Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

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Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Look what you said in post #588 above:

"2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT "returns.

one with those harvested from earth, TO HEAVEN"

This assertion you made is found nowhere on the Bible, it isn't even inferred.

The second come of Christ is always set after the great tribulation in conjunction with the rapture and resurrection of the dead.

Adding on two different returns of Christ to the earth is the only way you can make your doctrine work. It's flatly unBibiclical. I'm not going to even ask you to provide verses because they aren't there to provide.
It seems the originators of the pre-trib fable had a misunderstanding about what 'the heavens' are.
The sky or atmosphere of earth which is part of "the heavens" isn't the same as 'heaven' - near or inside the throne room of God.
Much of it seems to be based on a belief that being "caught up to meet" must mean going all the way to the highest heaven.
They taught me a pre-trib rapture fable when I was a new Christian. Then I read The Bible & the doctrine bothered me.
There are too many holes & inconsistencies. We are asked to believe-

2 second comings
4 to 7 resurrections (depending on who you talk to)
Another trumpet after the last trumpet
Another day after the last day
Martyrs who are not part of The Church

And a partridge in a pear tree.....
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,385
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At the time of His "RETURN" (to the earth Rev19), this is what happens: "[said to the ANGELS/REAPERS] GATHER YE *FIRST* the TARES..."


(the complete OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that which happens at the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event ;) )
Is this Mathew 13 you are referring to? Wheat & tares.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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Then I read The Bible & the doctrine bothered me.
There are too many holes & inconsistencies. We are asked to believe-
2 second comings
Well, as you well know, ALL of us insert the word "SECOND" when describing His return to the earth, but Scripture itself never uses that word to describe it. I'm not saying that it's wrong to use that word, just that it can cause some confusion to ppl who, in their minds, now *think* it's a biblical term: "SECOND coming" ... this is to distinquish it from His "FIRST advent" as we term it... but even in His so-called "FIRST advent," there was:

--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,

--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.

[i.e. TWO DISTINCT time-slots" when the word "COME" was used, but both pertaining to what WE call His "FIRST advent" ;) ]


Micah 5:2 -
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."


Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."


Is only ONE of these ^ passage speaking of His "FIRST ADVENT," or are both of them about that, even though speaking of events some THIRTY YEARS APART!... and both using the word "COME" [heaven forbid! O.O ]


(whereas other passages speak of events surrounding His "SECOND ADVENT," yet future--some of them also covering A SPANS OF TIME OF SOME DURATION, just as in His "First Advent" events did).

[end quoting that old post]


... bottom line, the word "COME" (speaking of "future" things yet to take place) is used BOTH of His "meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" *and* His "RETURN" to the earth ("when he shall RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347], per Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and its parallel in Matt24 sections, vv.26-31 and vv.36-51 where the word "come" is used--In fact, ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/coming of/etc" speaks of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom])
4 to 7 resurrections (depending on who you talk to)
... and yet, the "TWO WITNESSES" are resurrected from the dead at a time-slot COMPLETELY DISTINCT from when all others are resurrected (theirs being at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time-slot)...


which makes perfect sense, since Scripture itself does say, "[re: resurrection] ...but EACH [G1538 (meaning, 'of more than two'--see below)] in his own ORDER," where I had put in a previous post, the following [excerpt from there]:


"[re: resurrection] but EACH [G1538] in his own ORDER" ... this means that there is an ORDER to it, and that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE (yet to occur):

[quoting from BibleHub]

[re: "EACH"] "1538 hékastos (from hekas, "separate") – each (individual) unit viewed distinctly, i.e. as opposed to "severally" (as a group)." [under the "Strong's" heading]
[and]
"each (of more than two)" [under the "HELPS Word-studies" heading]

[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline mine]

Note that Paul goes to great lengths to tell us (that which pertains to US / all those saved "in this present age") that we are:

[...<snip>... (more at that post)]
Another trumpet after the last trumpet
Actually, there are the SEVEN [judgment] Trumpets, which are also distinct from this one, as is "The GREAT Trumpet" also distinct; but Scripture itself tells (in Numbers 10) of the manner in which [/the patterns of how they were to be "sounded"] DIFFERED as to the various PURPOSES of the "sounds [/patterns of the blowing of them]"... so in our NT, there are these:


--"The LAST Trumpet" [1Cor15:52... "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY"]

--the "SEVEN [judgment] Trumpets" [Rev]

--"The GREAT Trumpet" [Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13]


... and in this case, I believe that top one corresponds with Numbers 10:4 ("shall gather UNTO YOU"), and... we're all aware of the phrase "the last shall be first...," right? ;)

Another day after the last day
Not really... it's just that "The Last Day" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day," and that MUCH will transpire within that time-period [/within that Millennium]; the "resurrection [/'to stand again' on the earth]" of the OT saints, and Trib saints (who died in the Trib) being just one of those things.
Martyrs who are not part of The Church
Sure, believers who are "martyred" in a time-period following "our Rapture/The Departure" are not members of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23], but they are "saints" nonetheless (those saints who DON'T die in the trib, and are "still-living" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth/"RETURN" to the earth, will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children, yet Jesus also says they "SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?" [Jn11:23-26]).

Daniel 12:12 and about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speak of THIS (event / occurrence / time-slot in the chronology). Their ENTRANCE into "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" (i.e. the earthly MK age) never having "lifted off the earth," as well as never having died (not that these are the ONLY ones to participate in the MK age, no).


But just because they are never called "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" doesn't make them any less of a "saint" than, say, John the Baptist ("FRIEND of the Bridegroom" [note: apparently he's also not part of "the BRIDE/Wife [SINGULAR]" ;) ])... mmmm, recall Matt11:11/Lk7:28... ("least... greater"... hmmm...).

[note: Eph1:10 is not speaking of "this present age" as the rest of the epistle IS speaking of...]


And a partridge in a pear tree.....
You're on your own, with that one. ;)
 
Mar 4, 2020
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It seems the originators of the pre-trib fable had a misunderstanding about what 'the heavens' are.
The sky or atmosphere of earth which is part of "the heavens" isn't the same as 'heaven' - near or inside the throne room of God.
Much of it seems to be based on a belief that being "caught up to meet" must mean going all the way to the highest heaven.
They taught me a pre-trib rapture fable when I was a new Christian. Then I read The Bible & the doctrine bothered me.
There are too many holes & inconsistencies. We are asked to believe-

2 second comings
4 to 7 resurrections (depending on who you talk to)
Another trumpet after the last trumpet
Another day after the last day
Martyrs who are not part of The Church

And a partridge in a pear tree.....
John Nelson Darby is attributed with inventing the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine at around 1830. Some sources say it was invented by Morgan Edwards almost 100 years earlier in 1740.

Since the time Jesus first foretold what the signs of his second coming would be like, it was understood it would occur after a period of intense worldwide calamity. In Matthew 24, Jesus refers to his second coming to the days of Noah when everyone died except for those who were in the ark. Jesus is our ark. This theme is consistent with Revelation.

We now know that when Jesus returns it'll be after what is known as the great tribulation and under no circumstances does the Bible say it will occur before this.

Fortunately, we have a well-preserved Bible that doesn't change even when fad doctrines rise up.

My final thoughts on this, encourage people to read their Bible. Too many people are being diverted by denominational loyalties.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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In Matthew 24, Jesus refers to his second coming to the days of Noah when everyone died except for those who were in the ark. Jesus is our ark. This theme is consistent with Revelation.
EVERYTHING in Matthew 24 is referring to things that take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (IOW, "NOAH and crew" are not who represent "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" in the "types," ... "ENOCH" [ONE MAN] was... who was taken up BEFORE the flood-judgment unfolded upon the earth).

Thus, Matthew 24:36-42 / Lk17:24-37 = Gen9:1's and Dan2:35's "[actively] FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth" (i.e. with their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children that ENTER the time-period [/-periods] which follow/followed these particular events [i.e. the earthly MK age, in the "future" one]). Not speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" who will have already been raptured well-before that point (and after which, in the time that follows our Rapture event, not 100% of the rest of the ppl are "destroyed" as is true of the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth/RETURN that these Matt24/Lk17 passages ARE referring to... for some ppl will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture").

