If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

[BenjaminN]

The word tribulation's word origin is from the latin word tribulum, (English: wheat threshing-sledge, Hebrew: morag / מוֹרַג / Strongs H4173 ), used in the harvesting of wheat, to separate the wheat from the chaff in God's harvesting process which may entail tribulation.

Falling-away damage done by pretribulationism, to tribulation awareness of Christians, called to endure suffering in accordance with the will of God ( 1 Peter 4 - New King James Version - Suffering for God’s Glory - 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator. )

Wikipedia Pretribulationism of 1833:

Pretribulationism distinguishes the rapture from the second coming of Jesus Christ mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew, 2 Thessalonians, and Revelation. This view holds that the rapture will precede the seven-year Tribulation, which will culminate in Christ's second coming and be followed by a thousand-year Messianic Kingdom.[5][6] Adherents of this perspective are referred to as premillennial dispensationalists. This theory grew out of the translations of the Bible that John Nelson Darby analyzed in 1833. Pretribulationism is the most widely held view in America today, although this view is disputed within evangelicalism.[7]

Withering of (suffering in accordance with the will of God: ) tribulation awareness (falling away) since 1833:

CollinsDictionary.com : tribulation (use in literature whithering since 1833):

View attachment 223562

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[BenjaminN]

The word tribulation's word origin is from the latin word tribulum, (English: wheat threshing-sledge, Hebrew: morag / מוֹרַג / Strongs H4173 ), used in the harvesting of wheat, to separate the wheat from the chaff in God's harvesting process which may entail tribulation.

Falling-away damage done by pretribulationism, to tribulation awareness of Christians, called to endure suffering in accordance with the will of God ( 1 Peter 4 - New King James Version - Suffering for God’s Glory - 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator. )

Wikipedia Pretribulationism of 1833:

Pretribulationism distinguishes the rapture from the second coming of Jesus Christ mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew, 2 Thessalonians, and Revelation. This view holds that the rapture will precede the seven-year Tribulation, which will culminate in Christ's second coming and be followed by a thousand-year Messianic Kingdom.[5][6] Adherents of this perspective are referred to as premillennial dispensationalists. This theory grew out of the translations of the Bible that John Nelson Darby analyzed in 1833. Pretribulationism is the most widely held view in America today, although this view is disputed within evangelicalism.[7]

Withering of (suffering in accordance with the will of God: ) tribulation awareness (falling away) since 1833:

CollinsDictionary.com : tribulation (use in literature whithering since 1833):

 

[BenjaminN]

Of the seven types of churches of Revelation 2 & 3, during the great tribulation, the faithful type of church as in Philadelphia, is kept from the trials to come:

Revelation 3 ( New King James Version)

The Faithful Church
7 “And to the [e]angel of the church in Philadelphia write, 10 Because you have kept [g]My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

the other six types of churches of Revelation 2 & 3, during the great tribulation, receives these warning messages:

Revelation 2 ( New King James Version)

The Loveless Church
1 “To the [a]angel of the church of Ephesus write, 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

The Persecuted Church
8 “And to the [d]angel of the church in Smyrna write, 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

The Compromising Church
12 “And to the [f]angel of the church in Pergamos write, 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, [g]which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

The Corrupt Church
18 “And to the [h]angel of the church in Thyatira write, 20 Nevertheless I have [k]a few things against you, because you allow [l]that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, [m]to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

Revelation 3 ( New King James Version)

The Dead Church
1 “And to the [a]angel of the church in Sardis write, 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before [b]God. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

The Lukewarm Church
14 “And to the [i]angel of the church [j]of the Laodiceans write, 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.[l] Therefore be [m]zealous and repent. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

 

[BenjaminN]

 

[BenjaminN]

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

The Great Tribulation
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect (G1588 Strongs numbering - Greek "eklektos"). 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Strongs 1588 Greek Eklektos meaning click here:

1. picked out, chosen
   
   1. chosen by God,
      
      1. to obtain salvation through Christ
         
         1. Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
      2. the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
      3. choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

 

[BenjaminN]

Greek "Ekpheugo" (English "Escape, Seek safety in flight") <> Greek "Harpazo", (English "Raptured, caught up, pluck, pull by force, snatch out or away")


Greek "Ekpheugo" (English "Escape, Seek safety in flight")

Luke 21 (New King James Version)

The Importance of Watching
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [h]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [i]be counted worthy to escape (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight" - This is NOT alluding to the rapture / Greek "Harpazo") all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

For Greek meaning of Ekpheugo click here:

1. to flee out of, flee away
   
   1. to seek safety in flight
   2. to escape

Uses:

Luk 21:36
“Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[fn] to escape (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight") all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Act 16:27
And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight"), drew his sword and was about to kill himself.

