TONGUES false teaching.
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So what you wrote is that the speaking in tongues serves as a sign to the unbeliever. But there exist other signs for the unbeliever to believe in. An unbeliever might believe in the miracles of St. Anthony of Padua. In fact many do. St. Anthony performed miracles which converted some of the so-called heretics of his time. I consider the miracles of St. Anthony to be false. So just as there were true miracles (Bible) and false miracles (St. Anthony) there can also be True speaking in tongues and False speaking in tongues.
Hillsong Church says this in their "What We Believe" section:
"We believe that in order to live the holy and fruitful lives that God intends for us, we need to be baptised in water and be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables us to use spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues."
https://hillsong.com/what-we-believe/
QUESTION:
If I am an unbeliever should I place trust in the sign of speaking in tongues from the Hillsong Church?
What is your opinion of Hillsong Church?
Best regards,
Neb
Hillsong Church says this in their "What We Believe" section:
"We believe that in order to live the holy and fruitful lives that God intends for us, we need to be baptised in water and be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables us to use spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues."
https://hillsong.com/what-we-believe/
QUESTION:
If I am an unbeliever should I place trust in the sign of speaking in tongues from the Hillsong Church?
What is your opinion of Hillsong Church?
Best regards,
Neb
We can agree to disagree on this as I am well aware of the fact that not every Christian interprets the scriptures on these things the same way.
Yes Paul made it clear that when we operate in the gifts of the Spirit in Love we are using a gift that will remain after the others are no longer needed. When that which is perfect is come. Which is what theologians call the eschaton. That state of perfection we will achieve post resurrection. Now that Paul specifically applies this exercise of Love in the context of the spiritual gifts would require the exercising of spiritual gifts being exercised in Love. ...hhmmmm think about it.
Yes Paul made it clear that when we operate in the gifts of the Spirit in Love we are using a gift that will remain after the others are no longer needed. When that which is perfect is come. Which is what theologians call the eschaton. That state of perfection we will achieve post resurrection. Now that Paul specifically applies this exercise of Love in the context of the spiritual gifts would require the exercising of spiritual gifts being exercised in Love. ...hhmmmm think about it.
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S
I think that many people do not accurately quote what Paul said by not using his complete thought and sentence and therefore they do not properly comprehend what Paul meant when he said "tongues are for a sign, not to those believing, but to the unbelieving;"
1 Cor 12:21-22
“By other tongues,
and by other lips,
I will speak to this people,
and not even thus will they hear Me,
says the Lord.”
22So then, tongues are for a sign, not to those believing, but to the unbelieving; but prophecy is not to the unbelieving, but to the believing.
To understand Paul's intent when he says "tongues are for a sign, not to those believing, but to the unbelieving" one should be careful to only understood in context of the prophecy of Isaiah 28 and not make up some strange application Paul never intended.
Isaiah 28:
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. (This is the judgment of the unbeliever who saw the manifestation of tongues and did not believe it)
Compare with such passages as John 12
36 When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.
As you can grasp by reading both of these quotes from Isaiah that they are talking about the same thing, the fact that He did these supernatural signs and yet they still did not believe would result in their being driving further into darkness.
The gift of tongues was given to the church for more reasons than as a sign to the unbeliever but Paul is quoting the prophecy of Isaiah which specifically said that "yet they would not hear" (unbeliever)
The prophesy made it clear that this supernatural manifestation would not convince them, but it would be another nail in the coffin of the unbeliever, making him so that he had no excuse for the blindness and hardness of heart that he would be given over to as a result of rejecting these supernatural signs.
IT WAS A SIGN to the Unbeliever in the sense that Isaiah said
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
You see the gift of tongues was not given to convince an unbeliever to be saved. It was a supernatural manifestation and YET THEY WOULD NOT HEAR = (UNBELIEVER). It was a sign to drive them further into darkness because of their unbelief.