We know that "the DOTL" time-period *ARRIVES* like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]" ]"... but that is not at the END of the Trib... MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" will follow on from that INITIAL one, and that unfolds over the course of SOME TIME. It is NOT "ONE and DONE" when it comes to "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (<--and these are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period [i.e. the 7 Trib yrs], per Rev1:1[/19c/4:1]--the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book of Rev.)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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I'm convinced that few people these days like to study Scripture for themselves, but resort SOLELY to "he says, she says" :rolleyes: (few real "bereans" )
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Show me anywhere in Scripture that the "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" (re: Him) speaks of anything BEFORE His DEATH/CROSS...
It doesn't. ALL TEN TIMES that "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" occurs (re: Jesus), ALL TEN of them refer to the time-period FOLLOWING His Resurrection! ;)

As I see it, ppl are reading the verse (Heb9:28) incorrectly:

Hebrews 9:28 YLT -

"so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many,

a second time apart from a sin-offering [/sin] shall appear,

to those waiting for him -- to salvation!"

[Response to the idea that Heb9:28 refers to how Jesus ONLY comes at His Second Coming to the earth, not a separate time for our Rapture--Heb9:28 refers to neither of these..., as I see it... and it would take a lot to convince me otherwise, in view of the following...]

From Hebrews 9:28 (where the "passive" form of G3708 ['appear'] is used)...

out of the 684 usages of "G3708,"

TEN TIMES that the word "[G3708] appear [PASSIVE]" is used regarding Jesus,
ALL TEN of them refer to AFTER His death/resurrection

(and it was only to carefully chosen witnesses, not to every person everywhere--5 occurrences [of those 10 times], in Scripture where used, are regarding their seeing Him on the earth, the other 5 occurrences regarding one seeing Him EXALTED IN HEAVEN):

[...<snip LIST of those TEN references>...]



Note: ANOTHER verse that speaks of Jesus' "appeared [passive]" (also following His resurrection) is a completely different word, "G5316 - ephanē - passive"...
and that verse is,
--Mark 16:9 saying, "He appeared [G5316 - ephanē] first to Mary Magdalene..." (but she was only told to "GO TO MY BRETHREN, and SAY UNTO THEM..." [re: His "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" He was doing THAT VERY DAY, "Firstfruit"/Lev23:10-12/1Cor15:20/on His Resurrection Day])



So in light of how the passive form of "appear [G3708; passive]" [as in Heb9:28] is used of JESUS (ALL AFTER His resurrection, in the 40-days He shewed Himself, PLUS ['LAST of all'] to Paul even AFTER His visible ascension in Acts 1 [/"40 days" LATER, so AFTER THAT even])...

TEN TIMES referred to in Scripture (re: Him), we can begin to see a clearer picture of what Hebrews 9:28 is actually conveying.


It is not referring to His VERY VISIBLE [to ALL, even to unbelievers] Second Coming to the earth (FOR the earthly MK age), but over a specific time period (comparable to the "40-day-period" He did this same "appear [passive; G3807]" to carefully chosen witnesses, and even to Paul after His VISIBLE ascension [that is, from Heaven--see Acts 9:17,13:31,26:16, etc])...



My own view is that the phrasing is more like the following:
Hebrews 9:28 YLT -

"28 so also the Christ once having been offered to bear the sins of many

[this is the Cross moment--THEN He "appeared [G3708 - passive]," according to TEN VERSES, to carefully chosen witnesses over the course of 40 days (following His FIRST ascension ON FF/His Resurrection Day), PLUS to Paul FROM HEAVEN AFTER His *later* VISIBLE ascension (Acts1)]

..."a second time apart from a sin-offering [/sin] shall appear

[this is all one thought ^ ; the SECOND time that He will "appear [passive; G3708]" apart from sin (LIKE the FIRST time He appeared "apart from sin" FOLLOWING His finished CROSS-work--though it was numerous appearances, all told), He will do THIS "a second time... [again apart-from-sin]"... ]

..."to those waiting for him -- to salvation!"