Act 19:16
Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered[fn] them, and prevailed against them,[fn] so that they fled (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight") out of that house naked and wounded.

Rom 2:3
And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight") the judgment of God?

2Co 11:33
but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight") from his hands.

1Th 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight").

Heb 2:3
how shall we escape (Strongs number G1628, Greek: "Ekpheugo", English: "Flee out, escape flee, flee away, seek safety in flight") if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

 

[BenjaminN]

Greek "Ekpheugo" (English "Escape, Seek safety in flight") <> Greek "Harpazo", (English "Raptured, caught up, pluck, pull by force, snatch out or away")

Greek "Harpazo", (English "Raptured, caught up, pluck, pull by force, snatch out or away"):

1 Thessalonians 4 (New King James Version)

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away" - This is NOT alluding to the escape to seek safety in flight / Greek "Ekpheugo") together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

For meaning of Greek Harpazo click here

1. to seize, carry off by force
2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. to snatch out or away

Uses:

Mat 11:12
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away").

Mat 13:19
“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

Jhn 6:15
Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.

Jhn 10:12
“But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") the sheep and scatters them.

Jhn 10:28
“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") them out of My hand.

Jhn 10:29
“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") them out of My Father’s hand.

Act 8:39
Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

Act 23:10
Now when there arose a great dissension, the commander, fearing lest Paul might be pulled to pieces by them, commanded the soldiers to go down and take him by force (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") from among them, and bring him into the barracks.

2Co 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") to the third heaven.

2Co 12:4
how he was caught up (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1Th 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Jde 1:23
but others save with fear, pulling them out (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") of the fire,[fn] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Rev 12:5
She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up (Strongs number G726, Greek: "Harpazo", English: "to seize, carry off by force, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away") to God and His throne.

 

[BenjaminN]

The new covenant of God's elect through the blood of Christ Yeshua:

Hebrews 8 (New King James Version)
A New Covenant
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Jeremiah 31 (New King James Version)
A New Covenant
31“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, [h]though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

The millennium kingdom to be inherited by fellow heirs, of believing Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Christ, as the restored Israel (adopted and scattered ancient northern Samaria's Ephraim tribes, throughout the Gentile nations; and ancient southern Judea's Judah's tribes the Jews):

Ephesians 3 (New King James Version)
The Mystery Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Romans 11 (New King James Version )
Israel’s Rejection Not Final
25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

The anti-christ will try to deceive many (if it was possible even God's elect), and try to steal God's kingdom here on earth, but his attempt of theft will only last three-and-a-half years, before he will be destroyed by Christ Yeshua, when Christ Yeshua's millennial reign on earth starts, at the Body of Christs' post-tribulation rapture at Christ Yeshua's second coming, immediately after the great tribulation:

2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version )
The Great Apostasy
1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Matthew 24 (New King James Version )
The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[KT88]

The saints beheaded were the 1st century Christians:

Mat 10:17-18 And, take ye heed of men, for they will give you up to Sanhedrins, and in their synagogues they will scourge you, and before governors and kings ye shall be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the nations.

John 16:1-2 These things I have spoken to you, that ye may not be stumbled, out of the synagogues they will put you; but an hour doth come, that every one who hath killed you, may think to offer service unto God

 

[ChoirLoft]

So again regarding what you said "post-protestant Christian INTERPRETATION is wrong" are you saying that the word of God is not correct and that we can't trust in it? If yes, then you would be turning people away, because as you said, the interpretation is wrong.

When and where did I EVER suggest the Word of God is incorrect? I did not.

INTERPRETATION passes as gospel among racists and anti-semitic Jew hating Christians. What IS happening is that dogma/interpretation is decided FIRST. Then, after doctrine is decided, scripture is used in snippets and short verses to legitimize false attitudes and assumptions.

Every totalitarian society in history has done the same thing. The anti-Christ system, which is the Roman Catholic church, does the same thing. Post-protestant Christians do the same thing. Interpretation is a lie BECAUSE doctrine is supreme. The Word of God is only used to justify lies and demonic attitudes.

Nearly every Bible study I've attended in my many years of life has used this pattern - doctrine first, scripture second. As a result error subverts the truth of Biblical teaching. The foxes rule the hen house - rather the inmates rule the asylum.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

Well, that's just weird that you are saying this to me, because, IF you have read *my posts* carefully, *I* have NEVER suggested such a thing.