Unbelievers will not be saved because they hear you speak in tongues. You misunderstood. But many do so. It is one of the most misunderstood statements of Paul and most misinterpreted.
The sign you are looking for that will cause an unbeliever to fall down at your knees and declare that God is in you of a truth and repent and be saved is the gift of Prophecy. You want to find a church that is operating in a gift of prophecy whereby an unbeliever can come visit and hear a word of prophecy that will expose the secrets of his heart and cause him to fall on his face in repentance.
So in the way that many think that Paul meant that tongues are sign for unbelievers and prophecy was for believers, they are thinking that tongues will make an unbeliever a believer but that is not what Paul is saying. He is saying that tongues are a sign for unbelievers to heap judgment upon them for their unbelief in the light of such a glorious manifestation of having done this great thing called speaking in tongues for the church and yet they still will not believe though they see it. But prophecy is a sign for the believers or (those that WILL BELIEVE) when they hear the prophetic word that convicts their hear and they repent.
1 Cor 12:21-22
“By other tongues,
and by other lips,
I will speak to this people,
and not even thus will they hear Me,
says the Lord.”
22So then, tongues are for a sign, not to those believing, but to the unbelieving; but prophecy is not to the unbelieving, but to the believing.
To understand Paul's intent when he says "tongues are for a sign, not to those believing, but to the unbelieving" one should be careful to only understood in context of the prophecy of Isaiah 28 and not make up some strange application Paul never intended.
Isaiah 28:
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. (This is the judgment of the unbeliever who saw the manifestation of tongues and did not believe it)
Compare with such passages as John 12
36 When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.
As you can grasp by reading both of these quotes from Isaiah that they are talking about the same thing, the fact that He did these supernatural signs and yet they still did not believe would result in their being driving further into darkness.
The gift of tongues was given to the church for more reasons than as a sign to the unbeliever but Paul is quoting the prophecy of Isaiah which specifically said that "yet they would not hear" (unbeliever)
The prophesy made it clear that this supernatural manifestation would not convince them, but it would be another nail in the coffin of the unbeliever, making him so that he had no excuse for the blindness and hardness of heart that he would be given over to as a result of rejecting these supernatural signs.
IT WAS A SIGN to the Unbeliever in the sense that Isaiah said
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
You see the gift of tongues was not given to convince an unbeliever to be saved. It was a supernatural manifestation and YET THEY WOULD NOT HEAR = (UNBELIEVER). It was a sign to drive them further into darkness because of their unbelief.
Unbelievers will not be saved because they hear you speak in tongues. You misunderstood. But many do so. It is one of the most misunderstood statements of Paul and most misinterpreted.
The sign you are looking for that will cause an unbeliever to fall down at your knees and declare that God is in you of a truth and repent and be saved is the gift of Prophecy. You want to find a church that is operating in a gift of prophecy whereby an unbeliever can come visit and hear a word of prophecy that will expose the secrets of his heart and cause him to fall on his face in repentance.
So in the way that many think that Paul meant that tongues are sign for unbelievers and prophecy was for believers, they are thinking that tongues will make an unbeliever a believer but that is not what Paul is saying. He is saying that tongues are a sign for unbelievers to heap judgment upon them for their unbelief in the light of such a glorious manifestation of having done this great thing called speaking in tongues for the church and yet they still will not believe though they see it. But prophecy is a sign for the believers or (those that WILL BELIEVE) when they hear the prophetic word that convicts their hear and they repent.
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I don't know Hillsong other than the songs I have heard. I do not follow those who are worship leaders. The context of signs and wonders is what Jesus said in Mark 16 and what we read in the use of them in the book of Acts and the instruction given about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1cor 12 through 14. and other letters. they are for 1. to show God is alive and not dead. A witness to the resurrected Lord. 2. they confirm what has been said is from God. IF you are an unbeliever no you should put your trust in the Living God and come to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't worship the gifts of the Holy Spirit. When I have spoken in tongues it is privately, in a message with interpretation, or in overflow to God. The speaking must line up with the written word of God.
and the end result is the message must comfort, edify, exhort, and uplift.
and the end result is the message must comfort, edify, exhort, and uplift.
