Shining Light on 1 Corinthians Chapter 15

[throughfaith]

To reject the need for water baptism is to reject the very counsel of God according to scripture:
Luke 7:30
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Yes they rejected the counsel of God . They did not believe.

 

[throughfaith]

Dear brother, since the beginning, you will not address my arguments. You post yours, and in the past I have answered. But since you turn to slander, I'm sure you won't be surprised when I don't answer. You know brother, JWs drive cars. So do Christians. According to your logic then, all Christians who drive cars are JWs. JWs believe a number of things that are correct, and they believe a lot of things that are incorrect. You do not possess full knowledge either. Does that make you a JW?

This Forum is for debating truths of the Bible. If you won't debate, please excuse those of us who do want to discuss if we don't take the time to answer your slanderous way of arguing.

Now, in the posting above, you answered my posting in which I said that one could forfeit the KINGDOM. You answered "we are SAVED". If English is not your mother tongue, I feel for you. But in English the word "KINGDOM" is a totally different word to "SAVED". If you want to debate, address what your opponent says. If you go off on another totally different theme, only a few will answer you. In English, the grammar counts. If you will not address the grammar, only a few will enter into futile debate. I won't. Here is my basis:

Romans 16:17; "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." If you think I am causing offense contrary to the doctrine, you are bound to avoid me - not contend. Likewise, If I think you are just looking for contention, I will avoid you.

2 Timothy 2:23; "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." The same argument is valid for this. If you think my postings generate foolishness or show unlearnedness, you are commanded to avoid me.

Titus 3:9; "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Same argument for here too.

I suggest, in the friendliest way, that you avoid me. On the other hand, I uphold your right to post what, and to who you like. But don't be surprised when I avoid you.

I'm fallible of course . We all are . I do struggle when it comes to the topic of baptism being necessary for salvation , as its an area I have had to defend in my ministry work with the cults and Catholics/ church of christ ect . So my heart is for those that are caught up in this teaching and those that suffer the consequences of this false teaching ( my believe on this ) Fair point in that yes I could have said things more graciously.

 

[Scribe]

Few seem to comprehend the Spiritual relevance of the water of which Jesus spoke.

And yet Jesus made a clear distinction between His water, and earthly water used for ceremonial cleansing.

Is earthly water efficacious in producing spiritual purity? I say no. What say you?

The first recorded miracle in John's gospel has Jesus changing
ceremonial cleansing water to wine, which represents His blood.

I think most mainline protestant churches understand the symbolism and the "act of faith" behind water baptism. We know that it is a public confession of an inward reality. We know that the water has no magical properties and that we are saved BEFORE we get wet. It is because we believe we are saved and we are declaring it openly, "I believe that Jesus Died for me, was buried, and rose from the dead, and that because of that I am forgiven, saved, and I am making a commitment to walk in newness of life" That part about Newness of life is that part that helps people in this spiritual war we are all in. Baptism is God's plan not Johns, or the apostles. We go along with it and we receive the benefits from it which are related to our having taken a tangible visible public step of faith. This should not be delayed as it so often is today. Many times it is delayed so long it really does seem to be a "check list" people feel they need to get completed "just in case" it really matters.

We know that the bread and wine of communion has no magical properties but we observe it as a reminder for ourselves, this act of faith teaches us the necessity of self examination on a regular basis.

Prayer is another often neglected "act of faith". We claim the promises of God and we declare to others how He is going to meet our needs etc, but many still have the age old "spirit is willing, but flesh is weak" syndrome when it comes to actually spending an hour in a garden seeking the face of God. Pray is God's method and we have not because we ask not or ask in doubt.
We should preach baptism and invite people to it as soon as they "get saved"
We should pray for everything, and make time everyday to get alone with God for an hour. Our flesh may not like it, our doctrinal heresy hunter friends may try to tell us we don't have to pray for an hour to be saved, but Prayer is God's plan and we should just do it whether we understand why it is necessary or not. Same with Baptism and the Lords Supper. Just do it. God knows why, we should just follow and discover it by obedience.