I've pointed out time and again... "the olive tree" does not represent "salvation" (or "Christ" or "eternal life" etc), for example;

..whereas (for example) both Calvinism and Arminianism misinterpret Romans 9-11, the Arminianists by keeping the entire CONTEXT to be about "individual salvation" (thus how they come up with their FAULTY "lose-your-salvation" doctrine), and the Calvinist by CHANGING the context mid-stream, going from [Subject of] "individual salvation" (in their view) to then being about "nations" (thereby missing the consistent CONTEXT).



I am always pointing out Rom11:2 - "God hath not cast away His people which He fore-knew ['to know before,' i.e. in OT times, speaking OF ISRAEL, here]."
(Not to mention pointing out v.32, the summation, "For God hath concluded them ALL [Jew and Gentile ALIKE] in unbelief, that He might have mercy UPON ALL [Jew and Gentile alike!]")

However, the understood Q in this SECTION (chpts 9-11) is, "what of the promises made to ISRAEL (now)?? [where are they??]"

... and that God could call the Gentiles if He so willed! [not just (their idea, at the time) "Israel ONLY"]... and He did (so will it!)



[my point is/has been: let's not USURP (from Israel) that which is rightly theirs, as those who like to INSERT themselves (or "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") into passages speaking (instead) OF ISRAEL in particular (or at least, the believing remnant of them, FOLLOWING "our Rapture")]

There are so many rabbit trails in your post I cannot address them all. I can address the false doctrine of the rapture once again.

In Luke 17 we read Jesus telling his disciples that when He is revealed a situation would arise where certain persons would be 'taken' and others left upon the earth.

In Matthew 24, Jesus speaks of false prophets declaring a false location for the messiah. Jesus uses the same phrase when He speaks of what will happen to them.

In both instances the echo of an unpleasant destiny is repeated.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”

The word carcass refers to dead bodies and the word vulture or eagle refers to a bird that feasts on carrion. In other words, those who are 'taken' will experience the Second Death. This in no way suggests or implies that heaven is their destination. They are destroyed. They are DAMNED.

Post-Protestant doctrine has embraced the five hundred year old Roman Catholic assertion of a divine rescue. They totally ignore the Biblical principle that God goes WITH His people thru trouble. He NEVER extracts them from it as rapture believers assert. Thus the Bible is totally ignored. Doctrine is substituted for truth and the anti-christ system wins a victory over logic and subverts faith in the same stroke.

One can twist the Bible in many ways; to adopt false doctrine denying the mercy of God, to believe Jews are rejected from God's mercy, to deny that those who believe in Christ become Jews. Church membership does not save, yet there isn't one church in the post-protestant world that supports that idea. Members bring in money and THAT is the motivation for Vegas style church services, not spiritual edification.

If people can be persuaded they don't have to suffer for Christ and be raptured out before things become dicey, they'll buy it and pay handsomely for the fantasy.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

Well, that's just weird that you are saying this to me, because, IF you have read *my posts* carefully, *I* have NEVER suggested such a thing.

I've pointed out time and again... "the olive tree" does not represent "salvation" (or "Christ" or "eternal life" etc), for example;

..whereas (for example) both Calvinism and Arminianism misinterpret Romans 9-11, the Arminianists by keeping the entire CONTEXT to be about "individual salvation" (thus how they come up with their FAULTY "lose-your-salvation" doctrine), and the Calvinist by CHANGING the context mid-stream, going from [Subject of] "individual salvation" (in their view) to then being about "nations" (thereby missing the consistent CONTEXT).



I am always pointing out Rom11:2 - "God hath not cast away His people which He fore-knew ['to know before,' i.e. in OT times, speaking OF ISRAEL, here]."
(Not to mention pointing out v.32, the summation, "For God hath concluded them ALL [Jew and Gentile ALIKE] in unbelief, that He might have mercy UPON ALL [Jew and Gentile alike!]")

However, the understood Q in this SECTION (chpts 9-11) is, "what of the promises made to ISRAEL (now)?? [where are they??]"

... and that God could call the Gentiles if He so willed! [not just (their idea, at the time) "Israel ONLY"]... and He did (so will it!)



[my point is/has been: let's not USURP (from Israel) that which is rightly theirs, as those who like to INSERT themselves (or "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") into passages speaking (instead) OF ISRAEL in particular (or at least, the believing remnant of them, FOLLOWING "our Rapture")]

 

[ChoirLoft]

DivineWaterMark wrote:
However, the understood Q in this SECTION (chpts 9-11) is, "what of the promises made to ISRAEL (now)?? [where are they??]"

