Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[Dino246]

Jesus Christ TOLD it to them Himself!

The Bible is the complete Word of God.

The Holy Bible is the complete written Word of God in the sense that it contains everything that God wants us to know about Him but not necessarily everything that He is or every detail about Him. Everything that God wants us to know about Him can be found in the 66 books of the Holy Bible. ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17)

It's not clear whether you are agreeing or disagreeing. I would clarify though: the Bible is not a record of all of God's communication with every human who ever lived. That's where the extreme cessationists get it wrong; they must have one-way conversations with God, because in their view, God cannot communicate outside of Scripture. Even the nudge to read a particular passage of Scripture is itself communication outside of Scripture! How can the Holy Spirit even confirm that we are children of God when that's an internal witness and not within Scripture?

 

[Dino246]

However.....you have disproved nothing Biblically now have you.

You gave your opinion and what you thought but you have not Biblically disproved one single thing I have said.

"Saying" something is untrue is nothing more than an opinion.

What I have done is to state the EXACT words found in Mark and Matthew concerning the ELEVEN and shown "grammatically" why you and me are not able to perform the Sign Gifts as they were only given to the ELEVEN exactly and literally what the Scriptures.

Except... you didn't. I showed you why your interpretation was incorrect. Here's the Scripture, with emphasis added:

Mark 16:14-17a Later He appeared to the eleven disciples themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reprimanded them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen from the dead. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed:

The phrase, "the one who has believed..." in verse 16 is the nearest antecedent to the phrase, "those who have believed" in verse 17. Therefore, according to the grammatical reasoning you provided, the gifts are not limited to the Eleven. Jesus reprimanded them for their unbelief!

If I haven't proven anything "biblically", then neither have you.

 

[Dino246]

In the New Test Greek..........to "Prophesy" means literally to TEACH, Tell Forth! It does not mean to tell the future.

Agabus didn't "teach"; he foretold. It is ridiculous to claim a meaning on the basis of lexical context that clearly contradicts the immediate context of the word as used in Scripture!

 

[Dino246]

Good work for His kingdom brother Dino

Thanks.

 

[Scribe]

In the New Test Greek..........to "Prophesy" means literally to TEACH, Tell Forth! It does not mean to tell the future.

So do you desire the spiritual gift to prophecy?

 

[Rosemaryx]

Thank you! That was a very nice thing to say. My arthritis in my hands gives fingers fits.

Am so sorry to hear that...
One day when we are home with our LORD , we will never suffer again Amen...
...xox...

 

[presidente]

In the New Test Greek..........to "Prophesy" means literally to TEACH, Tell Forth! It does not mean to tell the future.

This is not accurate. Those are 2 gifts in Rome. 12. In I Cor. 14:30, prophecy is revelatory.

I do not agree with you brother. What I gave to you was the Greek grammar. If you choose to reject accepted Greek interlinears and and Grammatical expostitions...OK with me. That does not change them at all.

What I have posted is what comes from much time and study on a subject I can see that you are dug in on.

That is fine with me. As I said.......I do not wish to continue with you on this so you have a great day and stay safe and we will live in disagreement but still working for the cause of Christ in our separate ways.

Hi Major, I gave you specific examples from Greek grammar and a quote from a detailed theological journal that debuked your assertions and assertions in whatever commentaries you were using. Commentaries can contain errors. If there are solid examples that show usage contrary to what commentators assert about Greek grammar, that is evidence that the commentator is wrong.

You have not even addressed the evidence of Greek grammar I posted. Did you bother to look it up.

 

[awelight]

I re-read the first sentence of your post, and I stand by my post. Personal revelation outside of Scripture is not inherently dangerous. It is no more dangerous than listening to a sermon or reading a topical book by a Christian author; it must be tested against Scripture. However, God speaks to His children about everyday concerns and subjects that Scripture doesn't directly address; the key is knowing what Scripture does say so that you know whether the direction you receive is consistent with it.

You can go down that road if you wish -- ultimately you are the one responsible for your beliefs and actions before God. I however, will not follow that type of teaching or belief system.

 

[awelight]

It was, but sorry if I was harsh.



From my reading, this does not appear to be accurate. Are these third class conditionals outside of the realm of possiblity?

Romans 7:2
Romans 7:2, KJV: "For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband."

No woman's husband could ever possibly die?

Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Is it impossible that 'we' should hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end? Is the author of Hebrews indicating that he is convinced that he and his readers would be damned?

Here is a quote from Grace Theology Journal that disagrees with you. <http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/New_Testament_Greek/Text/Boyer-ThirdCond-GTJ.htm>


I am not a Greek scholar, but I believe within a matter of posts, I have stumbled upon yet another oft-repeated 'Greek myth', an overgeneralization about the Greek language that does not hold true on closer examination.

Faith and mountains are real things. It is possible to give all to the poor or to give one's body to be burned. So we should be open to the possibility that someone might speak with tongues of angels. What we cannot definitively say is that it is impossible to speak in the tongues of angels because of the third class conditional.

