Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[presidente]

awelight,

Can you show us one example of non-revelatory (genuine) prophecy?

 

[CS1]

My support comes from understanding the Greek word "προφητεια", in it's various forms, throughout Scripture and how it is used. While this word sometimes is used looking back to a prediction of future events, it is primarily used in the sense of "speaking forth" the message of God. This I have explained in earlier posts. Christ used it in reference to an Old Testament prophecy, that He was presently speaking of:

Mat 13:14 And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive:

However, Christ was not giving a new prophecy here. Same as Peter in Acts 2:17, who was speaking forth the prophecy of Joel but was not himself predicting a future event.

Let's look at how Paul used the word, in other Epistles, to see if we can get a better understanding of how he intended the word to be understood:

1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which led the way to thee, that by them thou mayest war the good warfare; Paul was not talking about some Divinely inspired revelation here but the general type of things said by others in various churches that led to Timothy being considered for a higher position. Albert Barnes has this observation: "...It is, that Paul was committing to him an important trust, and one that required great wisdom and fidelity; and that in doing it he was acting in conformity with the hopes which had been cherished respecting Timothy, and with certain expressed anticipations about his influence in the church. From early life the hope had been entertained that he would be a man to whom important trusts might be committed."

1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. The gift, was the gift of the ministry mentioned back in 1 Tim. 1:18 and here by the laying on of hands, a common tradition. Again Albert Barnes made these observations:
(1) It was the gift of God; 2Ti_1:6. He was to be recognized as its source; and it was not therefore conferred merely by human hands. The call to the ministry, the qualifications for the office, and the whole arrangement by which one is endowed for the work, are primarily to be traced to him as the source.
(2) It was given to Timothy in accordance with certain observations which had existed in regard to him - the expectations of those who had observed his qualifications for such an office, and who had expressed the hope that he would one day be permitted to serve the Lord in it.
(3) It was sanctioned by the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. The call of God to the work thus recognized by the church, and the approbation of the Presbytery expressed by setting him apart to the office, should be regarded by Timothy as a part of the “gift” or “benefit” which had been conferred on him, and which he was not to neglect.

The Greek word ""προφητεια" was used twice by Peter, in the defense of the origins of Old Testament prophecies:

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit. So once again this particular Greek word is not used in the predictive sense by Peter; rather he was writing about the Divine inspiration of the Old Testament Prophets. The OT prophets did not speak from their own ideas but that all of what they said and warned about was from God, being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

We begin to see the pattern emerging now. A pattern where either the user is speaking of a predictive event from the Old Testament or ones ministerial gift to be able "to speak forth" the Word and edify the listener. But let's not stop here - let's see how it was further used in the book of Revelation:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. This is not speaking of ones ability to receive direct revelation from God or predict future events. It is obviously referring to the blessing one will receive in reading this Prophecy, (this epistle, the words written down). While John, the author, certainly had a vision directly from Jesus Christ, the Greek word once again is being used retrospectively. The same goes for Rev. 22:7, 10, 18 and 19.

Rev 10:11 And they say unto me, Thou must prophesy again over many peoples and nations and tongues and kings. The meaning here is that John must go forth and proclaim God's message over people and nations and various languages and kings. Whether this was to be understood as personally speaking or through the written message, is a discussion for another time and thread.

Rev 11:3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Again, this is not saying they are going to be giving predictive revelations from God but will be proclaiming the Truth of God for three and a half years, (also see Rev. 11:6). Barnes made these comments on the text: "And they shall prophesy; that is, "that they may prophesy"; which is supported by the Arabic and Ethiopic versions, the former rendering the words, "I will give to my two witnesses to prophesy", and the latter, "I will give in command to my two witnesses that they may prophesy"; the sense is, that Christ will give to them a mission and commission, sufficient authority, all needful gifts and grace, courage and presence of mind to preach his Gospel, to hold forth his word, and bear a testimony for him during the whole time of the apostasy,"

So as we see, this Greek word, that Paul used in the 1 Corinthian letter, almost always carries the meaning of ones ability to proclaim the Word of God. When not being used in that way, it is always connected to a retrospective look at OT prophecies. The word is not used when discussing a New Testament ability or gift. Therefore, it would be ludicrous to think that Paul is using this word in an entirely different way than he had used it in other epistles or in the way it was commonly used by other writers. If they were inspired to use this word, by the Holy Spirit, that self same Spirit would not employ it's use differently in that one epistle.

