If a Sabbath is forced, Will you keep Sunday holy?

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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Faith that saves is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 5:1 etc..). Obedience which follows is works. You could not make it any clearer that you teach salvation by works. :(

Your argument sounds similar to this argument below in blue taken from a conversation that I had with a Roman Catholic:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments.. etc..

His argument about faith being “defined as” and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. We are saved through faith and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
But it seems to me your obsession with works results in teaching salvation without works following.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,460
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This is not SO, if that was true Satan has far more faith then we DO, and GOD would haft to save Satan to.
It is A faith that WORKS that will GET US SAVED , All you haft to do to see this is look at Abraham GOD said it Abraham done it. Abraham KEPT GOD'S COMMANDMENTS around 400 years before Moses was Born, And believe they kept them if they wanted to be SAVED
You are deceived. Satan believes in the existence of Christ, but Satan has not placed faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. We are not saved by faith and works and neither was Abraham. (Romans 4:2-6) Also, Abraham was before the law of Moses. All you talk about is keeping God’s commandments for salvation, yet nobody has perfectly obeyed God’s commandments except for Jesus Christ. You need to come down off your high horse and believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:1-4)
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
I used to have a plastic Jesus on the dash of my car. Mom had a picture of Jesus on the fridge.
Well the 10 commandments say don't make any graven images, so we can't have any.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
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e



Are you a S.D.A. , if YES how long ???

I'm unclear if you were trying to address me in this post but it seems as the same question I ask you so if it was I will answer but if not please disregard. I attended an SDA Church in Texas City Texas when I was about 12 with a friend of mine from school about 5 or 6 times he had invited me to the Royal Rangers camp outs. Then when I was in my 20's I helped them with building porch swings they were selling for a fund raiser.

Other than that I moved to Buffalo Texas and through my wife's co-workers I knew several of the members of the Branch Dividians who were in the same area at the time but I was never a member of the SDA or it's offshoots. So I have never been a member of the SDA but have been around them enough to understand how they see different things.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
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Crosses, pictures of angels, statuary of any kind, do you have these things in your home or at your church?
I used to wear a cross. I found about a dozen lost crosses or more over the course of my life, more than anyone I've ever heard of, and I am certain that this was God's way to direct my attention towards Him before I believed, and after that, to encourage me in transitional periods of my life. I am going through such a period right now, and I found a lost cross yet again a few days ago. I leave most of them in public places like bus stations, for other people to find and hopefully also consider God. Most people who own wearables or religiously themed objects in their houses don't give reverence to objects, the object serves as a reminder, it's what God did for us that is holy and not two perpendicular bars. Beside few wearables, I don't own anything else of that nature. I am much more concerned about people making fixed images of God in their heads and then bowing to these self crafted mental images as if they were God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,460
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But it seems to me your obsession with works results in teaching salvation without works following.
Typical straw man argument. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (substantiated, evidenced) by works (James 2:14-24).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple!
 
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
I'm not asking you about only circumcision so I bold'ed the words the law, which is referring to "the law of Moses" do you agree that the gentiles are not to follow the law given to the Hebrews as the Apostles stated in Acts 15?
The hand writings of Moses was nailed to the CROSS, the feasts, and the feast sabbaths pointed to Christ going to the Cross And ended at the CROSS,
GALATIONS 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
like this verse tells us, the sacrificial laws was added because they were breaking GOD's commandments,
so GOD give the sacrificial laws through Moses's handwriting, till JESUS was put on the cross,
Now we do not keep them , but they are our school master, to go back and see how JESUS works as our high priest in the sanctuary, How he is applying HIS BLOOD to our sins, even if we sin again, We can go back to HIM and GET that sin cover also.
ol
Coll 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

GALATIONS 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.
3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.
3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
EPH
2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
God bless as GOD sees good for you, and may GOD guide you in the right paths, Sincerely William
 
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
I'm unclear if you were trying to address me in this post but it seems as the same question I ask you so if it was I will answer but if not please disregard. I attended an SDA Church in Texas City Texas when I was about 12 with a friend of mine from school about 5 or 6 times he had invited me to the Royal Rangers camp outs. Then when I was in my 20's I helped them with building porch swings they were selling for a fund raiser.

