Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"
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Why do you continue to put forth arguments, that seem to imply, you do not know the difference between God's Eternal and Unchangeable Plan and this Plan unfolding in time? Surely you understand the difference? One guarantees the other.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
All of these highlighted verbs are in the "past tense" in the Greek. The writer, under inspiration, was pointing out the reality of God's Eternal Plan. Giving us the assurance that what God has planned from Eternity, before He created anything, cannot be altered. In God's mind, all of these things have taken place already!
As to "Time", these things are imparted to each believer as they are "Regenerated" and as they go through their "Conversion" experiences. When this was written, many in "Time" had not even been born yet. Others were living and had not yet fallen asleep, to which then they would receive their "Glorified Body". But as things unfold in "Time", as God planned and is executing, they in no way change what was planned from Eternity, nor add anything to it.
1) Foreknowledge set Foreordination - Eternal Knowledge set Eternal Determination.
2) Foreordination puts into action Calling - Eternal Determination, put forth in Time at the proper instance.
3) Once Called, Justification, which was wrought out in Eternity and manifested in time, is imparted to the believer - Eternal Determination, realized in Time.
4) The above guarantees, the believer will be Glorified - A life led by Christ, realized in Eternity.
To often, misunderstandings occur because we do not separate properly, the things that are Eternal and the things which are Temporal. Are if you prefer, the things which belong to God and the things which belong to Man.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
All of these highlighted verbs are in the "past tense" in the Greek. The writer, under inspiration, was pointing out the reality of God's Eternal Plan. Giving us the assurance that what God has planned from Eternity, before He created anything, cannot be altered. In God's mind, all of these things have taken place already!
As to "Time", these things are imparted to each believer as they are "Regenerated" and as they go through their "Conversion" experiences. When this was written, many in "Time" had not even been born yet. Others were living and had not yet fallen asleep, to which then they would receive their "Glorified Body". But as things unfold in "Time", as God planned and is executing, they in no way change what was planned from Eternity, nor add anything to it.
1) Foreknowledge set Foreordination - Eternal Knowledge set Eternal Determination.
2) Foreordination puts into action Calling - Eternal Determination, put forth in Time at the proper instance.
3) Once Called, Justification, which was wrought out in Eternity and manifested in time, is imparted to the believer - Eternal Determination, realized in Time.
4) The above guarantees, the believer will be Glorified - A life led by Christ, realized in Eternity.
To often, misunderstandings occur because we do not separate properly, the things that are Eternal and the things which are Temporal. Are if you prefer, the things which belong to God and the things which belong to Man.
From your perspective Jesus did not Die for everyone, only the ' elect ' . So you NEED to be one of the frozen chosen . Only the 'elect ' will be glorified According to your worldview . All the scriptures you have more or less point to your ' election ' including
1) Adoption
2 ) inheritance
3) predestination
4) Election
This has all already happened according to your view .
What remains yet future is 5) Glorification .
Now which scriptures say that Jesus died for you?
Which scripture says that you will be glorified ?
Which verse says you are' elect ' ?
Apart from your works how do you know you will not be one of those in
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1) Adoption
2 ) inheritance
3) predestination
4) Election
This has all already happened according to your view .
What remains yet future is 5) Glorification .
Now which scriptures say that Jesus died for you?
Which scripture says that you will be glorified ?
Which verse says you are' elect ' ?
Apart from your works how do you know you will not be one of those in
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Point number one:
I don't hold to Reformed Theology either, because they have it wrong when it comes down to the understanding of Rom. 3:22.
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
The proper translation of "δικαιοσυνη δε θεου δια πιστεως ιησου χριστου εις παντας τους πιστευοντας..." Should be " Even a righteousness of God by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto the ones believing...." This translation more harmonizes with the previous statement in Rom. 3:21,
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
The Reformers teach that we are justified by Faith and Faith alone. Their Theology rests heavily on this poor translation of 3:22. The emphasis should be on the righteousness that Christ wrought out at Calvary. The righteousness planned by the Father and accomplished by Jesus Christ. His righteousness is then imputed to the believer's account and is imparted to the believer, when he/she first believed.
Our righteousness is as filthy rags and no faith is going to change that. The believer must have Christ's righteousness imputed/imparted to them to be justified before God. Therefore, it is Christ's faithful work that justified the believer before God...not our faith. Our faith justifies us before our own conscience and before others. It is by faith that we learn that we are justified before God and found righteous. What the Law and the Prophets witnessed, was not our faith but the faithful work at Calvary of God's Holy Son.
So faith does not Justify us or make us Righteous before God, however, faith does enable us to realize this marvelous Truth.
Point number two:
Foreordination and predestination are one and the same thing.
There is a sense in which we are glorified already. That is to become glorious in His sight and to be honored. This took place in Eternity, before any were created. We are in Christ, so we are said to be Holy, Glorious and Righteous. However, the point I was making, is still future. We have not yet put off this mortal shell and the sin nature still resides in us. The "Glorified" I was talking about, is when we put off this body and put on the one made by God. This is our final and full Glory. To this we are Predestined.
I don't hold to Reformed Theology either, because they have it wrong when it comes down to the understanding of Rom. 3:22.
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
The proper translation of "δικαιοσυνη δε θεου δια πιστεως ιησου χριστου εις παντας τους πιστευοντας..." Should be " Even a righteousness of God by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto the ones believing...." This translation more harmonizes with the previous statement in Rom. 3:21,
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
The Reformers teach that we are justified by Faith and Faith alone. Their Theology rests heavily on this poor translation of 3:22. The emphasis should be on the righteousness that Christ wrought out at Calvary. The righteousness planned by the Father and accomplished by Jesus Christ. His righteousness is then imputed to the believer's account and is imparted to the believer, when he/she first believed.
