Who will Win

[Truth7t7]

As for Daniel chapter 7v21 I would disagree. Jesus cannot be in the least thwarted in building His Church. The little horn of Daniel chapter 7v21 ("the same horn") is the "son of perdition". Therefore verse 21 occurs AFTER his revealing which is AFTER the rapture of the Church.

The Saints Which the little horn is prevailing against is the Tribulation Saints IMO.
Verse 25 confirms this theory. The 3 1/2 years GT that the Church does not suffer.

"Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time."

No pre-trib rapture, the saints are the two witnesses in Rev 11, yes the little Horn is (the man of sin/the antichrist) who is revealed to start the tribulation

 

[cv5]

I used to do a lot of hunting,fishing ect. but I am disabled, old and probably wont live much longer now so I'm narrowed down to the www,CC and what I can find on TV. I keep seeing the cancer commercial on TV where they try to scare people by making them look like a monster and I guess it worked because I've decided I don't want to scare my grandchildren and so I wont let them do the surgery.

No need to fear we will all see the Glory of the Lord Jesus Messiah. We will all be praying for you here my brother. I wonder sometimes if it is better to not seek treatment for some cancers. It may in fact to bring you a greater peace of mind than the contrary. May God comfort you in your trials.

 

[cv5]

Birth pangs ?

Yes that biblical description IS in fact accurate for the present day....IMO.

 

[cv5]

The birth pangs will be seen in the final hours of earth's existence, just prior to the second coming of Jesus Christ in fire and Final judgement.

Isaiah 66:5-15KJV
5 Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

Arguably the reestablishment of the state of Israel in 1948. Arguably...

 

[PennEd]

As for Daniel chapter 7v21 I would disagree. Jesus cannot be in the least thwarted in building His Church. The little horn of Daniel chapter 7v21 ("the same horn") is the "son of perdition". Therefore verse 21 occurs AFTER his revealing which is AFTER the rapture of the Church.

The Saints Which the little horn is prevailing against is the Tribulation Saints IMO.
Verse 25 confirms this theory. The 3 1/2 years GT that the Church does not suffer.

"Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time."

Well, you may be right, but I think those saints that are persecuted right before and during the GT are those that BECOME Christians after the rapture. As for when the son of perdition is revealed, 2 Thessalonians 2 tells us he won't be revealed until the Holy Spirit is removed. Do you not have the Holy Spirit in you?

2 Thessalonians 2

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

 

[Truth7t7]

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

Arguably the reestablishment of the state of Israel in 1948. Arguably...

Sorry pal, the birth pangs precede the (Future) second coming and final judgement, try reading the verses below that you give disregard to

The Lord didnt come in literal fire and judgement in 1948, this is a (Future) event at the Second Coming

Isaiah 66:14-15KJV
14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

 

[cv5]

No pre-trib rapture, the saints are the two witnesses in Rev 11, yes the little Horn is (the man of sin/the antichrist) who is revealed to start the tribulation

Yes yes I understand we have different views of eschatology. I know I'm right.....but hopefully you will come around eventually. To fully comprehend in time eschatology you need a distinctly Jewish mindset and Jewish conception of the Old Testament. If you start laying in Greek philosophy and a Greek viewpoint you will muddle it up. Furthermore Paul declares very clearly that the Greek perspective and philosophy is totally useless. The grave error of the reformers (more prominently the very early ones) is that they merged Aristotelian (Greek) thought into their eschatology & biblical viewpoint. What came out the other end was wreckage.

The Scriptures are Jewish Jewish Jewish Jewish and that's it.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, you may be right, but I think those saints that are persecuted right before and during the GT are those that BECOME Christians after the rapture. As for when the son of perdition is revealed, 2 Thessalonians 2 tells us he won't be revealed until the Holy Spirit is removed. Do you not have the Holy Spirit in you?

