Peter before he received the Holy Ghost...or Peter after he received the Holy Ghost

[throughfaith]

The grammar got you brother. There is no problem for me, in my closet, praying alone, to say "OUR Father". The Assembly hall burnt down last night, one of the Elders was found in adultery and a false teacher caused unrest in the Assembly. Shall I not pray "OUR Father . ?" A great famine was in Jerusalem, and the Church needed help. I think "OUR Father ... ", is very appropriate.

I think its odd to individually pray ' our ' especially after the cross . I see churches morbidly reciting this like a mantra ..especially the Catholic Church.

 

[throughfaith]

The grammar got you brother. There is no problem for me, in my closet, praying alone, to say "OUR Father". The Assembly hall burnt down last night, one of the Elders was found in adultery and a false teacher caused unrest in the Assembly. Shall I not pray "OUR Father . ?" A great famine was in Jerusalem, and the Church needed help. I think "OUR Father ... ", is very appropriate.

 

[Corban]

You don't agree with Hebrews 9:16?

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

A strange statement. We were discussing the Biblical writings from Matthew to Revelation, not the New Covenant promised to Israel in "that day".

 

[Guojing]

A strange statement. We were discussing the Biblical writings from Matthew to Revelation, not the New Covenant promised to Israel in "that day".

There is a difference between New Testament and New Covenant.

Anyway, you were answering the question "When does the new testament begin" right?

 

[throughfaith]

You are entitled to fire question after question as an answer. But so am I. I will answer you anon about John 7:39 (I have done so in an earlier posting but I'll do it again) if you answer me this. Our Lord Jesus was slain in around 30 AD! How come scripture says that He was slain "from the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8)?

When you have thought about that, and answered appropriately, you can think about this. When was our Lord Jesus glorified?

4 "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:4-5)

Was He glorified;

1. before the world began?
2. during His ministry before death?
3. in resurrection?
4. in His sitting down at the right hand of God in His throne?
5. at His coronation in Revelation 4 and 5?
6. when the kingdoms of the world became His (Dan.7:13-14; Rev:11)?

The questions recognize and admit your point in John.7:39.

 

[throughfaith]

You are entitled to fire question after question as an answer. But so am I. I will answer you anon about John 7:39 (I have done so in an earlier posting but I'll do it again) if you answer me this. Our Lord Jesus was slain in around 30 AD! How come scripture says that He was slain "from the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8)?

When you have thought about that, and answered appropriately, you can think about this. When was our Lord Jesus glorified?

4 "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:4-5)

Was He glorified;

1. before the world began?
2. during His ministry before death?
3. in resurrection?
4. in His sitting down at the right hand of God in His throne?
5. at His coronation in Revelation 4 and 5?
6. when the kingdoms of the world became His (Dan.7:13-14; Rev:11)?

The questions recognize and admit your point in John.7:39.

Gen 3 .15 answers Rev 13 .8 . Of course not if you read translations such as the ESV .

 

[throughfaith]

Gen 3 .15 answers Rev 13 .8 . Of course not if you read translations such as the ESV .

I don't believe Jesus or anyone was glorified before his resurrection.

37¶In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified .)

 

[Gardenias]

I have some ponderings myself.
1.Eventhough the disciples followed Jesus were they saved or was it after his death?
2.The Spirit ( who is also God) moved upon many people in the old testament but few were FILLED with the Spirit,was the filling saved for after salvation came to the world by Jesus and for what purpose except empowerment in our ministry? Acts1:8
3.salvation a gift, Holy Ghost as gift? Acts 2:38
4. Holy Spirit, the begining of salvation for it is he that brings a spirit of conviction of sin against a non believer
5. I like your question Keby, how can we tell if the Holy Ghost is in someone? Mark 16:17, Acts 3:3/4;19:6 1Cor.12:28
6. If tongues is the initial sign of a believer receiving the Holy Ghost indwelling would this not be our marker?