There are other Greek words translated - prophecy - but these were not used in the Corinthian letter. So the proof of it being used the way you want it to be, is then in your court.[/QUOTE

more examples of Greek violations of one trying to change the context of the whole chapter , sentence, verse , and book. You would not know the Greek if it hit you on the head. Are you a Greek scholar? I willing to bet you are not. One class in Bible school Hermeneutics 101 doesn't do it sir

 

[Jackson123]

It means that the "Prophecy" as written in the Word of God is what needs to be taught and preached.

Prophets were foundational to the church (Ephesisans 2:20).

The prophet proclaimed a message from the Lord to the early believers. Sometimes a prophet’s message was revelatory (new revelation and truth from God) and sometimes a prophet’s message was predictive.

The key to understanding is that The early Christians did not have the complete Bible. Some early Christians did not have access to any of the books of the New Testament. The New Testament prophets “filled the gap” by proclaiming God’s message to the people who would not have access to it otherwise. The last book of the New Testament (Revelation) was not completed until late in the first century. So, the Lord sent prophets to proclaim God’s Word to His people.

Once the Bible was completed, there is now NO NEED for a prophet today. The need today is for people who can TEACH what God has already said in HIs Bible.

So you believe no more need prophecy today because we able to read all prophecy in the Bible, am I correct?

I am from Indonesia, Muslim country, I listen a lot of testimony from YouTube, how some Muslim convert to Christian because sign and miracle and prophecy.

Do you believe all they testimonies are lie? Because no more sign and prophecies

 

[CS1]

So you believe no more need prophecy today because we able to read all prophecy in the Bible, am I correct?

I am from Indonesia, Muslim country, I listen a lot of testimony from YouTube, how some Muslim convert to Christian because sign and miracle and prophecy.

Do you believe all they testimonies are lie? Because no more sign and prophecies

This is the misunderstanding of a prophet over the gift of prophesying which one doing so doesn't make them a prophet. The gift of prophecy to forth tell is not adding to the authoritative word of God, that is fully complete. A word of prophecy to a person is for the purpose of edification, exhortation, and comfort. The gift is a method of serving the Body of Christ (the church) now that Christ has been resurrected. When one is used in the gift of prophesying what is said is not a new revelation of the word of God but it is conformation to the one hearing. God has already told the person. It must line up with the written word of God Gen to REV None of what is said is to replace the written word of God. And the very word of God can comfort edify and exhort which should be happening as one studied the word of God. When a person led by the Holy Spirit speak a word of prophecy to a person it is to do those thing 1. line up with what is already written in the Bible 2. comfort 3. exhort. 4. build up 5. confirm . IF it don't do these things IT IS TO BE REJECTED!!!! very simple huh?

 

[presidente]

This is the misunderstanding of a prophet over the gift of prophesying which one doing so doesn't make them a prophet. The gift of prophecy to forth tell is not adding to the authoritative word of God, that is fully complete. A word of prophecy to a person is for the purpose of edification, exhortation, and comfort. The gift is a method of serving the Body of Christ (the church) now that Christ has been resurrected. When one is used in the gift of prophesying what is said is not a new revelation of the word of God but it is conformation to the one hearing. God has already told the person.

I have heard the idea that it must be confirmation from people in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. I don't think I've heard it from the pulpit. I do not see how that lines up with scripture. Usually they say that about callings, plans, etc. There are plenty of examples in scripture where it is extremely unlikely that God had already told the person beforehand, and no reason to put that restriction on prophecy. The Lord may do as He wills, but this topic might be better in it's own thread...whether other posters would quickly take the thread off topic.

 

[presidente]

So you believe no more need prophecy today because we able to read all prophecy in the Bible, am I correct?

I am from Indonesia, Muslim country, I listen a lot of testimony from YouTube, how some Muslim convert to Christian because sign and miracle and prophecy.

Do you believe all they testimonies are lie? Because no more sign and prophecies

Syalom saudara,

Do you hear the testimonies first-hand or are they posted online in Indonesian (or English), too? If so, I would like to see some of them.

I have heard a lot about dreams opening Muslim's hearts up to the Gospel and I heard a first-hand testimony from a general in Indonesia who had an experience like this. Recently, I heard a testimony from a Bangladeshi church planter that mentioned how some of those who had converted had dreams of Christ before their conversion.

 

[Jackson123]

Syalom saudara,

Do you hear the testimonies first-hand or are they posted online in Indonesian (or English), too? If so, I would like to see some of them.