... and that God could call the Gentiles if He so willed! [not just (their idea, at the time) "Israel ONLY"]... and He did (so will it!)

This is evidence of the false doctrine of Replacement Theology, which denies Jews as THE PEOPLE of God - only. The church is NOT a replacement for Israel and it isn't anointed to save Jews.

According to the Bible, those who are saved become Jews. All those who are not saved are destroyed in the Second Death.

There is no spiritual universal church to save us all because the church is a gathering of believers, all of whom are spiritually adopted as Jews. It is true that all humans are sinners, but it is not true that Israel has disappeared or somehow become invisible.

The remnant of Israel, meaning Jews, has always been present even unto Eretz Israel itself (the land of Israel).

From the third century onward it has been the devoted purpose of the church (Roman and then Protestant) to falsely declare its own authority and special privilege before God and man. Thus the CHURCH has been the greatest persecutor of Jews in history. No other system, including Islam, has drawn so much sainted blood to support its false doctrine and demonic system.

The church is the bovine excrement of history, not a substitute for Israel.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There are so many rabbit trails in your post I cannot address them all. I can address the false doctrine of the rapture once again.

In Luke 17 we read Jesus telling his disciples that when He is revealed a situation would arise where certain persons would be 'taken' and others left upon the earth.

In Matthew 24, Jesus speaks of false prophets declaring a false location for the messiah. Jesus uses the same phrase when He speaks of what will happen to them.

In both instances the echo of an unpleasant destiny is repeated.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”

The word carcass refers to dead bodies and the word vulture or eagle refers to a bird that feasts on carrion. In other words, those who are 'taken' will experience the Second Death. This in no way suggests or implies that heaven is their destination. They are destroyed. They are DAMNED.

Correct!

I've never said otherwise (on this passage).

I am always pointing out that those (in this context) who are "taken" are "taken away in JUDGMENT" (just as in Noah's day), and those who are "left" are "left to ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children]" (just as in Noah's day); Comparing this passage with both Genesis 9:1 and Dan2:35c ("FILL/FILLED the [whole] earth").

But this is NOT what takes place immediately following "our Rapture". (It is not a "Rapture" CONTEXT)

Post-Protestant doctrine has embraced the five hundred year old Roman Catholic assertion of a divine rescue. They totally ignore the Biblical principle that God goes WITH His people thru trouble. He NEVER extracts them from it as rapture believers assert. Thus the Bible is totally ignored. Doctrine is substituted for truth and the anti-christ system wins a victory over logic and subverts faith in the same stroke.

Do you believe there will be a "Rapture [/caught up/-away / SNATCH / harpazo / harpagēsometha " at all?

One can twist the Bible in many ways; to adopt false doctrine denying the mercy of God, to believe Jews are rejected from God's mercy, to deny that those who believe in Christ become Jews. Church membership does not save, yet there isn't one church in the post-protestant world that supports that idea. Members bring in money and THAT is the motivation for Vegas style church services, not spiritual edification.

If people can be persuaded they don't have to suffer for Christ and be raptured out before things become dicey, they'll buy it and pay handsomely for the fantasy.

The Church which is His body has suffered "tribulations and persecutions" all throughout its entire existence upon the earth, since the first century (see 2Th1:4 for example, as well as 2Tim3:12 "ALL" ), we are not awaiting a future, specific, limited [7-yr] tribulation period in order to experience it!! (that is not its purpose!)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

According to the Bible, those who are saved become Jews.

No.

That is a misunderstanding of what Paul is addressing in Romans 2:28-29 (a very common misunderstanding).

"But he is a Jew, which IS ONE *inwardly*" is speaking ONLY of Jews (it is not saying that Gentiles who come to faith BECOME "Jews". No.)

One must track with Paul's outline, here:

--where he has been covering "Gentiles" from 1:8-1:32 (except for vv.19-21 where he covers each);
--a transition section from 2:1-2:16;
--then covering the "Jews" from 2:17-3:20 (where we find our verse under discussion, 2:28-29);
--then finally from 3:21 forward covers the fact that "ALL [Jews and Gentiles alike] have sinned and come short..."




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See also : The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament (middletownbiblechurch.org)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Post-Protestant doctrine has embraced the five hundred year old Roman Catholic assertion of a divine rescue. They totally ignore the Biblical principle that God goes WITH His people thru trouble. He NEVER extracts them from it as rapture believers assert.