You misunderstand the conditional aspect of the sentence construction. In your example, "if the husband be dead" -- this conditional setting would be understood as: I am not saying he is dead already but when he dies. Therefore, the husband being dead already fits the conditional aspect of "improbability or uncertainty".

In your next example: " if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;" This conditional particle establishes a mood of "uncertainty" as to one holding to the end the same confidence as that one had in the beginning. As in the old gospel song, "Amazing Grace", nothing is more confident and beautiful, than "the hour I first believed". A believer's zeal, is never greater than in the first few months of their conversion.

As to your conclusion about the "Koine Greek" (Not the Greek language, as the modern Greek will not serve one well on discussing the Koine Greek. Therefore, modern Greek grammarian rules must be thrown out are serious damage can be done to Scripture translation and interpretation.) There is no mythos in the original language of the New Testament. Any misunderstanding of what the language says is in the mind of men, just as it is with understanding the Scriptures true message. There is no confusion in the mind of God, as you well know.

 

[presidente]

You misunderstand the conditional aspect of the sentence construction. In your example, "if the husband be dead" -- this conditional setting would be understood as: I am not saying he is dead already but when he dies. Therefore, the husband being dead already fits the conditional aspect of "improbability or uncertainty".

In your next example: " if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;" This conditional particle establishes a mood of "uncertainty" as to one holding to the end the same confidence as that one had in the beginning. As in the old gospel song, "Amazing Grace", nothing is more confident and beautiful, than "the hour I first believed". A believer's zeal, is never greater than in the first few months of their conversion.

As to your conclusion about the "Koine Greek" (Not the Greek language, as the modern Greek will not serve one well on discussing the Koine Greek. Therefore, modern Greek grammarian rules must be thrown out are serious damage can be done to Scripture translation and interpretation.) There is no mythos in the original language of the New Testament. Any misunderstanding of what the language says is in the mind of men, just as it is with understanding the Scriptures true message. There is no confusion in the mind of God, as you well know.

You have no comment about the th r original journal's treatment t of your grammatical assertions?

 

[awelight]

Where does the Bible teach us to have this fear of personal revelation? We need revelation to know the Father:
Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mormon revelation does not line up with what has been revealed. Genuine revelation is in line with what the Bible teaches. From reading I Corinthians 14, we can surmise that there must have been numerous revelations about the secrets of men's hearts in the first century. Agabus signified that there would be a famine. These types of things are not inherently at odds with scripture.

The thing is, the Bible does not teach that God speaks exclusively through scripture, and that type of thinking is not really in line with what the New Testament actually teaches. Did you claim to have received a direct, personal, extrabiblical revelation from God that God only speaks outside of scripture that overturns the teaching of scripture on spiritual gifts?

Your conclusion is your own and I am not going there.

The Bible clearly teaches that many personal revelations were given to the Prophets and writers of Scripture, so that, the Word of God which is given to the Saints could be fully realized and completed. There is no more mention of these type of revelations until the days of the coming Kingdom. Unless of course, you are an A-millennialist and believe we are presently living in the Kingdom.

 

[presidente]

Jesus Christ TOLD it to them Himself!

The Bible is the complete Word of God.

The Holy Bible is the complete written Word of God in the sense that it contains everything that God wants us to know about Him but not necessarily everything that He is or every detail about Him. Everything that God wants us to know about Him can be found in the 66 books of the Holy Bible. ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17)

The verse you cited does not support the point you make.

2 Timothy 3 was written during a time we would both agree prophecy was active.

Is it your position that there is nothing we need to know written after II Timothy 4 or the book of Revelation? Do we not need those scriptures?

 

[presidente]

Your conclusion is your own and I am not going there.

The Bible clearly teaches that many personal revelations were given to the Prophets and writers of Scripture, so that, the Word of God which is given to the Saints could be fully realized and completed. There is no more mention of these type of revelations until the days of the coming Kingdom. Unless of course, you are an A-millennialist and believe we are presently living in the Kingdom.

Where does the Bible say these things are for a coming kingdom?

 

[presidente]

You misunderstand the conditional aspect of the sentence construction. In your example, "if the husband be dead" -- this conditional setting would be understood as: I am not saying he is dead already but when he dies. Therefore, the husband being dead already fits the conditional aspect of "improbability or uncertainty".

And this is clearly not an impossible scenario. This is evidence against your point of view.

In your next example: " if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;" This conditional particle establishes a mood of "uncertainty" as to one holding to the end the same confidence as that one had in the beginning. As in the old gospel song, "Amazing Grace", nothing is more confident and beautiful, than "the hour I first believed". A believer's zeal, is never greater than in the first few months of their conversion.

Would you agree the author of Hebrews is not saying they will not hold steadfast? He is presenting this as a conditional, not something impossible or even unlikely. This debunks your argument about the use of the third conditional in I Cor. 13:1.