Our righteousness is as filthy rags and no faith is going to change that. The believer must have Christ's righteousness imputed/imparted to them to be justified before God. Therefore, it is Christ's faithful work that justified the believer before God...not our faith. Our faith justifies us before our own conscience and before others. It is by faith that we learn that we are justified before God and found righteous. What the Law and the Prophets witnessed, was not our faith but the faithful work at Calvary of God's Holy Son.
So faith does not Justify us or make us Righteous before God, however, faith does enable us to realize this marvelous Truth.
Point number two:
Foreordination and predestination are one and the same thing.
There is a sense in which we are glorified already. That is to become glorious in His sight and to be honored. This took place in Eternity, before any were created. We are in Christ, so we are said to be Holy, Glorious and Righteous. However, the point I was making, is still future. We have not yet put off this mortal shell and the sin nature still resides in us. The "Glorified" I was talking about, is when we put off this body and put on the one made by God. This is our final and full Glory. To this we are Predestined.
On the 'Faith' part you mentioned .
Romans 5.1
1¶ Therefore being justified by faith , we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Obviously when we see " therefore " we check to see what it is ' there ' for .
So we see Justified by faith .
Ok whos faith ? Well let's see ..
Romans 4
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
13¶For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith .
16¶Therefore it is of faith , that it might be by grace ; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
19And being not weak in faith , he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith , giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23¶Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Romans 5.1
1¶ Therefore being justified by faith , we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Obviously when we see " therefore " we check to see what it is ' there ' for .
So we see Justified by faith .
Ok whos faith ? Well let's see ..
Romans 4
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
13¶For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith .
16¶Therefore it is of faith , that it might be by grace ; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
19And being not weak in faith , he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith , giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23¶Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
I agree from Romans 8 that from God's perspective we are as good as Glorified . From my perspective its because After we believe God predestines us, now in Christ , to absolute Guaranteed Glorification. My future is not based on the U or the P but the sealing of the Holy Spirit and being predestinated to the future Adoption.. Your predestination and Adoption has already happened according to you . Now you have to make certain you are one of the elect and apart from your works you cannot know your present let alone your future. Not from scripture anyway .
A distinction must be dawn between "Human Faith" and "God given Faith"... at this point I am sure I have already lost you. However, if "Faith" is the gift of God, (Eph. 2:8), then one exercising this "Faith" has already been Justified before God. Faith and believing, in this case, are one and the same. In other areas of Scripture, "Faith" relates to the "system of faith".
I fear you are not able to receive the point that was being made. Simply, we are not Justified before God by faith:
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that is justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Who is the one Justifying? It is God. The portion of the Scripture, that states ..."his faith is counted for righteousness." Again needs a long hard look in the Greek. It should read "...his faith is being taken into account because of righteousness." In other words, his believing (Present Active Participle, his believing is active in the mind), is taken into account (Present Passive Indicative, someone else is taking his believing into account), because of (Ablative of Cause), righteousness (because this believer has already been made righteous).
I am not going to take the time to transliterate each and every verse, since I am sure, you really aren't interested in this information. Let's just say that, if you look at your own verses given as proof texts closely, you will see the point from the earlier statements. Almost all of the verses given by you, either prove that believing/ faith is because one is already Justified before God or is dealing with the one believing, coming to a sure realization, that he/she is Justified already.
I will in closing say that verse 4:24, in the King James, is an atrocious translation. Not even close.
From the Nestle text: " 24 But for us also, to whom it is being (Present Active Indicative), reckoned (Present Passive Infinitive), to the ones believing (Present Active Participle), on the one having raised (Aorist Active Participle), Jesus our Lord from the dead;
See the difference? The King James had the "reckoning" and "Believing" as if they were future tense verbs in the subjunctive mood, the mood of possibility. When the reality is, the "reckoning" and "believing" are in the present tense, in the indicative mood, the mood of reality. Therefore, it is being reckoned to the ones believing - right now, at this moment and all who will believe are have ever believed. Because they have God given faith and therefore are already Justified from Eternity.
I fear you are not able to receive the point that was being made. Simply, we are not Justified before God by faith:
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that is justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Who is the one Justifying? It is God. The portion of the Scripture, that states ..."his faith is counted for righteousness." Again needs a long hard look in the Greek. It should read "...his faith is being taken into account because of righteousness." In other words, his believing (Present Active Participle, his believing is active in the mind), is taken into account (Present Passive Indicative, someone else is taking his believing into account), because of (Ablative of Cause), righteousness (because this believer has already been made righteous).
I am not going to take the time to transliterate each and every verse, since I am sure, you really aren't interested in this information. Let's just say that, if you look at your own verses given as proof texts closely, you will see the point from the earlier statements. Almost all of the verses given by you, either prove that believing/ faith is because one is already Justified before God or is dealing with the one believing, coming to a sure realization, that he/she is Justified already.
I will in closing say that verse 4:24, in the King James, is an atrocious translation. Not even close.
From the Nestle text: " 24 But for us also, to whom it is being (Present Active Indicative), reckoned (Present Passive Infinitive), to the ones believing (Present Active Participle), on the one having raised (Aorist Active Participle), Jesus our Lord from the dead;
See the difference? The King James had the "reckoning" and "Believing" as if they were future tense verbs in the subjunctive mood, the mood of possibility. When the reality is, the "reckoning" and "believing" are in the present tense, in the indicative mood, the mood of reality. Therefore, it is being reckoned to the ones believing - right now, at this moment and all who will believe are have ever believed. Because they have God given faith and therefore are already Justified from Eternity.