From what I understand, Roman Catholic does not assert "Rapture" doctrine (but more akin to Amillennialism).



"Trouble" (and even as far as martyrdom, for some) has been experienced by "the Church which is His body" ALL THROUGHOUT ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE on the earth since the first century (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]). We are NOT awaiting the 7-yr period IN ORDER to EXPERIENCE it! It could happen to you or to me at any moment. (That has nothing to do with "rapture timing" [or its purpose])


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And as I've said in other old posts, the word "ekpheugo [FLEE OUT OF]" where used (Lk21:36 and 1Thess5:2-3) are BOTH referring to what occurs AFTER "our Rapture" (IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs); these are not "Rapture" verses/contexts.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The example of "as the days of Noah" (Matt24/Lk17) is speaking of those who are IN the trib (contexts: FOLLOWING "our Rapture"); IOW, Noah and crew is a picture of those IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs (those who will "heed God's Word" [not those who will NOT])... but is NOT a picture of "the Church which is His body" (ENOCH--"ONE MAN"--that is, who pictures US (as "ONE BODY")--taken out PRIOR TO the flood judgment unfolding upon the earth).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

When the "three men" Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego fell into the BLAZING FIERY FURNACE, where was Daniel??

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here's another post I'd made in a different thread, about the issue of "Elijah's Letter" coming to the recipient AFTER Elijah had been taken UP (thus skeptics saying he was in fact NOT actually taken up, just relocated elsewhere on the earth)... my response:

[quoting old post]

Regarding the letter from Elijah... ("there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou...")

... this is exactly what I've been pointing out with regard to Paul, and simply re-inforces the very point I've been drawing attention to, in many of my past posts.

IOW, this [incident / circumstances re: the letter (and the TIMING issues of it)] reminds me precisely of what Paul is doing in 2Th [and even parts of 1Th]... he writes of things which he knows will take place AFTER our Rapture [as if he knew! (uh, yes, that is what "prophets" do! [I should say, "did"] --note the specific phrase in the epistles "apostles and prophets" which phrase, written in this order, ALWAYS refers to the NT prophets and apostles )]... so here is a commentary talking about the matter of the letter from Elijah and its timing issues (paralleling the point I've been making re: the very thing Paul is conveying also!)

[quoting Gaebelein - 2Chron21; taken from BibleHub]

"3. Decline and Apostasy under Jehoram, Ahaziah and Athaliah
CHAPTER 21 The Reign of Jehoram
[...]
"The writing which came to Jehoram from the prophet Elijah is interesting and presents some difficulties. Elijah had been translated a number of years before. To solve the difficulty some say that the name Elijah should be Elisha, who was then living and ministering in connection with Samaria. There is no need of doing this. It does not say that Elijah sent that writing, but it says:
“There came a writing from Elijah the prophet.” Elijah knew Jehoshaphat and he knew his son Jehoram, who was for several years the co-regent of his father. The Lord showed him beforehand the evil course Jehoram would take, and how he would follow the wicked ways of Ahab, Elijah knew so well. Then he received the message exposing the wickedness of Jehoram, “like to the whoredoms of Ahab,” and announcing the judgment to come upon Jehoram. This message was probably intrusted by Elijah to Elisha, and when the proper moment had come this man of God delivered the writing to Jehoram, telling him at the same time that it was from Elijah."

[end quoting Gaebelein]


Regarding the letter from Elijah... "there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou..."

... this is exactly what I've been pointing out with regard to Paul (except, in the case of Paul... he refers to things which would occur FAR FUTURE to his "death" even, though he's not making that point here... I'm just pointing out how he's speaking of things FAR FUTURE to himself, and even FUTURE to "our Rapture" event, AS THOUGH HE SOMEHOW "KNOWS"! [umhmmm... Recall when he uses the term "BY THE WORD OF THE LORD" ...]