As to your conclusion about the "Koine Greek" (Not the Greek language, as the modern Greek will not serve one well on discussing the Koine Greek. Therefore, modern Greek grammarian rules must be thrown out are serious damage can be done to Scripture translation and interpretation.) There is no mythos in the original language of the New Testament. Any misunderstanding of what the language says is in the mind of men, just as it is with understanding the Scriptures true message. There is no confusion in the mind of God, as you well know.

Red herring. Who brought up modern Greek? Any comments on the theological journal's statement against your stance on the third conditional?

 

[awelight]

Where does the Bible say these things are for a coming kingdom?

I am not discussing Biblical doctrine in such a way as to prove my point and make myself a winner of the debate, as you seem to be willing to do. I have stated my case and am willing to discuss Scripture with one who truly desires to come to the Truth of Scripture. But for those who have an unwavering belief in a Doctrine, whether it be you or I, there is little point in a discussion. I don't believe in trying to ram my beliefs down someone elses throat. I say what I say for those who can receive them.

By the way, on the grammar issue.... I read what the seminary said.... have little use for modern day seminaries, they are not Biblical and have no Biblical authorization. Men of God are not churned out like some kind of other forms of education and almost all of the seminaries of today are full of liberals teaching subjectivism over and against objectivism.

But as to the Koine Greek, I noticed in the seminary discussion, you gave as an example, they kept referencing men of the "Classical Greek". As I said earlier, this is a huge mistake. I prefer men like Thayer on the Koine Greek.

Additionally, I noticed you ignored my explanation to further clarify this third class condition and the way it should be understood. Obviously, this is because it does not fit your interpretation. Rather than letting the language speak truth and this establishing ones interpretation, you attempt to make the text say what you want it to say. Something that every single believer must guard against doing and this includes myself.

 

[Dino246]

You can go down that road if you wish -- ultimately you are the one responsible for your beliefs and actions before God. I however, will not follow that type of teaching or belief system.

"That type of teaching or belief system"... is what, exactly?

 

[Major]

The verse you cited does not support the point you make.

2 Timothy 3 was written during a time we would both agree prophecy was active.

Is it your position that there is nothing we need to know written after II Timothy 4 or the book of Revelation? Do we not need those scriptures?

Did I say that we do not need any Scriptures????

My position is that God has given us all there is we need to know in His Written Word.

We need to understand EVERYTHING we can about what He has written IN HIS WORD but there is nothing to be added to what is already in His Word including the Revelation.

We need to, we must and are told to READ IT, Love and to Live and we are warned to NOT ADD ANYTHING TO IT.

 

[Major]

I am not discussing Biblical doctrine in such a way as to prove my point and make myself a winner of the debate, as you seem to be willing to do. I have stated my case and am willing to discuss Scripture with one who truly desires to come to the Truth of Scripture. But for those who have an unwavering belief in a Doctrine, whether it be you or I, there is little point in a discussion. I don't believe in trying to ram my beliefs down someone elses throat. I say what I say for those who can receive them.

By the way, on the grammar issue.... I read what the seminary said.... have little use for modern day seminaries, they are not Biblical and have no Biblical authorization. Men of God are not churned out like some kind of other forms of education and almost all of the seminaries of today are full of liberals teaching subjectivism over and against objectivism.

But as to the Koine Greek, I noticed in the seminary discussion, you gave as an example, they kept referencing men of the "Classical Greek". As I said earlier, this is a huge mistake. I prefer men like Thayer on the Koine Greek.

Additionally, I noticed you ignored my explanation to further clarify this third class condition and the way it should be understood. Obviously, this is because it does not fit your interpretation. Rather than letting the language speak truth and this establishing ones interpretation, you attempt to make the text say what you want it to say. Something that every single believer must guard against doing and this includes myself.

I love your responce......!!!

 

[notuptome]

Tell that to Isaiah, Amos, and Agabus. Tell it to Philip's daughters. Tell it to the Corinthians. Tell it to Jesus.

Little smart aleck. You are not in apostolic times. The NT is complete and there are no prophets sent from God to deliver new revelation.

I will have the opportunity to speak with Isaiah, Amos and Agabus, will you?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Major]

This is not accurate. Those are 2 gifts in Rome. 12. In I Cor. 14:30, prophecy is revelatory.

Hi Major, I gave you specific examples from Greek grammar and a quote from a detailed theological journal that debuked your assertions and assertions in whatever commentaries you were using. Commentaries can contain errors. If there are solid examples that show usage contrary to what commentators assert about Greek grammar, that is evidence that the commentator is wrong.

You have not even addressed the evidence of Greek grammar I posted. Did you bother to look it up.

You are incorrect my friend. My commentaries are the KJV of the Bible.

A Greek and Hebrew concordance is not a commentary at all.

My post of the Correct Greek explination of Mark 16:14-17 stands as posted. If you do not want to accept it that is OK with me but you can not use the idea that what I posted was in some way "debunked" by anything you said.