. To Go into all the world to preach the Gospel to every creature. It will not be over until we are raptured. Winning Souls and planting churches is still our mission. If you vacate that mission and just wait for the appearing you will be ashamed at his appearing. If you are not actively engaged in that mission you will suffer loss at the Bema Seat of Christ.

This too is not up for debate, I just felt the need to say something.

We should quit being so passionate about our faulty eschatological theories that might be wrong and get passionate about the Great Commission which is not over till it's over.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Where does the Bible says that the spirit man dwells in heaven? I have not seen that. I have however noticed that man sleeps in the dust of the ground over and over again. And that the dead will be resurrected before the living when Jesus comes in the rapture. He’s just getting the bodies of people then?

Which also makes me wonder why John when he was in heaven with God didn’t see people’s spirits..in fact no one was in heaven with him until after the rapture when he saw a multitude.

Soul sleep isn't a biblical doctrine.
Biblically, a person “sleeping” in relation to death doesn't indicate literal sleep. Sleeping is a way of describing death because a dead body appears to be asleep, lying down. Your body is just an outer husk. When it dies your spirit still lives with Jesus.
See Philipians 1: 21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 Eph 3:14-16

Do you realise he has put HIS Spirit in you? You have a new Spirit which doesn't die just because your body does. Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God’s children.

John didn't see all things in heaven. He saw what he was shown and he saw visions. He did see a vision of 24 elders.
He saw the martyrs Rev 6:9 right under the alter. These are souls of people who were slain for their witness. There may be millions
if you count them for the last 2000 years.

 

[CS1]

Soul sleep isn't a biblical doctrine.
Biblically, a person “sleeping” in relation to death doesn't indicate literal sleep. Sleeping is a way of describing death because a dead body appears to be asleep, lying down. Your body is just an outer husk. When it dies your spirit still lives with Jesus.
See Philipians 1: 21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 Eph 3:14-16

Do you realise he has put HIS Spirit in you? You have a new Spirit which doesn't die just because your body does. Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God’s children.

John didn't see all things in heaven. He saw what he was shown and he saw visions. He did see a vision of 24 elders.
He saw the martyrs Rev 6:9 right under the alter. These are souls of people who were slain for their witness. There may be millions
if you count them for the last 2000 years.

interesting. "Soul Sleep," I think can be explained if we used what Jesus said in context to Lazerus being physically dead. The disciples thought Lazerus was literally sleeping which should not be seen as unconsciousness. Loss of consciousness should not be confused with the notion of the psychoanalytic unconscious, cognitive processes that take place outside awareness (e.g., implicit cognition), and with altered states of consciousness such as sleep. just when many are in a coma depending on the seriousness of it, they can hear and process just not able to physically respond.

Those who hold to the term "Soul Sleep" assumed there is no consciousness. That is interjected but must be applied from what is a physical sleep from the position of cognitive unconsciousness. That is not the case with a Christian who has died Biblically.
If you apply a non-biblical explanation and use a scientific theory you come up with " Soul Sleep" sounds good but it is not biblical and it limits God so man can explain what the Bible is silent on.

We know from the word of God there is life after death. And God is not limited from taking a person(s) before they physically die.

Enoch and Elijah. The explanation is supernatural beyond human understanding.

 

[Lisamn]

Soul sleep isn't a biblical doctrine.
Biblically, a person “sleeping” in relation to death doesn't indicate literal sleep. Sleeping is a way of describing death because a dead body appears to be asleep, lying down. Your body is just an outer husk. When it dies your spirit still lives with Jesus.
See Philipians 1: 21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 Eph 3:14-16

Do you realise he has put HIS Spirit in you? You have a new Spirit which doesn't die just because your body does. Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God’s children.

John didn't see all things in heaven. He saw what he was shown and he saw visions. He did see a vision of 24 elders.
He saw the martyrs Rev 6:9 right under the alter. These are souls of people who were slain for their witness. There may be millions
if you count them for the last 2000 years.