I am a believer of the risen Lord Jesus Christ!
But I think we disagree on Mark 16:17-18.
Mark 16:17-18 was to be taken both literally and spiritually in the 1st century AD, but today I believe it is to be taken spiritually only.
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Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
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I also do what is spoken in Mark 16:17-18, I just don't do them literally. I DO THEM SPIRITUALLY.
1) I speak in new tongues I no longer speak God's name in vain like I once did.
2) I pick up serpents. I now pick up the Councils of the Roman Church like the First Council of the Vatican and confessions like the Westminster Confession of Faith and I handle them without fear. I handle them with understanding and discernment now and they do not poison me.
3) I have drank the poison of the Roman Church's Eucharist: the poisoned bread and wine. I have taken of the poisoned bread and juice of the PCUSA, and yet I am not spiritually dead, but have received spiritual life.
4) as for casting out demons I am trying to for example on my son. But I do this by reading and studying and praying and living the Word of God with him.
I think believers should lay hands and pray over the spiritually sick so that they may be healed from their sins.
Here is a preacher who took Mark 16:17-18 literally and he literally died from it.
https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...ren-pond-test-of-faith-old-yeller-rattlesnake
Unbelievers read this and this pushes them from the Bible.
But I think we disagree on Mark 16:17-18.
Mark 16:17-18 was to be taken both literally and spiritually in the 1st century AD, but today I believe it is to be taken spiritually only.
------------------
Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
--------------------
I also do what is spoken in Mark 16:17-18, I just don't do them literally. I DO THEM SPIRITUALLY.
1) I speak in new tongues I no longer speak God's name in vain like I once did.
2) I pick up serpents. I now pick up the Councils of the Roman Church like the First Council of the Vatican and confessions like the Westminster Confession of Faith and I handle them without fear. I handle them with understanding and discernment now and they do not poison me.
3) I have drank the poison of the Roman Church's Eucharist: the poisoned bread and wine. I have taken of the poisoned bread and juice of the PCUSA, and yet I am not spiritually dead, but have received spiritual life.
4) as for casting out demons I am trying to for example on my son. But I do this by reading and studying and praying and living the Word of God with him.
I think believers should lay hands and pray over the spiritually sick so that they may be healed from their sins.
Here is a preacher who took Mark 16:17-18 literally and he literally died from it.
https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...ren-pond-test-of-faith-old-yeller-rattlesnake
Unbelievers read this and this pushes them from the Bible.
S
I think that based on your position on the subject at this time you would probably appreciate the scholarly exegesis presented by Gordon Fee in this book below It's not cheap but I think you would not regret the expense and the time reading it.
The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Revised Edition (The New International Commentary on the New Testament)
https://www.amazon.com/Epistle-Cori...02871364/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=
So though I know you want me to "walk me through" my explanation I don't think it is going to satisfy your scriptural questions. Those answers will be found in this book.
I can give you my testimony. I was 18, in jail, never had any background in the bible or church knowledge, and I was born again and studying the bible, Specifically when I read the book of Acts I believed what I was reading and asked for the power of the Holy Spirit to be a witness and to speak in tongues and I was filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues. The receiving was as simple as believing, asking and receiving. Now when you say "I need more than you personal experience, and the exegesis of the scriptures on it," I will direct you to the book above.
The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Revised Edition (The New International Commentary on the New Testament)
https://www.amazon.com/Epistle-Cori...02871364/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=
So though I know you want me to "walk me through" my explanation I don't think it is going to satisfy your scriptural questions. Those answers will be found in this book.
