The dreaded doctrine of election and perseverance.

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S

Scribe

Guest
#41
#41
throughfaith said:
Just think how much bible you could read instead.
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That is fine, but I don't believe one should attempt to discuss Calvin's theology if they haven't read him. It is extremely annoying. I don't want to be that guy. When I have read him I will feel like I have something intelligent to say about his views.

I read books for classes but very few of my text books are available on audible.com or I would listen to them when at the gym or doing tasks. So listening to books that I can find on the same subject of my classes I find very productive.

As to devotional bible study, I am currently studying 2 Peter. I will read 2 Peter several times over asking the Holy Spirit to illuminate me and depending on Him to give me the intended interpretation.

Then I will also read several commentaries from good writers who believed in the verbal inspiration of the Bible and are or were well respected scholars who know more than me. Sometimes I will read things I am not in agreement with but that is actually fairly rare.
Most of the time the commentaries I read will be saying the same thing as I understood it but will also give me much more than I noticed when I read it. Like background information, timelines, and most importantly other scriptures from other parts of the bible that contribute to the subject. This shortens my learning curve by decades if I relied only on my on bible reading.

I know this is painfully obvious but it astounds me how many people insist on wallowing in their own ignorance while a whole universe of biblical education is available to them for free. They pride themselves in being stupid. "I never read good bible reference books" they say. And you bite your tongue resisting the urge to say "It shows" :)
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#42
Aug 4, 2020
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#42
Grandpa said:
Everyone who is Saved by Christ knows they are Saved.

This Knowledge of Salvation is first and foremost. Everything else comes after. You can call it OSAS or Perseverence of the Saints. They are interchangeable in my opinion.

There is no insecurity in Eternal Security. You are completely wrong in your initial premise, again.
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As a Calvinist how would they know today that they won't fall away in the future ? They don't know today that they will ultimately persevere till the end .
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#43
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#43
throughfaith said:
Do you base that on you believing you were elected to be converted ?
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No. I was saved. I didn't learn how until afterwards. By doing what the bible says to do. Work out your Salvation with fear and trembling.

Study how you were saved. Realize it was not from you. Salvation is not from your works or your intellect. Salvation is from the Lord and in order to be Saved you have to be led to it by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture tells you very simply.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There's one verse that wraps it all up. Election, Salvation, Perseverence.

You didn't learn of Christ because you decided to be a good person. You learned of Christ because you were led to, by God.

Every step towards Salvation was God leading you.



To try and oppose Gods Sovereignty after you are already saved just means you don't know scripture and you don't understand your own Salvation.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#44
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#44
throughfaith said:
As a Calvinist how would they know today that they won't fall away in the future ? They don't know today that they will ultimately persevere till the end .
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They do, if they study and pray.

I suppose that is the key no matter what your theology. Study and pray and you will find that Salvation cannot be lost.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#45
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#45
Scribe said:
That is fine, but I don't believe one should attempt to discuss Calvin's theology if they haven't read him. It is extremely annoying. I don't want to be that guy. When I have read him I will feel like I have something intelligent to say about his views.

I read books for classes but very few of my text books are available on audible.com or I would listen to them when at the gym or doing tasks. So listening to books that I can find on the same subject of my classes I find very productive.

As to bible study, I am currently studying 2 Peter. I will read 2 Peter several times over asking the Holy Spirit to illuminate me and depending on Him to give me the intended interpretation.

Then I will also read several commentaries from good writers who believed in the verbal inspiration of the Bible and are or were well respected scholars who know more than me. Sometimes I will read things I am not in agreement with but that is actually fairly rare.
Most of the time the commentaries I read will be saming the same thing as I understood it but will also give me much more than I noticed when I read it. Like background information, timelines, and most importantly other scriptures from other parts of the bible that contribute to the subject. This shortens my learning curve by decades if I relied only on my on bible reading.

I know this is painfully obvious but it astounds me how many people insist on wallowing in their own ignorance while a whole universe of biblical education is available to them for free. They pride themselves in being stupid. "I never read good bible reference books" they say. And you bite your tongue resisting the urge to say "It shows" :)
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I would say once you understand the 5 points you can make a informed decision. The 5 points make it easier .
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#48
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#48
Nehemiah6 said:
It looks like you should get a better grasp of so-called "Lordship salvation" since all genuine salvation -- by definition -- must be Lordship salvation.