Sure I’ve heard that...but to me it does make sense that we are all actually sleeping in the dust of the earth and the dead in Christ rise first. If its just bodies..is that the dead in Christ actual rising if their souls are already in heaven?

Is that supposed to explain Romans 8:16? I don’t think what you said has anything to do with the verse you quoted honestly.

He did see a vision but when he got there there wasn’t much going on near the throne...but later after the rapture..there was a multitude...I think that is significant.

I thought that the martyrs under the alter were just from the tribulation. It seemed to me to be the case since they were talking about them in the end times in the book of Revelation.

Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
‭‭​

All the rest of the dead in Christ are raptured before those who are alive..so I feel that there is a division of the slain.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Sure I’ve heard that...but to me it does make sense that we are all actually sleeping in the dust of the earth and the dead in Christ rise first. If its just bodies..is that the dead in Christ actual rising if their souls are already in heaven?

Is that supposed to explain Romans 8:16? I don’t think what you said has anything to do with the verse you quoted honestly.

He did see a vision but when he got there there wasn’t much going on near the throne...but later after the rapture..there was a multitude...I think that is significant.

I thought that the martyrs under the alter were just from the tribulation. It seemed to me to be the case since they were talking about them in the end times in the book of Revelation.

Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
‭‭​

All the rest of the dead in Christ are raptured before those who are alive..so I feel that there is a division of the slain.

Did you read all the verses I cited? Philipians 1: 21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 Eph 3:14-16 ?


The martyrs are from the whole history of the church. (Rev 6:9) They are a different group from the great multitude in white robes.
(Rev 7:9) The Book of Acts records believers being killed for Jesus right from the beginning. History records many more over the centuries.

 

[Lisamn]

Did you read all the verses I cited? Philipians 1: 21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 Eph 3:14-16 ?


The martyrs are from the whole history of the church. (Rev 6:9) They are a different group from the great multitude in white robes.
(Rev 7:9) The Book of Acts records believers being killed for Jesus right from the beginning. History records many more over the centuries.

Eventually we will all be with Christ...it doesn’t mean that he thought his spirit was going to God.

Philippians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better.
​

If you are asleep in the ground you are still absent from the Lord aren’t you?

‭‭
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭
Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
​

Did you really mean these verses? They don’t seem to have anything to do with what we are talking about.

Ephesians‬ ‭3:14-16‬ ‭
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man.​

‭‭

The martyrs don’t seem to be from the whole of church history..these are beheaded because of their testimony and those who did not worship the beast or his image or received the mark.

Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
​

All the raptured saints are from history and the ones still alive in the tribulation period.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

There is no time specification on this group of martyrs.
They are told to wait until the rest come in -from the Great Tribulation.

There have been mass-beheadings of Christians in the Middle East for 1400 years.

 

[Lisamn]

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

There is no time specification on this group of martyrs.
They are told to wait until the rest come in -from the Great Tribulation.

These aren’t the same martyrs who were slain because of their testimony and because of the word of God?

Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
‭‭​

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

These aren’t the same martyrs who were slain because of their testimony and because of the word of God?

​

Yes they have been slain for that but it has been happening for a long time. The Middle East was once majority Christian.
Don't forget things John saw were in HIS future but not everything in the Revelation is still in OUR future. We are living nearly 2000 years later.

 

[Hevosmies]

Textbook pre-trib stuff here. I have heard the "Revelation 4:1" is the rapture lie so many times. There is NOTHING about a resurrection in revelation 4:1, and there is NOTHING about the church in there either. Its about JOHN the person, being shown things to come, one person, THATS IT.

You just gotta add to the text to shove the rapture somewhere before the second coming, even though the Bible itself NEVER mentions two separate comings. You can try to confuse people into believing it does by saying "one is FOR the church another one is WITH the church" and all that. "one has wrath, another one doesnt" well. THESE are no contradictions or separate comings, its just as it says in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, it is WRATH to the unbelievers, and REST to the believers, same coming, same time, different perspective based on which side you are on!