I have heard a lot about dreams opening Muslim's hearts up to the Gospel and I heard a first-hand testimony from a general in Indonesia who had an experience like this. Recently, I heard a testimony from a Bangladeshi church planter that mentioned how some of those who had converted had dreams of Christ before their conversion.

Syalom

Every day on youtube pastor Yusuf manubulu broadcast testimonies Muslim convert.most of the time when Indonesian Muslim convert it is because visions or dream, they are suffer persecution, disown by their family.
The testimonies is in Indonesian. I enjoy listen their testimony.

One of the testimony I listen about a month ago involve prophecy.

This is the story.
A man work for oil mine in the jungle of rio Sumatra.
He was a drinker and free sex doer.
One day he think about repent, go to jungle to pray.
He meet a person that live alone in a simple house in that jungle.
He asked if he can pray at his house. That man let him use his house.
After pray for several time, that man said: if you want happy you must change the way you pray. You pray to Allah that is not real god, pray to Jesus it will make you different.

He admire that man because he have experience with him
One day he and that man walk to the man house, they saw a thief try to steal a rice. He want to catch the thief, but that man stop him and ask him to hide. Don't let the thief know that we know, we have to love him, not make him shame.

That make him admire that man.

So he try to do what that man ask him, pray to Jesus.
He saw a light, come to his room than the light turn to a cross.
He decide to accept Jesus. He told his wife and ask his wife to go to church together.
His wife angry and treathen to divorce him if he go to church.

So he told to that man what happen, that man prophecied, if you not go to church, in a year you life will jeopardize.

That man move and he no longer have communication

And it was right. He steal a man wife, back to drink and lose his happiness. Free sex and drink not make him happy but he did it.

On his birthday his wife ask him to stay home, she cook for him to celebrate his birthday.
He didn't care and went to his girlfriend. The wife craved and pray in a Muslim way from 3 pm to 12 pm.

A man with white rob come and say: if you want save, follow your husband,

Follow what? Drink and free sex?

That man said it 3x than she remember one time her husband ask her to follow Jesus.

When her husband come, she ask if he can go to church together.
He said no, his live was bad and drinker and free sex doer not suppose to go to church.
He wonder why, also he never go to church.

While they talk, a Christian friend come, ask if she call her. She wasn't but the friend accept a call from her.

The friend say ok, and say goodby. She remember the friend is christian so before the friend left she ask. Wait, can I go to church with you? The friend say, my church is in Batak, the local language that she don't understand but if you want your neighbor church is in Indonesian and you can go with her.
She went with her and her husband, when people sing, she cry and fell happy, she ask to be baptize on the spot.

Now he is a pastor, give back his girls friend to her husband.

 

[awelight]

That usage is clearly revelatory.


The KJV is awkward here. The NASB is much clearer: "according to the prophecies concerning you". Those would be revelatory in nature.


Again, revelatory, not mere preaching.


Peter's use is clearly revelatory in nature.


Again, we disagree. Almost all of Revelation is foretelling then-future events. All of it is revelatory... as the English name implies.


Revelatory. Clearly.


Revelatory, clearly.


Frankly, you have not made your case at all. Not even close.


This was your post responding to my assertion that "I don't see any support for the non-revelatory kind of prophecy...." I think you responded to a claim I didn't make. I still hold that preaching is not prophesying.

It's my view that people who claim that prophecy has ceased, but then call preaching "prophesying", are being two-faced. It can't be both.

You and presidente continue your objections while ignoring good solid word study. No real surprise though. Most who have preconceived ideas are guilty of that. I prefer to let the word study speak to me as to the truth of any matter. Without good solid word study, even the translators would not know how to translate a Greek word into any other language. It is how they and any student of Scripture arrive at a true meaning.

As I said before, there are other Greek words that mean a direct revelation or predictive nature but they were not used in the epistle to the Corinthian church. While the word under study can mean a future event being foretold, it was always used retrospectively in the NT, looking back at an OT prophecy. It was not employed in a predictive present reality, except perhaps in the Corinthian letter but if it was being used in this manner, it would be the only place in the NT where it was. Therefore I reject this type of interpretation unless one can show, within the context, that it is to be understood in this way.

The rejection of how this word was to be understood in the letter to Timothy and how it was used in Revelation, which was clearly defined, shows just how little those opposed to the possibility of them being wrong, are. Give me solid evidence of this word being used in a direct revelatory sense and I will have to rethink my position.

