Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[Guojing]

I find it problematic when you just make up doctrine, and promote it, without scripture that actually backs it up. You use scripture, and then promote your theories about why that verse is there in your scheme of things, rather than deriving this doctrine from scripture. This is called eisegesis.

You are also doing the same thing, as all of us here are. We tend to see that in others, but not ourselves because we are, by definition, the protagonist in the way we perceive the world.

Again, this is why we are discussing bible doctrines in forums. By sharing different views on the same passages, all of us get a more holistic view.

 

[SoulWeaver]

When Jesus mentioned Luke 11:29, he was criticizing Israel who kept on asking for signs from him. But the entire book of John is specifically to record 8 signs for Israel, so Luke 11:29 cannot be about Jesus not giving Israel ANY sign at all.

As for Acts 28:5, I regard that as more of a miracle than a sign, similar to what can happen nowadays, say with John G Lake for example, who had some people claiming that disease germs who touch his flesh miraculously died. It was not a sign for any purpose.

To be a sign, in the strict sense of what my point 1 is saying, it must be a miracle pointing people to believe that this person is sent by God to them.

The Scripture though classifies not being harmed by poison as a "sign following those who believe". Then yet another Scripture says, the signs are "for those who do not believe".
I agree with @Dino246 here that you are narrowing the definition of a sign. I have noticed you narrow definitions for other things as well, and by this effectively "disqualify" whatever you don't want to recognize as gift, sign, etc. I don't think this gives accurate results. I believe the Bible is its own reference system. If we start applying definitions that are external to the system, we reap contradictions.

I think I have spoken my mind enough. Stay well

 

[Guojing]

Do you have any scripture to show that they cannot happen today?

After the Body of Christ is raptured, and God restarts his dealings with Israel, signs and wonders will definitely be making a comeback then. (Matthew 24:24, Revelation 11:3-6)

 

[Guojing]

The Scripture though classifies not being harmed by poison as a "sign following those who believe". Then yet another Scripture says, the signs are "for those who do not believe".
I agree with @Dino246 here that you are narrowing the definition of a sign. I have noticed you narrow definitions for other things as well, and by this effectively "disqualify" whatever you don't want to recognize as gift, sign, etc. I don't think this gives accurate results. I believe the Bible is its own reference system. If we start applying definitions of things that are not in the system, we reap contradictions.

I think I have spoken my mind enough. Stay well

Alright then, this is non-salvific issue anyway, so as Paul would advise us in the Body of Christ in Romans 14:5

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

So I certainly understand that people will have different views on this. If you come from a church that holds similar doctrine as Bethel church, for example, you will most likely disagree that signs are no longer for today.

Nice discussing doctrine with you.

 

[presidente]

The follow up argument I presented to Dino

So if you believe that Israel required a sign from God that someone was sent to them.

And if you believe that, currently, Israel the nation is an enemy to God when it comes to the gospel (Romans 11:28), so in God's eyes, Israel the nation has fallen (Romans 11:11)

It seems more than reasonable to conclude, from the above 2 premises, that God is not showing any signs to anyone now.

In no way do your arguments support your conclusion. During this time, God is provoking Israel to jealousy. So why wouldn't signs be done during this time? You have not presented any scripture to support your theory. Also, Romans 11 teaches that blindness __in part__ is happened to Israel. There are still Israelites coming to faith and have been since Paul's time.

And signs are not exclusively for Israel. That is clear from the scriptures I have already presented.

But yes, you are right, after the Body of Christ is raptured, and God restarts his dealings with Israel, signs and wonders will definitely be making a comeback then. (Matthew 24:24, Revelation 11:3-6)

In the Bible, the rapture occurs at Jesus' parousia (coming) as seen in I Thessalonians 4. But the wicked one is destroyed at the 'brightness of His coming' (parousia) in II Thessalonians 2. So why would the rapture occur before the tribulation?

 

[presidente]

You are also doing the same thing, as all of us here are. We tend to see that in others, but not ourselves because we are, by definition, the protagonist in the way we perceive the world.

I am arguing that the teachings of the New Testament are still true and applicable. On this issue, signs, etc., you do not see them as true and applicable for us. This is not just a matter of opinion, or my view versus your view. We are talking about the teachings of scripture. You have a theory that you have not backed up by scripture that does away with some of the Bible's teachings as being applicable for the church.

 

[Guojing]

I am arguing that the teachings of the New Testament are still true and applicable. On this issue, signs, etc., you do not see them as true and applicable for us. This is not just a matter of opinion, or my view versus your view. We are talking about the teachings of scripture. You have a theory that you have not backed up by scripture that does away with some of the Bible's teachings as being applicable for the church.

Do you agree that Paul instructs us in the Body of Christ not to look for signs?

And do you agree that Paul never promised us in the Body of Christ to expect physical healing for our sicknesses, before our bodies are redeemed?

 

[Guojing]

During this time, God is provoking Israel to jealousy. So why wouldn't signs be done during this time?

I already stated in my point 8, signs and wonders are done among the Gentiles, yes, to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)

Yes, those signs are done among Gentiles for that purpose too. My point 1 quoted from Psalms 74:9 that Israel always see signs as "theirs". So what better way to provoke them to jealousy than God performing "their signs" among the heathen dogs?

Now God is no longer dealing with the nation Israel, they are as uncircumcised as any other nation on Earth. But as I said, he will restart the program with them during the Great Tribulation, so signs will be making a comeback then.

 

[notuptome]

Since you have such a negative, closed-minded attitude about this subject, I suggest you stay out of the discussion. You add nothing to it but hostility and stupidity.

Hostility on your part toward the Truth. Stupidity also on your side to justify unbiblical conduct. You will not to receive Truth but then not much else can be expected when the majority of the church has forsaken it's mission.

Unsound doctrine is able to produce nothing more than more unsound doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

I can explain my position to you, but I cannot understand it for you.

Miss the point much? I reject your position, not because I don't understand it, but because it is wrong.

Despite you constantly making personal attacks throughout this discussion, I have been extending grace to you by agreeing with you in certain points you have made.

Telling you that your reasoning is flawed is not a personal attack. Bad logic is bad logic, and telling you so is just telling the truth. You claim to want to "expand your knowledge base" but you resist information that challenges your preconceived ideas. That's an effective way to be ignorant.

Its not my intention to convince you if you don't wish to be.

You have failed to convince me because your premise is flawed, your supportive arguments are fallacious, and your evidence doesn't prove your points.

 

[Papou]

The argument that it has ceased is straightforward, with the necessary scripture:

1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-21, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
5. God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).
6. Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)
7. Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)
8. Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)
9. By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).
10. Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.

Any comments and different perspectives?

If you want to see what is going on in the world you have to look at the world ! Ostriches too does not see what is going on around them ! Divine signs haven't stop because God is still in control of the the world ! Go in the world, in the hospital, in prisons, in bars, in place where people are suffering and you will see Jesus ...

 

[Guojing]

If you want to see what is going on in the world you have to look at the world ! Ostriches too does not see what is going on around them ! Divine signs haven't stop because God is still in control of the the world ! Go in the world, in the hospital, in prisons, in bars, in place where people are suffering and you will see Jesus ...

What you meant is God still heals today, which I certainly agree.

 

[Papou]

What you meant is God still heals today, which I certainly agree.

Ah ok then we agree on that! This is great that does not happen often !
Let's celebrate ! Just kidding lol

 

[Guojing]

Miss the point much? I reject your position, not because I don't understand it, but because it is wrong.


Telling you that your reasoning is flawed is not a personal attack. Bad logic is bad logic, and telling you so is just telling the truth. You claim to want to "expand your knowledge base" but you resist information that challenges your preconceived ideas. That's an effective way to be ignorant.


You have failed to convince me because your premise is flawed, your supportive arguments are fallacious, and your evidence doesn't prove your points.

What about words like pathetic and slither away?

 

[Dino246]

What about words like pathetic and slither away?

I used both terms in regard to your actions, not to you personally. You began the thread with an attempt at a logical argument for your assertion. Instead of dealing squarely with criticism of your ideas, you have either treated it as inconsequential or avoided it altogether. That's a failure to engage. Taking personally the criticism of your ideas typically demonstrates that you have too much of your identity tied up in them. If you can't be wrong without crumbling, the problem is with you.

I get that many people cannot grasp the distinction between a comment directed at an idea (or a behaviour), and one directed at a person. As this is a discussion forum, ideas presented here are fair game for criticism and even ridicule. As for behaviour, I don't see a problem with calling out that which is unconstructive or unhelpful. It's exactly what you just did to me, by the way.

 

[presidente]

Do you agree that Paul instructs us in the Body of Christ not to look for signs?

I cannot recall any scripture where Paul teaches that. There is no restriction on performing signs and wonders. The apostles did that and so did other believers as we can see in scripture. The Bible says, 'These signs shall follow them that believe.' Christians also have the whole Old Testament to draw from, and we can see that God may at times gives signs of the fulfilled prophecy type if He so chooses, or that miracles can serve as signs and wonders in evangelism. Where do you see a restriction on signs in the New Testament?

And do you agree that Paul never promised us in the Body of Christ to expect physical healing for our sicknesses, before our bodies are redeemed?

I cannot think of a specific scripture in Paul's writings, but there is the whole Bible to be considered. Something I read recently comes to mind: how that the Pharisees were upset about Jesus healing on the Sabbath rather than valuing how a man was made whole. Matthew 8 interprets verses from Isaiah 53 as being applicable to physical healing, and even Gentiles in the church are fellow heirs in Christ with Jewish believers.

 

[presidente]

I already stated in my point 8, signs and wonders are done among the Gentiles, yes, to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)

Yes, those signs are done among Gentiles for that purpose too. My point 1 quoted from Psalms 74:9 that Israel always see signs as "theirs". So what better way to provoke them to jealousy than God performing "their signs" among the heathen dogs?

Now God is no longer dealing with the nation Israel, they are as uncircumcised as any other nation on Earth. But as I said, he will restart the program with them during the Great Tribulation, so signs will be making a comeback then.

Hostility on your part toward the Truth.

I thought Guojing's opinion on this was also at odds with your own.

 

[presidente]

I already stated in my point 8, signs and wonders are done among the Gentiles, yes, to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)

The verse you cite does not support that idea that the reason for signs among the Gentiles was to alert Israel to a change of dispensation. The danger of your approach is that it leads one to reject teachings of scripture to the church as being applicable for the church (e.g. on spiritual gifts in I Corinthians 12) based on doctrine that is built on no scripture as all. Posting a scripture that does not support your assertion is not evidence for your position. Why should one reject the teaching of scripture based on your mere assertions?

Yes, those signs are done among Gentiles for that purpose too. My point 1 quoted from Psalms 74:9 that Israel always see signs as "theirs". So what better way to provoke them to jealousy than God performing "their signs" among the heathen dogs?

Now God is no longer dealing with the nation Israel, they are as uncircumcised as any other nation on Earth.

That contradicts scripture. Read Romans 11. God is using Gentile conversion to provoke Israel to jealousy. There is no reason to think that the provoking to jealousy situation has changed between the time Paul wrote about it and the time that the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, described in Romans 11.

Let us look at some verses in Romans 11.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Why would the provoking of Israel to jealousy in verse 11 and end before the receiving of them in verse 15? And some do come to faith. Paul wrote in this chapter that the blindness was 'in part.'

Romans 15 also argues against your point of view. Consider these verses:

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Notice first of all that Paul's ministry among the Gentiles, which from the perspective of Romans 11 served the purpose of provoking Israel to jealousy, involved preaching the Gospel among the Gentiles accompanied by signs and wonders.

We also see another function or purpose of signs and wonders in this passage: to make the Gentiles obedient. Signs and wonders are not exclusively for the Jews. And since we are still in the time when the Gentiles are coming in while Gentile conversion is provoking the Jews to jealousy, as was the case also when Paul wrote Romans, there is no reason we should assume that God will not continue to perform signs through the saints or that the spiritual gifts described in other passages will not function in the church.

 

[notuptome]

I thought Guojing's opinion on this was also at odds with your own.

I was not addressing nor have I addressed any of his posts. I'm only addressing what the bible states about three gifts ending.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

I was not addressing nor have I addressed any of his posts. I'm only addressing what the bible states about three gifts ending.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It says whether there be tongues, they shall cease, not that 'the gift of tongues' will cease. Tongues ceased wherever they were spoken in Paul's day.

Of course, in the context of the epistle, Paul had already written in chapter 1 about utterance and knowledge and 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' After referring to the coming of the perfect in chapter 13, and how the perfect would render his speech, thought, and understanding to be like that of a child compared to what was to come, Paul wrote of the resurrection of the believer and the transformation of the body at the return of Christ in chapter 15. Chapter 13 should be interpreted in context, in line with the flow of argument in the epistle.