 

[Truth7t7]

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The same promise being extended to all nations, which they may not have fully comprehended for a minute but soon did, would continue to stress this command ( even to the gentiles who would hear the same message and I think any gentiles who were in the crowd that day), to be baptized in water as an act of faith identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

We need to get back to stressing it in our evangelism and get people baptized in water as an act of faith as soon as they make a decision to follow Christ. We would be biblical and standing on a sure foundation of scripture if we included it in every altar call.

You would think that we did not need another thread on baptism but I see a trend among some to reinterpret scriptures on baptism as not applying to us today or as if in an effort to explain how we are not saved by water baptism they go so far in another direction as to attempt to "understand" baptism in new ways never taught before in the history of the church. So for that reason we probably do need to continue to teach the scriptures on water baptism. Because few seem to comprehend it. The fear of violating a philosophy of Augustine, Calvin, or Luther and their interpretations have caused some to reject the plain teaching of scripture on calling the repentant to be baptized in water and believe on Jesus Christ. They are not adding to faith in Christ when preaching what the apostles preached about baptism. But because they are afraid of being accused of such a thing they are attempting to change the meaning on the command to baptize.

I fully believe in water BAPTISM, and I was baptized, however it's not a salvation issue, yes Christian's should be baptized, yes it should be taught and followed.

Belief and Confession, that's all ya need for salvation!

Roman's 10:9-10KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Magenta]

I think most mainline protestant churches understand the symbolism and the "act of faith" behind water baptism. We know that it is a public confession of an inward reality. We know that the water has no magical properties and that we are saved BEFORE we get wet. It is because we believe we are saved and we are declaring it openly, "I believe that Jesus Died for me, was buried, and rose from the dead, and that because of that I am forgiven, saved, and I am making a commitment to walk in newness of life" That part about Newness of life is that part that helps people in this spiritual war we are all in. Baptism is God's plan not Johns, or the apostles. We go along with it and we receive the benefits from it which are related to our having taken a tangible visible public step of faith. This should not be delayed as it so often is today. Many times it is delayed so long it really does seem to be a "check list" people feel they need to get completed "just in case" it really matters.

We know that the bread and wine of communion has no magical properties but we observe it as a reminder for ourselves, this act of faith teaches us the necessity of self examination on a regular basis.

Prayer is another often neglected "act of faith". We claim the promises of God and we declare to others how He is going to meet our needs etc, but many still have the age old "spirit is willing, but flesh is weak" syndrome when it comes to actually spending an hour in a garden seeking the face of God. Pray is God's method and we have not because we ask not or ask in doubt.
We should preach baptism and invite people to it as soon as they "get saved"
We should pray for everything, and make time everyday to get alone with God for an hour. Our flesh may not like it, our doctrinal heresy hunter friends may try to tell us we don't have to pray for an hour to be saved, but Prayer is God's plan and we should just do it whether we understand why it is necessary or not. Same with Baptism and the Lords Supper. Just do it. God knows why, we should just follow and discover it by obedience.

We are not talking to "most mainline protestant churches" ...

we are speaking to people who push water baptism as a requirement for salvation.

My desire to help alleviate this error is not me saying water baptism is meaningless, nor am
I teaching others to be disobedient. That is a favorite false narrative dishonest people take up.

For the record, I do not count you among them

 

[Truth7t7]

Dear brother, since the beginning, you will not address my arguments. You post yours, and in the past I have answered. But since you turn to slander, I'm sure you won't be surprised when I don't answer. You know brother, JWs drive cars. So do Christians. According to your logic then, all Christians who drive cars are JWs. JWs believe a number of things that are correct, and they believe a lot of things that are incorrect. You do not possess full knowledge either. Does that make you a JW?

This Forum is for debating truths of the Bible. If you won't debate, please excuse those of us who do want to discuss if we don't take the time to answer your slanderous way of arguing.

Now, in the posting above, you answered my posting in which I said that one could forfeit the KINGDOM. You answered "we are SAVED". If English is not your mother tongue, I feel for you. But in English the word "KINGDOM" is a totally different word to "SAVED". If you want to debate, address what your opponent says. If you go off on another totally different theme, only a few will answer you. In English, the grammar counts. If you will not address the grammar, only a few will enter into futile debate. I won't. Here is my basis:

Romans 16:17; "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." If you think I am causing offense contrary to the doctrine, you are bound to avoid me - not contend. Likewise, If I think you are just looking for contention, I will avoid you.