 

[Corban]

I think its odd to individually pray ' our ' especially after the cross . I see churches morbidly reciting this like a mantra ..especially the Catholic Church.

We'll ... you're entitled to think anything. But have you considered that even if you say "Father", or "Abba", He is OUR Father by default. Since you are obliged to pray in the Name of Jesus when addressing the Father, you have already mentioned TWO brothers - you and Christ.
Romans 8:29; "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"

But probably the best reason to pray to the Father of every Christian as "OUR" is, that our Lord Jesus commanded this.
Matthew 5:1 - 6:9
1 ".... his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
...
Matthew 6
5 "And when thou prayest, ...
6 But thou, when thou prayest, ...
7 But when ye pray, ...
8 ...
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."

Chapter 6:5-9 are still part of the discourse started in 5:1-2 - "HIS DISCIPLES". The words are emphatic.

If you're still not sure, get a Concordance and see how many times it says, "Pray for US".

 

[Corban]

There is a difference between New Testament and New Covenant.

Anyway, you were answering the question "When does the new testament begin" right?

Methinks you are looking for a dispute. Yes, the brother asked, in the context of, "when the Holy Spirit was given". He did not balk at my answer, indicating that he so understood it. I even qualified my answer by saying that the title, "New Testament" was man made. I did not ever allude to Jeremiah 31:31-33.

But, pray, tell me, now that you have broached the subject, WHEN was the New Covenant given to Israel? When was "that day"? Where is the House of Israel and the House of Judah whose fathers came out of Egypt? And if a New Covenant has been given, why do Israel still stay dispersed and persecuted under the terms of the First?

 

[throughfaith]

We'll ... you're entitled to think anything. But have you considered that even if you say "Father", or "Abba", He is OUR Father by default. Since you are obliged to pray in the Name of Jesus when addressing the Father, you have already mentioned TWO brothers - you and Christ.
Romans 8:29; "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"

But probably the best reason to pray to the Father of every Christian as "OUR" is, that our Lord Jesus commanded this.
Matthew 5:1 - 6:9
1 ".... his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
...
Matthew 6
5 "And when thou prayest, ...
6 But thou, when thou prayest, ...
7 But when ye pray, ...
8 ...
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."

Chapter 6:5-9 are still part of the discourse started in 5:1-2 - "HIS DISCIPLES". The words are emphatic.

If you're still not sure, get a Concordance and see how many times it says, "Pray for US".

I see Jesus being a Jew speaking to jews still under the old covenant, under the law ,how else would he answer ? Its a Jewish corporate prayer ,evidence by the ' our ' . This is pre crucifixion. There are many things Jesus speaks to the disciples under the law as a jew to Jews that folks westernise or simply do not see any difference before or after the cross .

 

[throughfaith]

We'll ... you're entitled to think anything. But have you considered that even if you say "Father", or "Abba", He is OUR Father by default. Since you are obliged to pray in the Name of Jesus when addressing the Father, you have already mentioned TWO brothers - you and Christ.
Romans 8:29; "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"

But probably the best reason to pray to the Father of every Christian as "OUR" is, that our Lord Jesus commanded this.
Matthew 5:1 - 6:9
1 ".... his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
...
Matthew 6
5 "And when thou prayest, ...
6 But thou, when thou prayest, ...
7 But when ye pray, ...
8 ...
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."

Chapter 6:5-9 are still part of the discourse started in 5:1-2 - "HIS DISCIPLES". The words are emphatic.

If you're still not sure, get a Concordance and see how many times it says, "Pray for US".

//We'll ... you're entitled to think anything. But have you considered that even if you say "Father", or "Abba", He is OUR Father by default. Since you are obliged to pray in the Name of Jesus when addressing the Father, you have already mentioned TWO brothers - you and Christ.///
I don't believe this is what Jesus had in mind . Although nice try though .