I will add this for what good it will do, since you show know real interest. Let's break down the compound word "προφητεια" to it's roots. This word is made up of "πρό", (Which means: "Fore, In front or Prior") and "φημί", (Which means: "Speak or Say" - what is on ones mind). Therefore, this compound Greek word literally means: "To speak afore" or "to speak of prior things". In both cases it means to speak of things either previously thought or to speak of things which came before in time, importance or category.

This is the misunderstanding of a prophet over the gift of prophesying which one doing so doesn't make them a prophet. The gift of prophecy to forth tell is not adding to the authoritative word of God, that is fully complete. A word of prophecy to a person is for the purpose of edification, exhortation, and comfort. The gift is a method of serving the Body of Christ (the church) now that Christ has been resurrected. When one is used in the gift of prophesying what is said is not a new revelation of the word of God but it is conformation to the one hearing. God has already told the person. It must line up with the written word of God Gen to REV None of what is said is to replace the written word of God. And the very word of God can comfort edify and exhort which should be happening as one studied the word of God. When a person led by the Holy Spirit speak a word of prophecy to a person it is to do those thing 1. line up with what is already written in the Bible 2. comfort 3. exhort. 4. build up 5. confirm . IF it don't do these things IT IS TO BE REJECTED!!!! very simple huh?

I can agree with most of what you said here.

The point of the word study was not to take away from the aid of the Holy Spirit in every born again believers life. We need His assistance to weave the golden threads of Scripture together and to bring things of Scripture to our minds that we have previously read. To assist us in spiritual discernment of spiritual things. Without Him we would be blind and could only see the superficial things of Scripture and never able to come to the Truth.

The word study I presented was to show only that our understanding of the word prophecy might not be what we have always believed it was. When studying the Scriptures, I try vigorously to leave behind preconceived notions so that my mind is open to the Spirits leadership. I explore all possible options, so that when finally settled on a position, I can have confidence in that position. If one starts from a position, whether that be of something one read or were previously taught, then that person has little hope of being open minded to other possibilities.

BTW you should have included in your list another important point. I would add this point, (6. Reproof.

 

[awelight]

The morphemes/etymology of the word is not inconsistent with what I have described either. In English, when we say 'fireman' that does not mean a stunt man in a suit that is caught on fire or a fire juggler or some kind of fire-spouting superhero. It has a specific meeting which we know because of how it is used. The same is true with 'prophesy' in the New Testament.



I was referring to that quote, which took something supernatural from God and made it sound mundane. Were the rest of his works like that. Many Reformed and Presbyterian commentators have a blind spot when it comes to the definition of 'prophecy', going back to John Calvin, though even he did not exactly equate prophesying with preaching and teaching. (Barnes was tried by his denomination for advocating the idea of free will, if I understand correctly.) The commentary I read from Gills, he really doesn't come down on either side of the issue. Barnes did not either, just that his terminology made prophecy sound like it might be of mere human origin.

But if there is a poor line in a commentary that does not properly communicate what a passage says, the commentary is not proof that the passage does not say what it says. Do not let your loyalty to a commentator blind you to what the scriptures say.

Ellicott's commentary from https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_timothy/1-18.htm says the following,


Notice he sees this as 'prophetic utterances' and connects it to examples like Agabus' prophecies of the famine, Agabus' prophecy about Paul's calling, and the Spirit speaking when Barnabas and Saul were sent out.

From the same site, Benson's commentary says:


Whether there was some official receiving of Timothy as an evangelist, I do not know, but notice that Benson has some understanding of the word 'prophecies' when he describes them as 'special revelations.'[/QUOTE]

I never believe what a commentator says, unless I think he has a valid point on a particular understanding. While he may not have the last word on the subject expressed, he has a word.

In my previous posts I have shown that the word "prophecy" may need to be understood in a different way than most have accepted. Having said this, let me clarify where I am on this issue.

I believe that certain men were given the gift of prophecy to complete the Scriptures and thus the revelation of God to His people and to edify the church. This gift primarily means the ability to be "inspired" by the Holy Spirit. In this way, protecting the Truth of God in their writings and their speech. The sole purpose of this gift was two fold: 1) To complete the Scriptures as God breathed, and 2) T edify the church in the absents of the completed Scriptures and few written documents.