2 Timothy 2:23; "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." The same argument is valid for this. If you think my postings generate foolishness or show unlearnedness, you are commanded to avoid me.

Titus 3:9; "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Same argument for here too.

I suggest, in the friendliest way, that you avoid me. On the other hand, I uphold your right to post what, and to who you like. But don't be surprised when I avoid you.

No slander, you have taught that when people die they go to (THE GRAVE) this is in denial of a literal (Hell) for the wicked unsaved presently, just as 7th day Adventist and JW's teach, do you believe in a literal (Hell) I have asked without answer several times?

You teach Baptism is essential to enter the Kingdom, this is false.

Belief and Confession, that's all ya need for salvation!

Roman's 10:9-10KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[throughfaith]

To reject the need for water baptism is to reject the very counsel of God according to scripture:
Luke 7:30
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

To be baptised by John was to recognise that they were serious about their repentance and that Jesus is the only proper basis for the remission of sins .

 

[throughfaith]

Dear brother, since the beginning, you will not address my arguments. You post yours, and in the past I have answered. But since you turn to slander, I'm sure you won't be surprised when I don't answer. You know brother, JWs drive cars. So do Christians. According to your logic then, all Christians who drive cars are JWs. JWs believe a number of things that are correct, and they believe a lot of things that are incorrect. You do not possess full knowledge either. Does that make you a JW?

This Forum is for debating truths of the Bible. If you won't debate, please excuse those of us who do want to discuss if we don't take the time to answer your slanderous way of arguing.

Now, in the posting above, you answered my posting in which I said that one could forfeit the KINGDOM. You answered "we are SAVED". If English is not your mother tongue, I feel for you. But in English the word "KINGDOM" is a totally different word to "SAVED". If you want to debate, address what your opponent says. If you go off on another totally different theme, only a few will answer you. In English, the grammar counts. If you will not address the grammar, only a few will enter into futile debate. I won't. Here is my basis:

Romans 16:17; "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." If you think I am causing offense contrary to the doctrine, you are bound to avoid me - not contend. Likewise, If I think you are just looking for contention, I will avoid you.

2 Timothy 2:23; "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." The same argument is valid for this. If you think my postings generate foolishness or show unlearnedness, you are commanded to avoid me.

Titus 3:9; "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Same argument for here too.

I suggest, in the friendliest way, that you avoid me. On the other hand, I uphold your right to post what, and to who you like. But don't be surprised when I avoid you.

My lack of immediate response to your earlier posts has been a process of understanding where you are coming from . Which is not immediately apparent. As it takes time to assimilate each person's position .

 

[Scribe]

We are not talking to "most mainline protestant churches" ...

we are speaking to people who push water baptism as a requirement for salvation.

My desire to help alleviate this error is not me saying water baptism is meaningless, nor am
I teaching others to be disobedient. That is a favorite false narrative dishonest people take up.

For the record, I do not count you among them

I understand.

It is all due to the need in modern culture to identify an exact moment when one is "born again" and separate that from water baptism. Why we feel the need to argue it doctrinally is because of false teachings that have been promoted throughout church history.
The presentation of the Gospel does not require this however. It does not put an emphasis on identifying the moment one is born again or "regenerated." The Scripture emphasized the FACT that we are not the exact moment in the initial process of believing that it occurs. That is why simply praying a prayer from a prayer card for people who come to the altar does not automatically save them. We cannot tell whether they are are repenting or believing, only God knows that.

If we preach the way Peter preached, it may cause some seminary students to question whether we are suggesting that we are not saved unless we complete the church baptismal ceremony.

This is not a question that the first century audience listening to Peter had.

We could say to lost people, "repent of your sins, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ who has died for your sins and risen from the dead to offer you forgiveness and eternal life and be baptized today and decide to follow Jesus" and these lost people are not going to feel the need to slice up the doctrinal implications of baptism in water versus the believe and repent part. They are just going to receive it as all part of the GOOD NEWS that there is hope for them.

If the act of baptism in water is WHEN they truly are repenting, and believing, then so be it. It was not the water that saved them but the faith in Christ they had at that moment. Others had that faith and repentance a week before the baptism and that is when they were converted.

We can preach repentance, faith and be baptized and not be guilty of claiming that baptism in water saves us. It is a splitting of hairs invented after the initial birth of preaching the Gospel. I will follow the pattern I read in the bible and include baptism in my altar calls because Peter, Philip, and the tenure of the New Testament does. It is impossible that the New Testament ever excluded baptism when preaching the Gospel. This fine point cannot be over emphasized.

It is not necessary to always explain to people that the water baptism part does not save them. That causes more confusion for people who did not ask that question. This need to make it clear that water baptism does not save us is to me some sort of defending oneself from heresy hunters. It is not necessary and rarely makes any difference.

 

[Corban]

I'm fallible of course . We all are . I do struggle when it comes to the topic of baptism being necessary for salvation , as its an area I have had to defend in my ministry work with the cults and Catholics/ church of christ ect . So my heart is for those that are caught up in this teaching and those that suffer the consequences of this false teaching ( my believe on this ) Fair point in that yes I could have said things more graciously.

Just to have the record set straight, I believe that my posting was for another poster. If you felt addressed by it though, all is well. Also, my first posting, where I explain Baptism in 1st Corinthians 15:29, I'm sure you will agree that I did not say it is necessary for salvation. What sometimes happens is that a brother with a particular view is so fixed on his view that he answers me according to what his view is and not what I said. I'm used to this, and take no offense - though I might point it out.

I'm sure if you go back to my first posting (#2), you will not find a statement or allusion to Baptism for salvation.

Go well bro.

 

[Corban]

No slander, you have taught that when people die they go to (THE GRAVE) this is in denial of a literal (Hell) for the wicked unsaved presently, just as 7th day Adventist and JW's teach, do you believe in a literal (Hell) I have asked without answer several times?

You teach Baptism is essential to enter the Kingdom, this is false.

Belief and Confession, that's all ya need for salvation!

Roman's 10:9-10KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

In my posting I showed how you change concepts. I say, "KINGDOM" and you answer "SALVATION" (in bold red for you to see - or maybe not). I say something concerning the KINGDOM and you answer something concerning SALVATION. I think, brother, you are very mixed up.

By the way brother, was it not you that quoted at length about "those in the grave" from John 5:28. Now you suddenly call it a JWs doctrine. But YOU taught it - and so does the Bible. The BODY goes to the grave, the SOUL goes to Hades and the SPIRIT goes to God in heaven (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). Just so you don't get more mixed up, note that in Acts Chapter 2, David was still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection, and ten days after His ascension - AND HIS BODY WAS STILL IN THE GRAVE!

 

[Blik]

Yes they rejected the counsel of God . They did not believe.

But the Pharisees thought they were obeying God better than Christ was, they believed in their dogma. They just believed in their way above the Lord's way. They added so much to scripture they even measured how far they could walk on the Sabbath.

We need to often check our church's doctrines against the doctrines of the Lord. Has anyone added or taken away from what the Lord tells us? I question Easter, for example and am scolded often for saying so. Passover is in scripture, is Easter? The KJV translated the word Passover with the word Easter.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

First and foremost, context is crucial when evaluating any scripture. The context of the chapter in question pertains specifically to aspects of the resurrection.

Many mistakenly conclude that the first two verses of 1 Corinthians chapter 15 confirm that an individual need only believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus in order to be saved. The gospel message certainly begins with that information; however, it does not stop there.

Paul begins his letter by reminding the group that he declared to them the gospel by which they were saved. (verses 1-2) He goes on to point out a specific part of the gospel message that he and they received FIRST; that Jesus died for their sins, was buried and resurrected. (verses 3-4) He then delves into concepts associated with resurrection throughout the rest of the chapter.

Apostle Paul’s comment about Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection being what is shared with people FIRST indicates there is other information included in the gospel message. This truth is seen in scripture relevant to all groups of humanity: (Jews, Gentiles and Samaritans) Acts 2:22-41; 8:12-17; 10:37-48. In each of these scripture references we see individuals hearing the word of God and complying with the command to be water baptized in Jesus’ name and receiving the Holy Ghost as well.