 

[throughfaith]

We'll ... you're entitled to think anything. But have you considered that even if you say "Father", or "Abba", He is OUR Father by default. Since you are obliged to pray in the Name of Jesus when addressing the Father, you have already mentioned TWO brothers - you and Christ.
Romans 8:29; "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"

But probably the best reason to pray to the Father of every Christian as "OUR" is, that our Lord Jesus commanded this.
Matthew 5:1 - 6:9
1 ".... his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
...
Matthew 6
5 "And when thou prayest, ...
6 But thou, when thou prayest, ...
7 But when ye pray, ...
8 ...
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."

Chapter 6:5-9 are still part of the discourse started in 5:1-2 - "HIS DISCIPLES". The words are emphatic.

If you're still not sure, get a Concordance and see how many times it says, "Pray for US".

After the cross the way is made open for individuals to bodily come . Prior to this , not so much. And to Israel there is of course ' our ' Father .

 

[Corban]

I see Jesus being a Jew speaking to jews still under the old covenant, under the law ,how else would he answer ? Its a Jewish corporate prayer ,evidence by the ' our ' . This is pre crucifixion. There are many things Jesus speaks to the disciples under the law as a jew to Jews that folks westernise or simply do not see any difference before or after the cross .

O.K. That's your right. I hear you. But that understanding of pre-cross and post-cross will hamper you in many things. For instance, what would have been the situation if Israel had accepted Jesus? Give me the scenario then?

 

[throughfaith]

O.K. That's your right. I hear you. But that understanding of pre-cross and post-cross will hamper you in many things. For instance, what would have been the situation if Israel had accepted Jesus? Give me the scenario then?

The kingdom would have begun . 1000 years ect .Otherwise the offer was not genuine.

 

[Corban]

The kingdom would have begun . 1000 years ect .Otherwise the offer was not genuine.

Well have you said that the offer was genuine. But how is a man to enter the Kingdom without Christ's death. You yourself divide the writings of the New Testament into pre- and post-cross. If Israel had embraced Christ, where would the sins of men go? Where would the sin of mankind go? Where would atonement be? The Lamb of God would be moot. And what blood would the New Covenant be ratified with? Your whole "post-cross" Bible would not exist.

 

[Corban]

After the cross the way is made open for individuals to bodily come . Prior to this , not so much. And to Israel there is of course ' our ' Father .

"BODILY???" I think not. Jehovah's birth is for the SPIRIT (Jn.3:6)!

 

[throughfaith]

Well have you said that the offer was genuine. But how is a man to enter the Kingdom without Christ's death. You yourself divide the writings of the New Testament into pre- and post-cross. If Israel had embraced Christ, where would the sins of men go? Where would the sin of mankind go? Where would atonement be? The Lamb of God would be moot. And what blood would the New Covenant be ratified with? Your whole "post-cross" Bible would not exist.

Of course the cross had to happen.

 

[throughfaith]

I have some ponderings myself.
1.Eventhough the disciples followed Jesus were they saved or was it after his death?
2.The Spirit ( who is also God) moved upon many people in the old testament but few were FILLED with the Spirit,was the filling saved for after salvation came to the world by Jesus and for what purpose except empowerment in our ministry? Acts1:8
3.salvation a gift, Holy Ghost as gift? Acts 2:38
4. Holy Spirit, the begining of salvation for it is he that brings a spirit of conviction of sin against a non believer
5. I like your question Keby, how can we tell if the Holy Ghost is in someone? Mark 16:17, Acts 3:3/4;19:6 1Cor.12:28
6. If tongues is the initial sign of a believer receiving the Holy Ghost indwelling would this not be our marker?

If Tongues is the marker then most Christians are lost . And those that speak tongues in other religions are saved ?

 

[Gardenias]

If Tongues is the marker then most Christians are lost . And those that speak tongues in other religions are saved ?

Im pondering.....
I cannot be anyones judge only my own!
I know for a FACT tongues IS NOT taught ,that isnt of the Spirit.
Thankfully God is the FINAL judge,my job is to love as Christ loves!
Love covers all of our misgivings against one anothers thoughts,beliefs and actions.