2 Thessalonians 2

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Nothing in 2 Thess 2 talks about the Holy Spirit being removed

The falling away is Apostasy of the once professing Church, and The Antichrist being revealed, no mention of Holy Spirit, it's your opinion and private interpretation

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes yes I understand we have different views of eschatology. I know I'm right.....but hopefully you will come around eventually. To fully comprehend in time eschatology you need a distinctly Jewish mindset and Jewish conception of the Old Testament. If you start laying in Greek philosophy and a Greek viewpoint you will muddle it up. Furthermore Paul declares very clearly that the Greek perspective and philosophy is totally useless. The grave error of the reformers (more prominently the very early ones) is that they merged Aristotelian (Greek) thought into their eschatology & biblical viewpoint. What came out the other end was wreckage.

The Scriptures are Jewish Jewish Jewish Jewish and that's it.

Jewish nor Greek Philosophy have anything to do with the KJV I read concerning your claim of a pre-trib rapture thats not found in the scripture

 

[cv5]

Well, you may be right, but I think those saints that are persecuted right before and during the GT are those that BECOME Christians after the rapture. As for when the son of perdition is revealed, 2 Thessalonians 2 tells us he won't be revealed until the Holy Spirit is removed. Do you not have the Holy Spirit in you?

2 Thessalonians 2

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

I think more accurately it states that the Holy Spirit God Himself is restraining the Tribulation. When He removes His restraining hand THEN the son of perdition is revealed. Some people say this is the removal of the Church in the rapture....But I don't think that's what this is saying. The rapture is incidental....It's part of the total program. Furthermore the Holy Spirit is definitely at work during the Tribulation and very much so. Vast numbers of people will be saved the way they are always saved...... by the agency of the Holy Spirit.

As of now I am 100% convinced that "the apostasy" actually means "the departure".....aka the Rapture. This interpretation is by far the best rendering of the text. All of the oldest Bibles render this term "the departure".

 

[cv5]

Jewish nor Greek Philosophy have anything to do with the KJV I read concerning your claim of a pre-trib rapture thats not found in the scripture

I did not say Jewish philosophy. Though there was plenty of that around. I said an understanding of the Bible in a Jewish perspective. Jesus Himself quoted common Jewish idioms in His sermons and sayings many many times. Statements that to usmake absolutely no sense unless you reach way back in time and understand the culture.

For example John the Baptist (doubting....yes he was definitely doubting) stated "are you the Coming One or do we look for another?" will only make sense if you understand the common Jewish myths and errors of that time frame. When you do it makes perfect sense.

 

[Truth7t7]

I did not say Jewish philosophy. Though there was plenty of that around. I said an understanding of the Bible in a Jewish perspective. Jesus Himself quoted common Jewish idioms in His sermons and sayings many many times. Statements that to usmake absolutely no sense unless you reach way back in time and understand the culture.

For example John the Baptist (doubting....yes he was definitely doubting) stated "are you the Coming One or do we look for another?" will only make sense if you understand the common Jewish myths and errors of that time frame. When you do it makes perfect sense.

Jewishness of scripture,(OR) Greek philosophy play no role whatsoever in the false claim of a pre-trib rapture, thats not found in the scripture,is that wording a little better to understand

 

[PennEd]

Nothing in 2 Thess 2 talks about the Holy Spirit being removed

The falling away is Apostasy of the once professing Church, and The Antichrist being revealed, no mention of Holy Spirit, it's your opinion and private interpretation

Well, in many translations, including the NKJV, the "HE" is that is removed is Capitalized.

This is what I will say. I COULD be wrong in my reading and understanding of these particular Scriptures.

The ONLY thing I will NEVER waver on is THE Gospel unto Salvation.

Are you willing to also admit that YOU may be wrong on these matters?