... and who also writes of the two distinct/opposite "beliefs [/responses]" people will come to in that [future] time-period (that is, in "the DOTL/IN THAT DAY" time-period [same] of judgments unfolding upon the earth [commonly called the Trib]... things like, "and THEY shall not escape [G1628--same Greek word as is used in Lk21:36--not a "Rapture" verse, but an "in order that... ye may [actively] FLEE OUT OF G1628 [each and every thing coming upon the earth DURING the unfolding of it]" verse, meaning DURING the trib yrs... )

Getting back to Thess, how is it that Paul grasps what IS TO TAKE PLACE [FUTURE--and even future to "our Rapture" event]?? And GUESS WHAT... he even alludes to the fact that unlike the ones in 2Th2:10-12 who won't believe the truth [but God sends to them a working of delusion], in that time-period, OTHERS [at 'the other bookend' of his OVERALL CONTEXT] are said OF THEM [distinct from those in vv.10-12 chpt 2] that these will "[and to be admired/marveled at] in all those having believed, because was believed 'the testimony of us to you' IN THAT DAY" [this is not speaking of the Thessalonians themselves, but that FUTURE group of ppl existing on the earth FOLLOWING "our Rapture" who will come to faith, i.e. BELIEVING what Paul and the NT apostles and prophets have said [you could say, "the LETTER they have WRITTEN" aka "the testimony of us to you"--but they [i.e. Trib saints] come to believe it FOLLOWING "our Rapture," that is "IN THAT DAY [i.e. in "the DOTL [time-period of judgments unfolding upon the earth, i.e. in the 'IN THE NIGHT' aspect OF it]"] (NOT speaking here [/B]of the Thessalonians [or any member of "the Church which is His body"] believing it [in the] NOW ['in this present age [singular]']... no.)]);

See the parallel between this (what Paul does) and the letter of Elijah?

The text in 2 Chron 21 does NOT say, "so Elijah [then (in the 5-6-yrs-later setting)] sat down and composed a letter to be sent to them...". No.

In neither case [of what I am pointing out] were the letters themselves "written" at the SAME time-frame [generally] as the time [that the texts say] when the recipients had [or will have] received [received/ read / heard] it.


The general mis-understanding that is so commonly circulated out there (re: 'the Day of the Lord' and what all it entails [time-wise]), is due in part from not grasping that the phrases "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" are speaking of the SAME period-of-time when used in the SAME CONTEXTS (as they are also here in the CONTEXT of 2Th1 & 2, together).

But Paul is actually conveying that very same thing (as Elijah's "letter" and its "timing issue").


[end quoting old post]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The saints beheaded were the 1st century Christians:

Mat 10:17-18 And, take ye heed of men, for they will give you up to Sanhedrins, and in their synagogues they will scourge you, and before governors and kings ye shall be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the nations.

John 16:1-2 These things I have spoken to you, that ye may not be stumbled, out of the synagogues they will put you; but an hour doth come, that every one who hath killed you, may think to offer service unto God

There's no doubt that the events surrounding 70ad were brutal for them, in fact, Jesus addressed that very thing in the following passages:

--Lk19:41-44 (what He had SAID on the very day that the 69 Weeks were concluded, ON Palm Sunday... just before the Cross later that same week)

--Matt22:7 - "7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."

--Lk21:12-24 (in the ONLY part of the Olivet Discourse about the 70ad events),
"12 But before all these things [that is, BEFORE ALL "the beginning of birth pangs" described in vv.8-11!!], they will lay their hands upon you, and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors on account of My name. 13 It will result to you for a testimony. 14 Settle therefore in your minds not to premeditate to make a defense. 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all those opposing you will not be able to resist nor to reply to.

16 And you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put to death some from among you. 17 And you will be hated by all because of My name. 18 And no, not a hair of your head should perish. 19 By your patient endurance, you will gain your souls.

The Destruction of Jerusalem
(Matthew 24:15-25; Mark 13:14-23)

20 And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by encampments, then know that her desolation has drawn near. 21 Then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not enter into her. 22 For these are the days of avenging, to fulfill all things having been written.

23 But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days. For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the TIMES of the Gentiles are fulfilled. [note: "the TIMES of the Gentiles" pertains to "Gentile domination over Israel," and which started in 606/605bc, pertains to Neb's "dream/statue/image" with Neb as "head of gold," and which will not CONCLUDE until Christ's Second Coming to the earth, per Rev11:2--and which is NOT the equivalent of "the Church age," nor of the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]" which is distinct)

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The above passages (Lk21:12-24a "led away captive into all the nations") tell what takes place "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth PANGS... but Matthew's account (and Mark's) tell what FOLLOW "the beginning of birth PANGS" (and THAT is "far-future" to when written). Paul mentions the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR (parallel Matt24:4/Mk13:5)]," i.e. what will "KICK OFF" that future time period we commonly call "the [7-yr-] tribulation period, and what happens "FIRST" in relation [SEQUENTIALLY] to IT.


Because of this SEQUENCE issue, there are TWO *distinct* "SEE-then-FLEEs"... one in the 70ad events, one in the future Trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture").