Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[throughfaith]

I do believe that God has led people to lay hands on cancer patients, and the patients were healed. I don't believe there were ever people who could heal outside of God's specific leading and anointing.


Good; we agree on something. You believe He can, but do you believe He does?

He's saying that God Heals . But there are no ' healers ' today . Those gifts of healing the Apostles had to confirm their ministry . ' signs that accompanied ' ,to jews .

 

[throughfaith]

Those who don't want to believe won't believe, regardless of the count or kind of miracle witnessed.

Today, faith comes by hearing the word of God .

 

[throughfaith]

The interesting thing about the miracle of water to wine was that only the disciples (and servants of the party) knew a miracle had occurred. The official wasn't aware but thought the best wine was simply saved for last.

When did John know ?

 

[throughfaith]

The interesting thing about the miracle of water to wine was that only the disciples (and servants of the party) knew a miracle had occurred. The official wasn't aware but thought the best wine was simply saved for last.

John 2.11

11¶This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

 

[John146]

I do believe that God has led people to lay hands on cancer patients, and the patients were healed. I don't believe there were ever people who could heal outside of God's specific leading and anointing.


Good; we agree on something. You believe He can, but do you believe He does?

I just don’t see the gift of healings today. The gift doesn’t come and go, at least not the gift of the Apostles.

I’ve been in remission for a year and a half and I give all credit to the Lord for my healing. That’s a miracle in my eyes because it doesn’t happen to everyone.

 

[Guojing]

Comparing an old covenant command with the new covenant gifts is a pretty flawed comparison the gifts weren't active until the church was formed

The point I am saying is that you are using Hebrews 13:8 out of context

 

[Guojing]

@Guojing
I started reading last night from Ephesians onward. And the very next thing I find in Thessalonians, "despise not prophesyings", which suggests prophesying was going on afterwards the list in Ephesians which you referenced... However, I was reluctant to post it yet for some reason, and I wanted to do more reading, and I sat on it overnight.

The reason suddenly slammed me this morning. "Wait, do we actually know the chronological order in which the epistles were written - is their order in the Bible actually chronological?" So, if their order is not chronological, then I cannot establish proof for the issue in this way, but then also your argument consisting of perceived progression is equally voided.

So I believe we must first determine what is the exact chronological order in which chapters were written, when it comes to the Acts and the epistles, before either of us is able to draw arguments from their progression in the Bible, if we want to approach the subject in all fairness. I opened a thread and will see if anyone will chime in who knows if the chronological order is known or if scholars deduced it, if not I'll be wading until I find out.

It is agreed that the Thessalonians letters were among the 1st letters written by Paul.

Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians are known as the prison epistles, written when Paul was in prison in Rome, which occurs in Acts 28.

1, 2 Corinthians and Romans were written before Paul's visit to Jerusalem in Acts 21. We know that because he talked about the fund raising in those books.

 

[Guojing]

I agree with them ceasing but am unsure how it is only Israel that the sign gifts applied to.. since Jesus and His disciples were the first NT church and the disciples had these sign gifts.

I see the sign gifts ceasing with completion of the canon and death of the apostles.

Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel (Matthew 15:24), and he commanded his disciples not to preach to the gentiles (Matthew 10:5).

Signs were linked to Israel since Exodus 4.

 

[Dino246]

Today, faith comes by hearing the word of God .

It always did.

 

[Guojing]

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,

21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

49And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Now 1 Corinthians was written 20 years after Paul's conversion and he is teaching them about how they all have been given gifts by the Holy Spirit to benefit the body of Christ among which are what you call "sign gifts" but what the scriptures simply call spiritual gifts.

They had not ceased and the only mention of them every ceasing was when he mentions the return of Christ or our going to be with Him, "That which is perfect is come" not the writing of the book of Revelation but the day when we will see him face to face (1 Cor 13) and until then TRUE LOVE is shown by operating in the gifts of the Spirit in a motivation of Love.

Your denial of the Holy Spirit gifts disqualifies you from being able to teach since it is one of the gifts. No one really wants to listen to someone who does not depend on the Spiritual gift of teaching. Otherwise it is just vain babbling of the erroneous interpretations such as "the gifts have ceases" being a prime example.

I have stated my argument clearly in the OP, with the necessary scripture. Which parts do you disagree with and why?

 

[Dino246]

He's saying that God Heals . But there are no ' healers ' today . Those gifts of healing the Apostles had to confirm their ministry . ' signs that accompanied ' ,to jews .

The thread title is, "Why have the Sign Gifts Ended". There never were any "healers", but there continue to be people through whom God works miracles of healing. It's a subtle but important distinction. Most people read, "Gifts" and think that the gifted person has full control over the operation of the gift, yet I see no evidence in Scripture that any of the gifts operated in such a manner.

 

[Scribe]

I have stated my argument clearly in the OP, with the necessary scripture. Which parts do you disagree with and why?

My scriptures trumped your premise. Concede already.

 

[Guojing]

My scriptures trumped your premise. Concede already.

Do you want to specify which point? I gave a numerical listing, to make it easy for you.

We are not discussing this to change each other's minds so no need to think in terms of conceding.

Just state your argument and let your readers decide for themselves whether it makes sense.

 

[Dino246]

Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel (Matthew 15:24), and he commanded his disciples not to preach to the gentiles (Matthew 10:5).

Signs were linked to Israel since Exodus 4.

Indeed, Jesus' earthly ministry concentrated on the Jews, and His initial instructions were for His disciples to reach out to Jews. However, those instructions were superseded in Matthew 28 and again in Acts 1.

The Jews ask for signs, but that doesn't mean that God is limited to working signs among Israelites.

 

[Guojing]

Indeed, Jesus' earthly ministry concentrated on the Jews, and His initial instructions were for His disciples to reach out to Jews. However, those instructions were superseded in Matthew 28 and again in Acts 1.

The Jews ask for signs, but that doesn't mean that God is limited to working signs among Israelites.

It was only superseded after Stephen was stoned.

My point 5 was saying that, Matthew 28 and Acts 1 was under the 1 year extension that God gave to the nation Israel. That is why we saw Acts 2 and 3, Peter only addressing the "men of Israel".

Acts 3:26, KJV: "Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."

 

[Dino246]

I just don’t see the gift of healings today. The gift doesn’t come and go, at least not the gift of the Apostles.

I’ve been in remission for a year and a half and I give all credit to the Lord for my healing. That’s a miracle in my eyes because it doesn’t happen to everyone.

Praise the Lord for the remission you have received.

If you're looking for people who can heal others at will, I doubt you will find any such person. If you're looking for people who have been used by God to bring healing to others, you will find many. I think your focus is too narrow.

 

[Dino246]

It was only superseded after Stephen was stoned.

My point 5 was saying that, Matthew 28 and Acts 1 was under the 1 year extension that God gave to the nation Israel. That is why we saw Acts 2 and 3, Peter only addressing the "men of Israel".

Acts 3:26, KJV: "Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."

What "1 year extension"? There is no such thing. Jesus gave specific instructions in Matthew 28, and He reiterated them in Acts 1... both long before Stephen's death.

Methinks you're grasping at straws because you are starting to see that your premise is deeply flawed.

 

[Guojing]

What "1 year extension"? There is no such thing. Jesus gave specific instructions in Matthew 28, and He reiterated them in Acts 1... both long before Stephen's death.

Methinks you're grasping at straws because you are starting to see that your premise is deeply flawed.

I quoted Acts 3:26 already. What does it literally says to you?

Do you also recall the last question they asked Jesus before he ascended in Acts 1:6? Your understanding of "all nations" is not the same as how the 11 understood it.

 

[Scribe]

What "1 year extension"? There is no such thing. Jesus gave specific instructions in Matthew 28, and He reiterated them in Acts 1... both long before Stephen's death.

Methinks you're grasping at straws because you are starting to see that your premise is deeply flawed.

Not a shred of biblical support for a "one year extension" theory. Annoying statements like this demonstrate a lack of intellectual honesty.

 

[Guojing]

Not a shred of biblical support for a "one year extension" theory. Annoying statements like this demonstrate a lack of intellectual honesty.

I already quoted for you (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), in my OP, have you even read them?

If you have a different interpretation of those scripture passages, share them and let your readers decide how sound your arguments are, instead of making personal remarks.