Notice in 1 Corinthians 15 verse 29 Paul specifically brings up water baptism. He questions why people are getting baptized for the dead if they don't believe the dead will be resurrected. Even though baptism for the dead is not biblical it speaks to the fact that born again believers realized their own water baptism played a part in their spiritual rebirth. And as such, they were doing it in hopes of changing the fate of relatives and/or friends who had not submitted to it for themselves before meeting their demise.

Clearly one’s repentance and water baptism would hold no significance without Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. Jesus’ sacrifice is what makes the NT spiritual rebirth possible at all. Even though Jesus died for the sins of all humanity, not all will have their personal sins washed away. It is through one's belief and obedience to God's plan of salvation as expressed in the word that all are given the opportunity to be become born again children of God.

So much to on.....I'll just tackle couple of obvious ones
1..you twisted a lot of scripture to make the verse(s) fit your view
2. The gospel has to be simple .. it is the starting place for those newly born again

'man is separated from God because of sin, Jesus Christ paid the penalty God demands to forgive sin for those believe, which brings peace with God'​

3. There is no command to be water baptized
4. Baptism for the dead is heresy, whatever state you are in when you die, that is how it remains.

 

[Blik]

The devil is filled with fury, because he knows his time is short. Demons know their end will be one of torment.

I can't speak for how demons think, I only know what scripture tells me, but I would bet demons are still trying to win. They are pretty stupid or they wouldn't have rebelled in the first place.

 

[Scribe]

3. There is no command to be water baptized

I don't want to get into a long argument but I don't understand why anyone would say that.

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"
That is a commandment.

Acts 10:48..And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
That is a commandment.

Why do I keep reading people post that there is no commandment to baptize? I can post some others as well but this should be enough.

 

[Guojing]

I don't want to get into a long argument but I don't understand why anyone would say that.

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"
That is a commandment.

Why do I keep reading people post that there is no commandment to baptize? I can post some others as well but this should be enough.

People seem to always remember vs 19 but never the next verse, vs 20 "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

Do you actually obey this commandment to teach others to obey everything Jesus commanded the 12, say just in the Book of Matthew?

Do you know he actually commanded them to follow the Law of Moses too? (Matthew 5:19-20)

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I don't want to get into a long argument but I don't understand why anyone would say that.

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"
That is a commandment.

Acts 10:48..And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
That is a commandment.

Why do I keep reading people post that there is no commandment to baptize? I can post some others as well but this should be enough.

Since baptize (baptizo) means to fully immerse, are you sure it does not mean in that context to immerse them in the gospel?
Context is everything.

None of the apostles was baptized in water.....except Paul who had his baptism into the Nazarene priesthood before he was called as an apostle. Jesus baptized no one. His baptism was also of the as priest and king of Nazarene priesthood.
Tertulian said it just gets you wet.

I am not against water baptism as the symbol of the old man being dead and buried and the new man come to new life. I was baptized (immersion). It just does not have a place as a commandment. The only thing Jesus said we MUST do is be born again.

 

[calibob]

Few seem to comprehend the Spiritual relevance of the water of which Jesus spoke.

And yet Jesus made a clear distinction between His water, and earthly water used for ceremonial cleansing.

Is earthly water efficacious in producing spiritual purity? I say no. What say you?

The first recorded miracle in John's gospel has Jesus changing
ceremonial cleansing water to wine, which represents His blood.

Wow! Good call!

 

[Magenta]

It is not necessary to always explain to people that the water baptism part does not save them. That causes more confusion for people who did not ask that question. This need to make it clear that water baptism does not save us is to me some sort of defending oneself from heresy hunters. It is not necessary and rarely makes any difference.

Those who teach water baptism saves need to be countered with the truth, for they are preaching a false gospel.

In Matthew 16:6–12, Jesus compared the false teaching of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Herodians to leaven, and warned His disciples against being taken in by false teachers... because a small amount of leaven corrupts the whole lump. Paul also warned against false teachers in very strong language. You acknowledge that water baptism does not save, but think addressing the issue of adding to the gospel is somehow redundant. Do you never counter false teachings, then?

 

[Magenta]

I can't speak for how demons think, I only know what scripture tells me, but I would bet demons are still trying to win. They are pretty stupid or they wouldn't have rebelled in the first place.

That was Scripture. And you did speak to what demons know.