It cannot be said that such "inspiration" continues today, as we as believers must study and put aside our preconceived notions in order to come to the Truth. Our studies being assisted by the Holy Spirit along the way. However, one cannot say today that his/her understanding of the Scriptures as a whole or in part, is flawless. All of us have found error in one part or another in our understanding and had to correct it. (Are should have corrected it.) If one says, I have never been in error, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. So how can one say that they are "inspired" today? Inspiration, as defined in the Scriptures never has error. Therefore, the gift of prophecy cannot exist today. No one speaks from Divine inspiration, not even the men of God, behind the pulpit.

BTW, which is it? The Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost? He is not both, regardless of the King James translation. He is a Spirit, as God is Spirit. He is not some paranormal ghost. Most true Christians come to that understanding rather quickly in their conversion experiences. I say this not to be cute or ugly but you should give this some due consideration and come to a settled position on it.

 

[awelight]

Syalom

Every day on youtube pastor Yusuf manubulu broadcast testimonies Muslim convert.most of the time when Indonesian Muslim convert it is because visions or dream, they are suffer persecution, disown by their family.
The testimonies is in Indonesian. I enjoy listen their testimony.

One of the testimony I listen about a month ago involve prophecy.

This is the story.
A man work for oil mine in the jungle of rio Sumatra.
He was a drinker and free sex doer.
One day he think about repent, go to jungle to pray.
He meet a person that live alone in a simple house in that jungle.
He asked if he can pray at his house. That man let him use his house.
After pray for several time, that man said: if you want happy you must change the way you pray. You pray to Allah that is not real god, pray to Jesus it will make you different.

He admire that man because he have experience with him
One day he and that man walk to the man house, they saw a thief try to steal a rice. He want to catch the thief, but that man stop him and ask him to hide. Don't let the thief know that we know, we have to love him, not make him shame.

That make him admire that man.

So he try to do what that man ask him, pray to Jesus.
He saw a light, come to his room than the light turn to a cross.
He decide to accept Jesus. He told his wife and ask his wife to go to church together.
His wife angry and treathen to divorce him if he go to church.

So he told to that man what happen, that man prophecied, if you not go to church, in a year you life will jeopardize.

That man move and he no longer have communication

And it was right. He steal a man wife, back to drink and lose his happiness. Free sex and drink not make him happy but he did it.

On his birthday his wife ask him to stay home, she cook for him to celebrate his birthday.
He didn't care and went to his girlfriend. The wife craved and pray in a Muslim way from 3 pm to 12 pm.

A man with white rob come and say: if you want save, follow your husband,

Follow what? Drink and free sex?

That man said it 3x than she remember one time her husband ask her to follow Jesus.

When her husband come, she ask if he can go to church together.
He said no, his live was bad and drinker and free sex doer not suppose to go to church.
He wonder why, also he never go to church.

While they talk, a Christian friend come, ask if she call her. She wasn't but the friend accept a call from her.

The friend say ok, and say goodby. She remember the friend is christian so before the friend left she ask. Wait, can I go to church with you? The friend say, my church is in Batak, the local language that she don't understand but if you want your neighbor church is in Indonesian and you can go with her.
She went with her and her husband, when people sing, she cry and fell happy, she ask to be baptize on the spot.

Now he is a pastor, give back his girls friend to her husband.

I'm sorry but this is a bunch of ridicules humanism. Not a word of Scriptural truth in it. This may sound good to the worldly mind but to a true Christian this is sickening.

 

[Major]

So you believe no more need prophecy today because we able to read all prophecy in the Bible, am I correct?

I am from Indonesia, Muslim country, I listen a lot of testimony from YouTube, how some Muslim convert to Christian because sign and miracle and prophecy.

Do you believe all they testimonies are lie? Because no more sign and prophecies

First of all I am very very blessed to hear that you are born again!!

That is exciting news!

I am so glad that you are coming out of the Muslim religion.

So then to be very nice I would not use the world LIES. I would however say that ......most if not all of what you hear are shall I say "Exaggerations". Everyone wants to have a great story to tell. The greater the story the better the person looks in his own eyes.

Miracles are not the basis of salvation. Signs and wonders do not make anyone a Christian. Only faith in the work of Jesus Christ and His resurrection from the dead saves us.......PEROID!

SIGNS and WONDERS are not valid today to the Christian believer. SIGNS were for the Jews not the Christians.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:22 .......
"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:"

As for prophecies......NO!

All of the prophetic word of God is found in the Word of God. IF there is anything to be said by anyone then whatever is said MUST BE FOUND IN THE WORD OF GOD.

WHY?????