Now please note carefully what is stated here: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:30,31).

Did Paul simply say "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ"? Or did he say "the LORD Jesus Christ"? And if he said that, was there tremendous significance in saying it that way?

ALL GENUINE SALVATION IS LORDSHIP SALVATION. That is because you must believe on the LORD Jesus Christ.

As to Unconditional Election, that is not in accordance with the true Gospel, which offers salvation freely to whosoever will repent and believe. As to perseverance, we are "kept by the power of God".
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"Whosoever will repent". To me, it is redundant to think that the unregenerate man would repent of breaking a spiritual law, that he cannot discern, and thinks it to be foolishness. It seems, to me, that repentance of breaking a spiritual law would be restricted to those who have been born spiritually. What do you think?
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#49
#49
I did some study of and once was a Calvinists. Further study put me off of Calvinism. I don't think that Calvin would be a Calvinist as it stands today (not that I hold Calvin in any high regard, modern Calvinists are much better; the 85 dead and hundreds exiled from Geneva under his teaching probably would agree with me as to who Calvin was). However a stopped clock is correct twice a day. Calvin had the sovereignty of God correct, and he also had it right that we can not of our own power choose God.
All that being said, one of the greatest teachers of our time was a Calvinist, RC Sproul was an awesome teacher.
I however am neither Calvinist or Arminian.
I guess I should sum up how I see it based on my studies this far, but not in this post.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#50
Aug 4, 2020
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#50
ForestGreenCook said:
"Whosoever will repent". To me, it is redundant to think that the unregenerate man would repent of breaking a spiritual law, that he cannot discern, and thinks it to be foolishness. It seems, to me, that repentance of breaking a spiritual law would be restricted to those who have been born spiritually. What do you think?
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Commanding all men everywhere to repent and marvelling at peoples unbelief can only be consistent with the fact that people are able to repent and believe .
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#51
#51
Addendum; I don't see election and perseverance as "dreaded" there is some honest merit there, if only a bit over zealous when taken to Calvinistic extremes.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#52
Jul 8, 2018
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#52
Blain said:
Yeah this is indeed a very tricky one, one could contend that those who are saved were elected to be so and free will has nothing to do it but there are some things I have always wondered about this part.
It actually began when I got out of a debate with soemone about thsi very topic and was re readding the bible from the beginning when I guess this topic was still fresh in my mind and the first thing that kind of caught my attention was with God and adam and eve

He put the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and he forbade them from eating the tree yet they both did, this was the first time I considered the fact they both clearly were given orders not to do something but still chose to do it showing they had a choice to or not to
This garden was supposed to be heaven and always in the presence of God but it wasn't until they chose to disobey him that they were appointed to die and kicked out of the garden

This got me thinking if the garden is supposed to be like heaven on earth then when you were then labeled as sinful you are forbidden to ever enter the haven again it kind of seems to be like with heaven and hell in a sense
In heaven we will always be in his presence but in hell we are forbidden to ever enter heaven and always without his presence ever again Then going through the rest of the bible God has always used the same formula he says what to do and what not to do and also always says what will happen if we disobey and when we connect this to salvation if we are told to repent and accept Jesus as Lord and are warned what will happen if we do not then that begs the question if election is in fact how it works then why does he offer a choice of life or death heaven or hell obey or disobey repent or live according to our fleshly desires?
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Death, according to Greek, means "a separation". Separation (death) does not mean everlasting hell, in Deut 30:19, but a separation from our fellowship with God. Choosing life, is choosing to live in fellowship with God, and choosing to attempt to obey his commandments

God has given mankind the choice to live his life as mankind wants to, but mankind has no choice in his eternal deliverance, that is by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#53
Aug 4, 2020
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#53
ForestGreenCook said:
Death, according to Greek, means "a separation". Separation (death) does not mean everlasting hell, in Deut 30:19, but a separation from our fellowship with God. Choosing life, is choosing to live in fellowship with God, and choosing to attempt to obey his commandments

God has given mankind the choice to live his life as mankind wants to, but mankind has no choice in his eternal deliverance, that is by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.
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Luke 13.34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
They chose not .
Romans 10:21

“But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”

Acts 13 .
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#54
Jul 8, 2018
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#54
throughfaith said:
Commanding all men everywhere to repent and marvelling at peoples unbelief can only be consistent with the fact that people are able to repent and believe .
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Can you give me a scripture that says "marvelling at peoples unbelief" ?