Other than that I moved to Buffalo Texas and through my wife's co-workers I knew several of the members of the Branch Dividians who were in the same area at the time but I was never a member of the SDA or it's offshoots. So I have never been a member of the SDA but have been around them enough to understand how they see different things.
My TESTIMONY
I was born and raised in Knoxville Tenn, I was raised in a Baptist faith . I prayed for
knowledge One night, And the
next morning I went to
the flea market, looking for things about the Bible and DVD's , and heard some people
talking about the Bible , it
sounded good , so I
started listening to them talking , And when they saw that I was listening to them, they
started talking to me ,They
gave me some DVD's on
the Bible , And told me about the Sabbath being Saturday , And not Sunday, I told them
I'd haft to go check on that ,
And I went Home and
study on it, And I found out the Sabbath is Saturday, And not Sunday , And I found out
that the BIBLE tells US in
HEBREWS 4:8-12, That
JESUS didn't change the day, That the Sabbath still remains. I found out that it wasn't
for the Jews, JESUS says that
the Sabbath was made
for Man, And the Sabbath go's all the way back to Creation, Where GOD bless it And
SANCTIFIED IT, Before there even was
A Jew, And I have
learned many other things From the D.V.D's that they give me, And I found out that the
Seventh Day Adventist teach the
BIBLE closer to what
the BIBLE says then any other Church I have ever Been to. And I became A Seventh day
Adventist, And I have learnt many
other things to, And
have really enjoyed learning to. And I believe GOD sit up that meeting to help me learn
truth, GOD bless YOU as JESUS
sees fit FOR YOU. And
guide your feet in HIS straight PATH FOR YOU.
SINCERELY William
One of MY favorite Places in the BIBLE,
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with
another, and the blood of Jesus
Christ his Son cleanseth
us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.1:9
If we confess our sins, he is
faithful and just to
forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Sincerely William
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
The hand writings of Moses was nailed to the CROSS, the feasts, and the feast sabbaths pointed to Christ going to the Cross And ended at the CROSS,
GALATIONS 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
like this verse tells us, the sacrificial laws was added because they were breaking GOD's commandments,
so GOD give the sacrificial laws through Moses's handwriting, till JESUS was put on the cross,
Now we do not keep them , but they are our school master, to go back and see how JESUS works as our high priest in the sanctuary, How he is applying HIS BLOOD to our sins, even if we sin again, We can go back to HIM and GET that sin cover also.
ol
Coll 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

GALATIONS 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.
3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.
3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
EPH
2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
God bless as GOD sees good for you, and may GOD guide you in the right paths, Sincerely William


Your still not giving an answer to what I am asking about if you agree that the gentiles were not required to follow the law as addressed in Acts 15 with an simple yes or no.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
113
I believe that turning an image into an idol or a god is what makes it graven.
When I was in preschool, a few or us were secretly going to church on our way home, we would just stay a little inside and in awe basically contemplating God as the building and its furnishings presented Him. Holy, majestic, and a bit scary. My mother soon figured out where I was going though, because I was inspired by the icons I saw there, I started drawing Jesus and the saints. That's not me as a 5 or 6yo "making a graven image to myself" there was no bowing to drawings going on nor were they considered "most venerable drawings" they maybe had its art exhibit on the fridge for a few days at best, and that was that.
 
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
Your still not giving an answer to what I am asking about if you agree that the gentiles were not required to follow the law as addressed in Acts 15 with an simple yes or no.
neither one haft to keep the laws of Moses By, Jews and Gentiles are saved the SAME, By faith we believe that JESUS Came and died for our PAST sins, so we could keep GOD's commandments and they will keep us Clean, this is for the Jews and Gentiles,
if this don't help, gives me the verses that you are talking about, and I will takes another look at it.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
My TESTIMONY
I was born and raised in Knoxville Tenn, I was raised in a Baptist faith . I prayed for
knowledge One night, And the
next morning I went to
the flea market, looking for things about the Bible and DVD's , and heard some people
talking about the Bible , it
sounded good , so I
started listening to them talking , And when they saw that I was listening to them, they
started talking to me ,They
gave me some DVD's on
the Bible , And told me about the Sabbath being Saturday , And not Sunday, I told them
I'd haft to go check on that ,
And I went Home and
study on it, And I found out the Sabbath is Saturday, And not Sunday , And I found out
that the BIBLE tells US in
HEBREWS 4:8-12, That
JESUS didn't change the day, That the Sabbath still remains. I found out that it wasn't
for the Jews, JESUS says that
the Sabbath was made
for Man, And the Sabbath go's all the way back to Creation, Where GOD bless it And
SANCTIFIED IT, Before there even was
A Jew, And I have
learned many other things From the D.V.D's that they give me, And I found out that the
Seventh Day Adventist teach the
BIBLE closer to what
the BIBLE says then any other Church I have ever Been to. And I became A Seventh day
Adventist, And I have learnt many
other things to, And
have really enjoyed learning to. And I believe GOD sit up that meeting to help me learn
truth, GOD bless YOU as JESUS
sees fit FOR YOU. And
guide your feet in HIS straight PATH FOR YOU.
SINCERELY William
One of MY favorite Places in the BIBLE,
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with
another, and the blood of Jesus
Christ his Son cleanseth
us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.1:9
If we confess our sins, he is
faithful and just to
forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Sincerely William

And it is a good thing to learn I'll give you an example from Scriptures that you quoted earlier Col 2:16-17 in that they are shadows of things coming. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/2-17.htm and from the verse prior to that https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/2-16.htm which Identifies several things as the shadow of what is coming the Sabbath.