Deut. 4:2......
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Anyone who says today that they have received a NEW Word from God has just broken the command of Deut. 4:2. and that would make that person a FALSE PROPHET!

 

[Major]

From the same site, Benson's commentary says:


Whether there was some official receiving of Timothy as an evangelist, I do not know, but notice that Benson has some understanding of the word 'prophecies' when he describes them as 'special revelations.'

I never believe what a commentator says, unless I think he has a valid point on a particular understanding. While he may not have the last word on the subject expressed, he has a word.

In my previous posts I have shown that the word "prophecy" may need to be understood in a different way than most have accepted. Having said this, let me clarify where I am on this issue.

I believe that certain men were given the gift of prophecy to complete the Scriptures and thus the revelation of God to His people and to edify the church. This gift primarily means the ability to be "inspired" by the Holy Spirit. In this way, protecting the Truth of God in their writings and their speech. The sole purpose of this gift was two fold: 1) To complete the Scriptures as God breathed, and 2) T edify the church in the absents of the completed Scriptures and few written documents.

It cannot be said that such "inspiration" continues today, as we as believers must study and put aside our preconceived notions in order to come to the Truth. Our studies being assisted by the Holy Spirit along the way. However, one cannot say today that his/her understanding of the Scriptures as a whole or in part, is flawless. All of us have found error in one part or another in our understanding and had to correct it. (Are should have corrected it.) If one says, I have never been in error, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. So how can one say that they are "inspired" today? Inspiration, as defined in the Scriptures never has error. Therefore, the gift of prophecy cannot exist today. No one speaks from Divine inspiration, not even the men of God, behind the pulpit.

BTW, which is it? The Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost? He is not both, regardless of the King James translation. He is a Spirit, as God is Spirit. He is not some paranormal ghost. Most true Christians come to that understanding rather quickly in their conversion experiences. I say this not to be cute or ugly but you should give this some due consideration and come to a settled position on it.[/QUOTE]

I agree and you are correct IMO.

It is clear to me that many on this site are not concerned with what the Bible actually says and are instead more concerned with WHAT THEY KNOW even when what they know is wrong.

 

[Dino246]

SIGNS and WONDERS are not valid today to the Christian believer. SIGNS were for the Jews not the Christians.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:22 .......
"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:"

The verse you cited does not say that signs were for the Jews, but rather that Jews wanted signs; a very different concept.

All of the prophetic word of God is found in the Word of God. IF there is anything to be said by anyone then whatever is said MUST BE FOUND IN THE WORD OF GOD.

WHY?????

Deut. 4:2......
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Anyone who says today that they have received a NEW Word from God has just broken the command of Deut. 4:2. and that would make that person a FALSE PROPHET!

Wrong. There were prophecies spoken that were not recorded in Scripture. Agabus (among others) was known as a prophet before he prophesied the famine in Acts 11. Philip's daughters prophesied in Acts 21, but their words were not recorded.

Deuteronomy 4:2 was specific to the Law, not to prophecy in general. If it were, then every prophet after Moses was a false prophet.

Anyone who claims to have a new word for all of Christianity is in error, because they are essentially claiming to be adding to Scripture. However, God still speaks prophetic words to individuals and groups; these are not intended to be added to Scripture.

 

[Jackson123]

First of all I am very very blessed to hear that you are born again!!

That is exciting news!

I am so glad that you are coming out of the Muslim religion.

So then to be very nice I would not use the world LIES. I would however say that ......most if not all of what you hear are shall I say "Exaggerations". Everyone wants to have a great story to tell. The greater the story the better the person looks in his own eyes.

Miracles are not the basis of salvation. Signs and wonders do not make anyone a Christian. Only faith in the work of Jesus Christ and His resurrection from the dead saves us.......PEROID!

SIGNS and WONDERS are not valid today to the Christian believer. SIGNS were for the Jews not the Christians.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:22 .......
"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:"

As for prophecies......NO!

All of the prophetic word of God is found in the Word of God. IF there is anything to be said by anyone then whatever is said MUST BE FOUND IN THE WORD OF GOD.

WHY?????

Deut. 4:2......
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Anyone who says today that they have received a NEW Word from God has just broken the command of Deut. 4:2. and that would make that person a FALSE PROPHET!

Firstable, I am not out from Muslim. I am from Muslim country but never been Muslim.
What I wrote is from YouTube broadcast by pastor Yusuf manubalu.

I do believe this people not lie, but you free not to believe.