 

[Truth7t7]

Analyst and Trump team join in together in Georgia Lawsuit Dec 4th, 22,000 illegal votes, 500 pages of verified fraud voters, P.O boxes, out of state voting, etc 3:20 Clip, the Info Has Been Delivered To The State Legislature For Further Evidence

How can the State Legislature allow this fraud to continue and let democrats pick electors in a republican controlled legislature?

There Not!

 

[cv5]

I did not say Jewish philosophy. Though there was plenty of that around. I said an understanding of the Bible in a Jewish perspective. Jesus Himself quoted common Jewish idioms in His sermons and sayings many many times. Statements that to usmake absolutely no sense unless you reach way back in time and understand the culture.

For example John the Baptist (doubting....yes he was definitely doubting) stated "are you the Coming One or do we look for another?" will only make sense if you understand the common Jewish myths and errors of that time frame. When you do it makes perfect sense.

Truly great sermon here re: John the Baptist doubting. Fantastic. I would hear the entire chapter. Highest recommendation.

http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/2285

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes that biblical description IS in fact accurate for the present day....IMO.

(Wrong), a future event, just prior to the second coming, sudden, as a woman in labor, not drawn out for years as you and others claim

 

[cv5]

Well, in many translations, including the NKJV, the "HE" is that is removed is Capitalized.

This is what I will say. I COULD be wrong in my reading and understanding of these particular Scriptures.

The ONLY thing I will NEVER waver on is THE Gospel unto Salvation.

Are you willing to also admit that YOU may be wrong on these matters?

Yes sure I could be wrong about these things. I do however think I'm very very close. The He that is being taken out of the way doesn't necessarily mean taken out of the picture completely....totally taken away from the earth. What I think it means is that the Holy Spirit is blocking, impeding.....creating a barrier. Like barricading a road. The Holy Spirit will simply remove the barrier nothing more complicated than that.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, in many translations, including the NKJV, the "HE" is that is removed is Capitalized.

This is what I will say. I COULD be wrong in my reading and understanding of these particular Scriptures.

The ONLY thing I will NEVER waver on is THE Gospel unto Salvation.

Are you willing to also admit that YOU may be wrong on these matters?

Amazing how just the capital letter (H) creates a complete doctrine, as the Thomas Nelson NKJV uses this capital (H) stating (He) is God, while the KJV dosent use this showing the (he) is the man of sin

You forgot to read the NKJV footnote [e] that gives a disclaimer to the capital (H) and its teaching of diety, intentionally injecting the teaching of diety, then a disclaimer, scary!

2 Thessalonians 2:7KJV
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

1 Thessalonians 2:7NKJV
7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

[e]2 Thessalonians 2:7 Or he

 

[Absolutely]

Yes yes I understand we have different views of eschatology. I know I'm right.....but hopefully you will come around eventually. To fully comprehend in time eschatology you need a distinctly Jewish mindset and Jewish conception of the Old Testament. If you start laying in Greek philosophy and a Greek viewpoint you will muddle it up. Furthermore Paul declares very clearly that the Greek perspective and philosophy is totally useless. The grave error of the reformers (more prominently the very early ones) is that they merged Aristotelian (Greek) thought into their eschatology & biblical viewpoint. What came out the other end was wreckage.

The Scriptures are Jewish Jewish Jewish Jewish and that's it.

yes
Jesus used weddings,brides,grooms etc in parables.

they sure were not roman or Ethiopian weddings lol

 

[PennEd]

Amazing how just the capital letter (H) creates a complete doctrine, as the Thomas Nelson NKJV uses this capital (H) stating (He) is God, while the KJV dosent use this showing the (he) is the man of sin

You forgot to read the NKJV footnote [e] that gives a disclaimer to the capital (H) and its teaching of diety, intentionally injecting the teaching of diety, then a disclaimer, scary!

2 Thessalonians 2:7KJV
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

1 Thessalonians 2:7NKJV
7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

[e]2 Thessalonians 2:7 Or he

While all of that is interesting, you didn't answer the question.

Are YOU willing to admit that YOU could be wrong on this?