["[shall appear] to those eagerly awaiting Him--to salvation!"; not the time He will visibly appear to everyone all over the world (believers *and* unbelievers) at the split-second moment of His Second Coming to the earth at His "RETURN"]



ALL TEN of these earlier references refer to that which occurred AFTER He "appeared [G5316-passive (DIFFERENT WORD here)] FIRST to Mary Magdalene," and ALL TEN of those [G3708 (passive)] references I believe refer to what will occur BEFORE His VERY VISIBLE-TO-ALL [even all unbelievers] Second Coming to the earth (FOR the earthly MK age), again during a very specific time period (and more like the circumstances were FOR PAUL, that is, FROM HEAVEN a revealing in an "AHA!" kind of thing--a "lightbulb moment" as some like to say), and only to certain people who, I believe, will again be "witnesses" to The Truth! (and again at great personal cost to themselves, DURING the future tribulation period--The pattern [previously mentioned] holds true.)


[I think I've mentioned in past posts how that I believe Paul is a "type" of "the 144,000"... I think there are studies out there showing the numerous similarities between them... and for Paul it was like this: "[Acts 9:3] SUDDENLY also a light from heaven flashed around him" and "[Acts 22:6] that SUDDENLY a great light out of heaven shone around me" and "[Acts 26] 13 at midday on the road, O king, I saw, a light from heaven above, the brightness of the sun, having shone around me and those journeying with me. 14 And of all of us having fallen down to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’"... and of whom he also had said, "And LAST of all, He appeared [G3708 - PASSIVE] also to me, as to one of untimely birth" (i.e. one born earlier than the rest will be--and recall my study on how I believe "the 144,000" are "FIRSTFRUIT" of the "WHEAT" harvest, per the SECOND mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23, that is, in v.17, parallel Rev14:4 language... and where Lev23:17 says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [There are distinct "harvests"--That is, there are more than one "harvest" in Scripture and in nature--the WHEAT harvest is threshed by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement), whereas the earlier harvest by means of "tossing up into the AIR [and 'blowing' away the chaff]"])]





Another aspect of this study (^ pertaining), is... the reason for the TWO DISTINCT words for "Lamb" (regarding Him): "Amnos [G286]" and "Arnion [G721]" (this one used only one other time outside of Rev)
 
Jul 23, 2018
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John Nelson Darby is attributed with inventing the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine at around 1830. Some sources say it was invented by Morgan Edwards almost 100 years earlier in 1740.

Since the time Jesus first foretold what the signs of his second coming would be like, it was understood it would occur after a period of intense worldwide calamity. In Matthew 24, Jesus refers to his second coming to the days of Noah when everyone died except for those who were in the ark. Jesus is our ark. This theme is consistent with Revelation.

We now know that when Jesus returns it'll be after what is known as the great tribulation and under no circumstances does the Bible say it will occur before this.

Fortunately, we have a well-preserved Bible that doesn't change even when fad doctrines rise up.

My final thoughts on this, encourage people to read their Bible. Too many people are being diverted by denominational loyalties.
That's like saying paul invented salvation to the gentiles.

Men will lead you way off center.
I defend pretrib rapture easily with Gods word.
Your doctrine ALWAYS attempts to use extra biblical dynamics.
I have never ever seen ANY POSTRIB debate our verses.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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John Nelson Darby is attributed with inventing the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine at around 1830. Some sources say it was invented by Morgan Edwards almost 100 years earlier in 1740.

Since the time Jesus first foretold what the signs of his second coming would be like, it was understood it would occur after a period of intense worldwide calamity. In Matthew 24, Jesus refers to his second coming to the days of Noah when everyone died except for those who were in the ark. Jesus is our ark. This theme is consistent with Revelation.

We now know that when Jesus returns it'll be after what is known as the great tribulation and under no circumstances does the Bible say it will occur before this.

Fortunately, we have a well-preserved Bible that doesn't change even when fad doctrines rise up.

My final thoughts on this, encourage people to read their Bible. Too many people are being diverted by denominational loyalties.
""Fortunately, we have a well-preserved Bible that doesn't change even when fad doctrines rise up""

Amen
You never see me with postrib rapture tactics that need extra biblical sources and dynamics.

For example your group needs things ELIMINATED like the Catholics burning pretrib doctrine believers AND THEIR WRITINGS.
OR THE FACT that early postribs,which many were amil adherents, were looking through a prism of a non existant israel.

So what do postribs do?
They say israel is fake,the jewish race is diluted into gentiles,and the church has replaced israel.