I can give you my testimony. I was 18, in jail, never had any background in the bible or church knowledge, and I was born again and studying the bible, Specifically when I read the book of Acts I believed what I was reading and asked for the power of the Holy Spirit to be a witness and to speak in tongues and I was filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues. The receiving was as simple as believing, asking and receiving. Now when you say "I need more than you personal experience, and the exegesis of the scriptures on it," I will direct you to the book above.
you do them "spiritually" ?
1. you do the work of the Lord Spiritually? LOL Ok, I guess what Jesus said to do was only spiritually? Preaching the gospel, feeding the hungry, praying for the sick were not literal things to do? Jesus said GO and Preach the Good News Wow I did not know we could stay home and do that "spiritually" ? Can you show where the word says that? Because to be spiritual also means maturity and obedience.
2. You pick up serpents? I think you have an issue with pride my friend I see a lot of " I" in your numerology you provided. Not much Bible to back it up. Also a lot of allerogzing.
3. I do not know what you have been drinking but I am glad you have stopped... tonight.
4. reading the word of God cast out demons? interesting demonology you speak of have an issue with what Jesus said about " These types come out only with fasting and prayer?
And pray over the Spiritually sick huh? I guess James chapter 5:14-15
is not literal?
"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Guess you know better
1. you do the work of the Lord Spiritually? LOL Ok, I guess what Jesus said to do was only spiritually? Preaching the gospel, feeding the hungry, praying for the sick were not literal things to do? Jesus said GO and Preach the Good News Wow I did not know we could stay home and do that "spiritually" ? Can you show where the word says that? Because to be spiritual also means maturity and obedience.
2. You pick up serpents? I think you have an issue with pride my friend I see a lot of " I" in your numerology you provided. Not much Bible to back it up. Also a lot of allerogzing.
3. I do not know what you have been drinking but I am glad you have stopped... tonight.
4. reading the word of God cast out demons? interesting demonology you speak of have an issue with what Jesus said about " These types come out only with fasting and prayer?
And pray over the Spiritually sick huh? I guess James chapter 5:14-15
is not literal?
"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Guess you know better
S
This previous post might help with that. I can't pinpoint the day I was born again. I can describe the progressive revelation. It was in March of 1981.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...nd-proselytes-only.195735/page-4#post-4413672
In addition to that post I can add that over the next few weeks I was able to read various Gospel Tracts that explained being born again with scriptures and prayers to pray that I would pray and eventually I realized I was born again and that it started on the days mentioned in the post above. I think you will find my theology in that post.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...nd-proselytes-only.195735/page-4#post-4413672
In addition to that post I can add that over the next few weeks I was able to read various Gospel Tracts that explained being born again with scriptures and prayers to pray that I would pray and eventually I realized I was born again and that it started on the days mentioned in the post above. I think you will find my theology in that post.
S
From my sins. And the consequences of sins, eternal damnation. Saved from lying. (see testimony in previous post) Changed from being addicted to the flesh and sin to being addicted to Holiness and righteousness. Saved from judgment and wrath of God upon sin. Translated from the kingdom of darkness and satan to the kingdom of light and His dear Son Jesus Christ.
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you do not need to get a full experience of speaking in tongues. You are saved and placed your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?
IF so ask Jesus to empower you with the Holy Spirit as HE did on that day found in Acts 2. Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit as John chapter one says. By faith receive from the Lord Don't seek a gift seek more of Jesus.
IF so ask Jesus to empower you with the Holy Spirit as HE did on that day found in Acts 2. Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit as John chapter one says. By faith receive from the Lord Don't seek a gift seek more of Jesus.
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S
If you read the link I posted I described how one of the first things that the Spirit convicted me of was that of being a liar. This would be an example of how I was shown to be a sinner. I did not think of myself as a bad person before. Suddenly I had a revelation of what a liar I was and how I needed to repent and swear off lying forever if I were to be considered sincere before a holy God. It was the beginning of the light penetrating the darkness of my soul. Jesus could save me from being a liar was one of my first revelations about what Jesus Saves must mean.
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