I do believe because some of those converter are famous person like Yosef Ronny, the prince of Palembang. Indonesia was consist of some small kingdom, unite as republic in 1945. The kings not reign anymore but they still have palace and taking care by government. When he convert, he want to jail for 6 years

Not make him. Look good, he lost his title as prince, not inherit his palace,
To me he is honest.
Just to lie make him poor, 6 years in the prison?

I don't personally know him, like you personally don't know president trump, but if president trump lie and say he was Muslim you know he is lie.

So do Yusuf rony. If he lie pretend to ex Muslim, I know. His kingdom was Muslim kingdom, his family have 9 mosques.


,

 

[Major]

The verse you cited does not say that signs were for the Jews, but rather that Jews wanted signs; a very different concept.


Wrong. There were prophecies spoken that were not recorded in Scripture. Agabus (among others) was known as a prophet before he prophesied the famine in Acts 11. Philip's daughters prophesied in Acts 21, but their words were not recorded.

Deuteronomy 4:2 was specific to the Law, not to prophecy in general. If it were, then every prophet after Moses was a false prophet.

Anyone who claims to have a new word for all of Christianity is in error, because they are essentially claiming to be adding to Scripture. However, God still speaks prophetic words to individuals and groups; these are not intended to be added to Scripture.

Of course I can not agree with that at all! Your comment is not surprising though.

 

[Major]

Firstable, I am not out from Muslim. I am from Muslim country but never been Muslim.
What I wrote is from YouTube broadcast by pastor Yusuf manubalu.

I do believe this people not lie, but you free not to believe.

I do believe because some of those converter are famous person like Yosef Ronny, the prince of Palembang. Indonesia was consist of some small kingdom, unite as republic in 1945. The kings not reign anymore but they still have palace and taking care by government. When he convert, he want to jail for 6 years

Not make him. Look good, he lost his title as prince, not inherit his palace,
To me he is honest.
Just to lie make him poor, 6 years in the prison?

I don't personally know him, like you personally don't know president trump, but if president trump lie and say he was Muslim you know he is lie.

So do Yusuf rony. If he lie pretend to ex Muslim, I know. His kingdom was Muslim kingdom, his family have 9 mosques.


,

Everyone lies my friend.

Psalms 116:11........
"I said in my haste, All men are liars."

 

[presidente]

In my previous posts I have shown that the word "prophecy" may need to be understood in a different way than most have accepted.

That's the issue. Some of the quotes you gave were quite clearly about revelatory speech(/communication). Some quotes were not clear enough for someone who had never encountered the word 'prophecy' who looked only at those verses to know what the word means. But all of them fit with the understanding that prophecy is revelatory communication. None challenged the definition.

I believe that certain men were given the gift of prophecy to complete the Scriptures and thus the revelation of God to His people and to edify the church. This gift primarily means the ability to be "inspired" by the Holy Spirit. In this way, protecting the Truth of God in their writings and their speech. The sole purpose of this gift was two fold: 1) To complete the Scriptures as God breathed, and 2) T edify the church in the absents of the completed Scriptures and few written documents.

Your assertions here do not stand up to the light of scripture since it is very clear from scripture that not all prophecies are recorded therein. For example, prophets who came down from Shiloh met Saul and prophesied. Saul prophesied. Their prophecies aren't in scripture. The book of Iddo the seer is not in our Bibles. Micaiah had given Ahab some prophecies he did not like before the one prophecy from him recorded in the Bible. Jesus is the Logos, the express image of God's person. Yet John supposed if all He did were written, the world could not could not contain the books. The seven thunders were not written down in the book of Revelation. And there were apparently prophets in Jerusalem, Corinth, and other places giving prophecies, perhaps on a weekly basis or more often, than are not recorded in scripture. Prophecy can contain the secrets of the hearts of an unbelieving visitor to a church meeting, but such prophecies are not recorded in the Bible.

Nor does the Bible teach that prophecy was only to write scripture or as a stop-gap measure given until scripture could be written. Why would the secrets of the heart of an unbeliever who comes into the assembly be exposed through prophecy if prophecies function was to reveal Biblical doctrine until the canon should be written?

You hold to a doctrine on this issue that is not taught in scripture and that does not line up with scripture.