(Basically making Roman's and rev 14 a lie)

So it is with great ease I can go that direction.
(In flow with your main deal which is "anti pretrib rapture")

My job is to make your doctrine go against the bible.
NOT fabricate as you do.

I Have said many times our versescare ignored.

They are because they easily destroy postrib rapture.

Destroy it quite handily...so postribs do not debate them
 
Jul 23, 2018
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It seems the originators of the pre-trib fable had a misunderstanding about what 'the heavens' are.
The sky or atmosphere of earth which is part of "the heavens" isn't the same as 'heaven' - near or inside the throne room of God.
Much of it seems to be based on a belief that being "caught up to meet" must mean going all the way to the highest heaven.
They taught me a pre-trib rapture fable when I was a new Christian. Then I read The Bible & the doctrine bothered me.
There are too many holes & inconsistencies. We are asked to believe-

2 second comings
4 to 7 resurrections (depending on who you talk to)
Another trumpet after the last trumpet
Another day after the last day
Martyrs who are not part of The Church

And a partridge in a pear tree.....
You can not prove or make a case for the rapture verses(gathering of the bride) ,And rev 14 gathering of the jews,
fit into the second coming of rev 19.

But just as powerful is that the dead rise 1st before the living.

Postrib doctrine has the dead rising AFTER THE LIVING gathered in rev 14.

Show me how you reconcile those 2 impossibilities.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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John Nelson Darby is attributed with inventing the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine at around 1830. Some sources say it was invented by Morgan Edwards almost 100 years earlier in 1740.

Since the time Jesus first foretold what the signs of his second coming would be like, it was understood it would occur after a period of intense worldwide calamity. In Matthew 24, Jesus refers to his second coming to the days of Noah when everyone died except for those who were in the ark. Jesus is our ark. This theme is consistent with Revelation.

We now know that when Jesus returns it'll be after what is known as the great tribulation and under no circumstances does the Bible say it will occur before this.

Fortunately, we have a well-preserved Bible that doesn't change even when fad doctrines rise up.

My final thoughts on this, encourage people to read their Bible. Too many people are being diverted by denominational loyalties.
"" My final thoughts on this, encourage people to read their Bible. Too many people are being diverted by denominational loyalties.""
Then end your extra biblical non validities
""Matthew 24, Jesus refers to his second coming to the days of Noah when everyone died except for those who were in the ark. Jesus is our ark. This theme is consistent with Revelation.""

Hello
In neither doctrine are "all the people destroyed"
See that? You invoked a false concept thinking you proved the noah dynamic had some post judgement departure.

Try hard to SEE the word "before" (the flood)

Preflood
Pretrib
Prejudgement

Jesus framed lot and noah as pretrib deliverance while watching and waiting.

Your doctrine demands noah and lot were delivered and taken out AFTER judgement.

Your doctrine goes on to have wicked taken out post judgement (even after you declared with noah all wicked died (which they did ...AND PROVES Jesus was not referring to what you think you proved)
Ark is a type of heaven
NOAH is taken into the ark PREFLOOD.
The ark (with noah and family) rises over a mile ABOVE THE EARTH.
Then after an extended period, RETURNS TO EARTH to set up a new kingdom.

Now why do you suppose your doctrine SKIPS and is oblivious to those dynamics?????

So vivid. So amazingly vivid!!!

How could you possibly have missed it??????

IOW,you need all that removed from the story.

It gets even better:
(Now remember this is in the "before judgent" shift of Jesus)
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

You guys say "that is wicked taken"

....which is disturbing that believers are to watch and pray for the wicked to be taken "BEFORE THE FLOOD "

So your doctrine declare before the flood all earths inhabitants are dead and wicked are taken? Huh? They are killed and taken ? some preflood rapture of the wicked? At the same time dead?

I mean factor that in

See what you guys did?

All by changing the bible
 
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Quote by lucy "
2 second comings
4 to 7 resurrections (depending on who you talk to)
Another trumpet after the last trumpet
Another day after the last day
Martyrs who are not part of The Church.""
Nope none of that.

But I have never centered on cherry picked dynamics.

I see all through the next main event I have made my center ,through years of study, (the gathering of the bride)

Those item you list are "one word pivot points"

One word-ers that postribs have used through the years as power points.