That is when God sanctified the seventh day https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-3.htm he in the next verse https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-4.htm stated that they were the "generations of the heavens and the earth" https://biblehub.com/hebrew/8435.htm and so they are not only speaking of the beginning of the creation but the seven days are also an prophecy of the whole creation from beginning to it's end.

So six one thousand year days https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/3-8.htm (shall labor six days) and rest on the sabbath(seventh) which is the millennial(shadow of things coming)...
 
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
And it is a good thing to learn I'll give you an example from Scriptures that you quoted earlier Col 2:16-17 in that they are shadows of things coming. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/2-17.htm and from the verse prior to that https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/2-16.htm which Identifies several things as the shadow of what is coming the Sabbath.

That is when God sanctified the seventh day https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-3.htm he in the next verse https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-4.htm stated that they were the "generations of the heavens and the earth" https://biblehub.com/hebrew/8435.htm and so they are not only speaking of the beginning of the creation but the seven days are also an prophecy of the whole creation from beginning to it's end.

So six one thousand year days https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/3-8.htm (shall labor six days) and rest on the sabbath(seventh) which is the millennial(shadow of things coming)...
From what I under stand you are talking about the 7th thousand years in Heaven, 6000 years, on earth, but the the last 1000 years is in heaven ???
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
neither one haft to keep the laws of Moses By, Jews and Gentiles are saved the SAME, By faith we believe that JESUS Came and died for our PAST sins, so we could keep GOD's commandments and they will keep us Clean, this is for the Jews and Gentiles,
if this don't help, gives me the verses that you are talking about, and I will takes another look at it.

Well then if the Jews that I am asking you about in Acts 15 thought they were not suppose to be circumcised and follow the law why did James say they were "zealous of the law" in Acts 21 10 to 12 years later? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 21&version=KJV

That is James says to Paul that those Jews had heard that he was teaching that they were not to be circumcised and follow the law and ask him to his face "what is it?" about the issue and then pointed out to Paul the letter in Acts 15 given to the gentiles so he is obviously referring to the events of the counsel recorded in Acts 15.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
From what I under stand you are talking about the 7th thousand years in Heaven, 6000 years, on earth, but the the last 1000 years is in heaven ???
Yes it is an prophecy of the whole seven days from its beginning to the end the Sabbath day(seventh/Mill.) and why Isaiah 46:10 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 46:10&version=KJV is saying that he told you the end from the beginning(Genesis 2:4)... your focusing on a certain day of the week and not the actual Sabbath it is a shadow of.
 
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
neither one haft to keep the laws of Moses By, Jews and Gentiles are saved the SAME, By faith we believe that JESUS Came and died for our PAST sins, so we could keep GOD's commandments and they will keep us Clean, this is for the Jews and Gentiles,
if this don't help, gives me the verses that you are talking about, and I will takes another look at it.
No But the JEWS don't haft to ether, But they to abide by these things in this verse,
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
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No But the JEWS don't haft to ether, But they to abide by these things in this verse,
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
That's the letter they gave to the gentiles James refers to it in Acts 21:25 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 21&version=KJV James,the Jews are zealous of the law and Paul(already had) but the four shave their heads and go to the Temple as in the law.
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
I believe that turning an image into an idol or a god is what makes it graven.
Graven just means carved or formed.
The idea is that the ten commandments don't allow for even making one,
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deuteronomy 5:8 KJV
So the hypocrisy of those who are so ardent about going to church on the seventh day of the week, which there is no command to do, the command is to do no work,
"But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. "
Deuteronomy 5:14‭-‬15 KJV

but you are indeed correct we keep these laws in spirit, so we have images but we don't worship them, we rest in Christ by bringing our burdens in to him prayer and in worship, and in faith. Our Egypt was the flesh and sin, and death.
 
Nov 15, 2020
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Newcastle, NSW, Australia
the sabbath is "sunday" because that's the day Jesus rose from the dead.
the sabbath was saturday because of the jews and their traditions.
and thanks to the romans, who gave us the calendar that we have been using for the last several hundred years ..