We have been through these same discussions before, where you are trying to give the ability to the unregenerate natural man to believe in spiritual things, and I have given you scriptures that contradict your theory on the ability of the natural man.

Acts 17:29 Paul is referring to the men as "offspring" of God. Some people Jesus accused of being of their father the devil, so all men are not of the offspring of God. It is these people who are of the offspring of God that he is referencing with his statement of commanding all men everywhere to repent. That would not include the unregenerate natural man, who is not the offspring of God.
 
Budman

Budman

Senior Member
#55
Mar 9, 2014
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#55
Everyone is invited to be saved, but those who do not accept the call and the invitation are not chosen for heaven. Grace is not irresistible. Luke 13:34 is a good example of that. All people are invited to be saved, but many choose not to accept. God chooses (or "elects") for salvation and heaven only those who accept His invitation.

The Bible says: "He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

That clearly shows salvation is an individual choice. That's why Jesus said "whosover will, let him take the water of life freely."

I've used this analogy before, and I believe it's fitting: A pardon can be issued to a man on death row, setting him free, but that pardon is only a good as it's acceptance. If the man refuses the pardon, he has chosen to die. The pardon becomes little more than a piece of paper.

God offers pardon to everyone. They are free to choose to receive it or not. God has predestined to save anyone who will receive.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#56
Jul 8, 2018
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#56
throughfaith said:
Luke 13.34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
They chose not .
Romans 10:21

“But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”

Acts 13 .
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
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All of these scriptures you have quoted have reference to children of God, not the natural man.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#57
Aug 4, 2020
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#57
ForestGreenCook said:
Can you give me a scripture that says "marvelling at peoples unbelief" ?

We have been through these same discussions before, where you are trying to give the ability to the unregenerate natural man to believe in spiritual things, and I have given you scriptures that contradict your theory on the ability of the natural man.

Acts 17:29 Paul is referring to the men as "offspring" of God. Some people Jesus accused of being of their father the devil, so all men are not of the offspring of God. It is t8hese people who are of the offspring of God that he is referencing with his statement of commanding all men everywhere to repent. That would not include the unregenerate natural man, who is not the offspring of God.
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Mark 6:6

“And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#58
Aug 28, 2012
19,504
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#58
ForestGreenCook said:
Death, according to Greek, means "a separation". Separation (death) does not mean everlasting hell, in Deut 30:19, but a separation from our fellowship with God. Choosing life, is choosing to live in fellowship with God, and choosing to attempt to obey his commandments

God has given mankind the choice to live his life as mankind wants to, but mankind has no choice in his eternal deliverance, that is by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.
Click to expand...
I actually didn't know that was what death meant but it makes sense.
But I don't understand your logic God allows mankind freedom to choose to life and choose to live in fellowship with God but has no choice in his salvation?

When you say no choice in salvation do you mean that only by the grace and blood of Jesus Christ can we be saved or do you mean only certain people can be saved?
Because if the latter your logic seems to go against itself
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#59
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#59
Budman said:
Everyone is invited to be saved, but those who do not accept the call and the invitation are not chosen for heaven. Grace is not irresistible. Luke 13:34 is a good example of that. All people are invited to be saved, but many choose not to accept. God chooses (or "elects") for salvation and heaven only those who accept His invitation.

The Bible says: "He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

That clearly shows salvation is an individual choice. That's why Jesus said "whosover will, let him take the water of life freely."

I've used this analogy before, and I believe it's fitting: A pardon can be issued to a man on death row, setting him free, but that pardon is only a good as it's acceptance. If the man refuses the pardon, he has chosen to die. The pardon becomes little more than a piece of paper.

God offers pardon to everyone. They are free to choose to receive it or not. God has predestined to save anyone who will receive.
Click to expand...
Those whom Christ died for is limited to those that his Father gave him, and he said that he would not lose any of them,

Christ was a sacrifice that was offered to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance.

The regenerated people are given a choice to follow God's commandments, but it is not to get eternal life.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#60
Aug 4, 2020
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#60
ForestGreenCook said:
Those whom Christ died for is limited to those that his Father gave him, and he said that he would not lose any of them,

Christ was a sacrifice that was offered to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance.

The regenerated people are given a choice to follow God's commandments, but it is not to get eternal life.
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Great consolation. Like trying to enjoy a last meal before being sent to the electric chair . Awesome choice .
 
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