The thing is...one worder powerpoints do not erase my verses.

Jesus RETURNS to earth once.
All pretribbers believe that.

The catching of the bride is TO HEAVEN
the catching up of the 144k is TO HEAVEN the catching up of the jews after the 144k firstfruits is also To HEAVEN.

those items are solid and not erase able
 
Mar 4, 2020
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That's like saying paul invented salvation to the gentiles.

Men will lead you way off center.
I defend pretrib rapture easily with Gods word.
Your doctrine ALWAYS attempts to use extra biblical dynamics.
I have never ever seen ANY POSTRIB debate our verses.
I dashed pre-tribulation rapture theory to pieces in a handful of posts. I don't need over 30 pages of arguing to thoroughly use nothing but scripture to show when the rapture occurs. Glory to God.

I know you feel passionately about what you do, but I'm just going to let you know that even those with sincerely good intentions can be wrong. It isn't my place to tell you, but you aren't humble enough or submitted to the Word of God enough to see any differently. Someone needs to tell you this atleast once.

You have already lost a lot of credibility with saying Jesus comes back more than once. Attempting to rehash what you couldn't convince people of in over 30 pages shows a clear disregard for the truth.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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""The sky or atmosphere of earth which is part of "the heavens" isn't the same as 'heaven' - near or inside the throne room of God.
Much of it seems to be based on a belief that being "caught up to meet" must mean going all the way to the highest heaven. ""

Nope

There are 3 heavens according to Paul
The rapture is the gathering of the bride meeting the groom in the sky (mat 25)
That union proceeds to the fathers house.(as Jesus depicted in the last supper dialogue).

That same bride is DEPICTED IN HEAVEN In rev 19....During the gt.

Pretrib rapture fits like a glove
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I dashed pre-tribulation rapture theory to pieces in a handful of posts. I don't need over 30 pages of arguing to thoroughly use nothing but scripture to show when the rapture occurs. Glory to God.

I know you feel passionately about what you do, but I'm just going to let you know that even those with sincerely good intentions can be wrong. It isn't my place to tell you, but you aren't humble enough or submitted to the Word of God enough to see any differently. Someone needs to tell you this atleast once.

You have already lost a lot of credibility with saying Jesus comes back more than once. Attempting to rehash what you couldn't convince people of in over 30 pages shows a clear disregard for the truth.
Rev 14.

Two gatherings by Jesus
Firstfruit Jews
Then ripe fruit.

Vividly depicts Jesus with no horses,no power,and with a sickle.
Your reply is general and pinpoints none of my verses.

Try again
 
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Take any one pretrib rapture dynamic and debate it.

We all know what your conjecture is.

Pinpoint a pretrib rapture dynamic and unpack it.
 
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Saying "one coming" proves zero.

We both believe he comes postrib.

Your job is to remove or reframe the other comings FOR HIS PEOPLE.
 
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""You have already lost a lot of credibility with saying Jesus comes back more than once.""

Then you should have no problem taking my verses one by one and schooling me.

Begin please.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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hoti theos ou tithēmi hēmeis ho eis orgē, alla eis peripoiēsis sōtēria dia ho hēmeis kyrios Iēsous Christos
You can not prove or make a case for the rapture verses(gathering of the bride) ,And rev 14 gathering of the jews,
fit into the second coming of rev 19.

But just as powerful is that the dead rise 1st before the living.

Postrib doctrine has the dead rising AFTER THE LIVING gathered in rev 14.

Show me how you reconcile those 2 impossibilities.
You've made a twisted knot for yourself that you are asking me to untie for you through Pre-trib doctrinal goggles.
I'm not having a problem with Rev 14.

Pre-trib teachers avoid deep-dive studies. They are too busy tying verses in knots to try to prove their theory. The Revelation outlay is not strictly chronological. There are vignettes of the same events told in different ways. It uses the same structure & Semitic writing method as OT & Gospel records.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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Take any one pretrib rapture dynamic and debate it.

We all know what your conjecture is.

Pinpoint a pretrib rapture dynamic and unpack it.
You are asking to start with pre-tribulation doctrine and use the bible as a source to prove/ disprove it.
We should rather study scripture concerning last days without doctrinal bias.