It cannot be said that such "inspiration" continues today, as we as believers must study and put aside our preconceived notions in order to come to the Truth. Our studies being assisted by the Holy Spirit along the way. However, one cannot say today that his/her understanding of the Scriptures as a whole or in part, is flawless. All of us have found error in one part or another in our understanding and had to correct it. (Are should have corrected it.) If one says, I have never been in error, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. So how can one say that they are "inspired" today? Inspiration, as defined in the Scriptures never has error. Therefore, the gift of prophecy cannot exist today. No one speaks from Divine inspiration, not even the men of God, behind the pulpit.

You could use the same line of reasoning to argue that there is no scripture and that Paul's epistles were not inspired. Paul wrote 'we know in part.' That included him. Peter suggested building tabernacles for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah to stay on the mouth of transfiguration-- when he'd just woken up and wasn't thinking very clearly. Peter wrote scripture, but he was not infallible. He told Jesus he would not deny Jesus, and then he did. He did not eat with the Gentiles when he should have as recorded in Galatians. Either Paul or Barnabas may have been wrote about taking John Mark on a missionary journey. They weren't infallible.

One does not have to be omniscient or infallible to communicate infallible truth under the leading of the Spirit.

BTW, which is it? The Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost? He is not both, regardless of the King James translation. He is a Spirit, as God is Spirit. He is not some paranormal ghost. Most true Christians come to that understanding rather quickly in their conversion experiences. I say this not to be cute or ugly but you should give this some due consideration and come to a settled position on it.

'Holy Ghost' means 'Holy Spirit.' It's archaic terminology. Sometimes I quote from the KJV. Don't get bent out of shape about it. Think of it like an idiom. I don't think anyone here thinks the term refers to the Spirit of someone who is deceased. Honestly, I do not know what you are talking about. I assume you are objecting to my using 'Holy Ghost' in some post. I am not cognizant of whether I used 'Holy Ghost' or 'Holy Spirit' in past posts. I use the terms interchangeably.

 

[presidente]

Syalom
This is the story.
A man work for oil mine in the jungle of rio Sumatra.

I have at least one in-law who worked in that area.

After pray for several time, that man said: if you want happy you must change the way you pray. You pray to Allah that is not real god, pray to Jesus it will make you different.

I'm curious how he said that in Indonesian. The Indonesian Bible uses 'Allah' for God, so did he say 'Allah' is not God, or something like 'Alahnya kamu'-- 'your Allah' is not God.

Btw, biblically, I have no reason to believe that a testimony like that could not be true.

 

[presidente]

I'm sorry but this is a bunch of ridicules humanism. Not a word of Scriptural truth in it. This may sound good to the worldly mind but to a true Christian this is sickening.

So are you saying that Jackson123, myself, and others who are not sickened by this are not true Christians?

I'm assuming the individuals in this story because Christians after hearing the Gospel, not just from seeing light in vision.

Why would you find this sickening? If you open Acts, you will find a testimony of a man who had a vision so bright it blinded him who put his faith in Christ.

 

[presidente]

Miracles are not the basis of salvation. Signs and wonders do not make anyone a Christian. Only faith in the work of Jesus Christ and His resurrection from the dead saves us.......PEROID!

Who said such miracles are the basis for salvation? There are plenty of people whose hearts were opened up to the truth through miracles. Randomly flip open to a few pages within the Gospels for a few examples. Or look atthe healing of the servant early in the book of John.

SIGNS and WONDERS are not valid today to the Christian believer. SIGNS were for the Jews not the Christians.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:22 .......
"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:"

You have a strange way of interpreting that verse, apparently. This verse has to do with the demands of the Jews in relation to signs, not God's purposes for signs.

The Samaritans, a part of a people-group Jesus called foreigners, paid close attention to Philip when they saw the signs that he did. Sergius Paulus, presumably a Gentile. In Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas told of the signs they did among the Gentiles.

As for prophecies......NO!

All of the prophetic word of God is found in the Word of God. IF there is anything to be said by anyone then whatever is said MUST BE FOUND IN THE WORD OF GOD.

According to scripture, not all prophecies are in scripture. What did King Saul say when he prophesied? What did the seven thunders say? you cannot tell me because these things are not recorded in scripture.

Deut. 4:2......
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Anyone who says today that they have received a NEW Word from God has just broken the command of Deut. 4:2. and that would make that person a FALSE PROPHET!

You are misinterpreting scripture... again... since Deuteronomy also taught about prophets, and God spoke to prophets after Dueteronomy. Do not add to the words the Lord gave them, though. But neither should you take away from them. The New Testament says to 'despise not prophesyings. ' If you reject them, is that 'diminish'ing 'ought' from the prophecies?