Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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throughfaith

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The writings of Paul are not mere philosophy.
See what you did there..No we start with the bible and not with Philosophy..In Christianity there's a whole load of folks assuming they know the intricate workings from Gods perspective. Theological determinism , God looking down the corridors of time , the mind of God . Molinism , Open theism, Man's free will , God's sovereignty, Can God create a rock so big that he can't liftism
 

GraceAndTruth

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here I must say it is both the death of Christ and His risen and ascended life that saves.
(Romans 5:9-10)
The death was the means, the blood is the cause.
Death was overcome by Christ's resurrection
Salvation (forgiveness of sins thru peace with God) were accomplished by shedding His blood.
That is how I see it. Because the death did not satisfy God's wrath but the blood did.
 

GraceAndTruth

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I see throughfaith found you........bet you can hardly wait for Truth7t7. :ROFL:
Good thread.....I will be back.....:eek:
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You only get to have it your way at Burger King.

The sin of Adam, imputed to everyone, brought physical and spiritual death.
The physical we understand, at some point we all die physically, not because we sinned but because of the stain of sin from Adam.
This does not mean that people are not free from sinning or confessing the sin (which is for our own benefit to shine a light on it)
None of God's grace that was bought for us with the blood of Christ is given to anyone who is not born again. The fact that Jesus tells us we MUST be born again.....He was telling Nicodemus (who did not understand) that understanding comes with being born again (which is indicative that Nic was not born again at that time) We are all DEAD in sin and trespasses. The word "dead" as used in these scriptures indicates we are a CORPSE (check the Strong's). Can a corpse be atoned for? To say yes is to propose that people can be saved after they are a dead.

Colossians 2:13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.

Ephesians 2:1 - And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, ... For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You do not get to have your wendy’s

the verse says the penalty of sin is death. It does not say the penalty of Adams sin is death

thus There is no argument, unless you are trying to force your belief on scripture
 

OIC1965

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The death was the means, the blood is the cause.
Death was overcome by Christ's resurrection
Salvation (forgiveness of sins thru peace with God) were accomplished by shedding His blood.
That is how I see it. Because the death did not satisfy God's wrath but the blood did.
I agree with most of that, (except I would say that the blood and His death were both part of the propitiation, for He needed to taste death for every man.) But the resurrection demonstrated the acceptance by the Father of His sacrifice, and also we have Jesus’ present ministry as Advocate and High Priest.
 

OIC1965

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See what you did there..No we start with the bible and not with Philosophy..In Christianity there's a whole load of folks assuming they know the intricate workings from Gods perspective. Theological determinism , God looking down the corridors of time , the mind of God . Molinism , Open theism, Man's free will , God's sovereignty, Can God create a rock so big that he can't liftism
I didnt day of those things, except mind of God. Do you not think that God has a mind? You mean like electricity doesn’t have a mind? Impersonal God? What are you arguing for?
 

Budman

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Mar 9, 2014
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Well, I see evidences that Paul did preach the necessity for repentance:
2 Cor 7:10

10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
KJV

2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
KJV

And the passage below, in I Peter, shows that if believers fail to be diligent in keeping sin out of their lives - the result is losing their salvation:

2 Peter 1:5-9

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
KJV
And the passage below, shows that the need for repentance is not just a one-time thing - no longer needed. No, it is needed:
Matt 5:21-24

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
KJV
Also, Jesus taught the need to pray for forgiveness, in the model prayer He gave. Being a model prayer, it represents things we should pray for daily in daily life:

Matt 6:9-15

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
KJV
Asking for forgiveness of sins after conversion makes zero sense. Again, why ask Jesus to do what He has already done?

We are totally forgiven - past, present, and future. Jesus died once, and it worked the first time - no repeat necessary. ALL of our sins were in the future when Jesus died.

"By one offering, He made us perfect forever." (Hebrews 10:14)

We became, at the moment of conversion, sinless, holy, righteous, and perfect - forever. How? Because we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us!

We are as sinless, holy, righteous, and perfect as Jesus is.

Let that sink in.

He remembers our sins no more, they have been removed as far as the east is from the west, He keeps no record of our wrongs, It is finished.

So why do you see the need to keep asking for forgiveness?
 

throughfaith

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I didnt day of those things, except mind of God. Do you not think that God has a mind? You mean like electricity doesn’t have a mind? Impersonal God? What are you arguing for?
What do you know about God from the scriptures ? what has been revealed. Not " Well i think God can or cannot do this and that .
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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If we were saved based on command keeping we would all perish. We are justified by faith in Christ, and then we obey Him in love.

The Law says “ the one who performs will live”. The Gospel says “ the one who believes will be saved”

I don’t want to be saved by anything but the righteousness that is by faith in Christ. Does that mean I don’t strive against sin or strive to keep His commandments? No I strive after these things. But they are not what I base my eternal hope on. If they were, I would be most wretched.
it’s not about what you or I think but about what Jesus said is sort of
My point so what did the lord say ?

Concerning grace brother , there are two types of grace in scripture one is of God and saves us teaching us the other says grace means keeping Gods commandments doesn’t apply that’s not from God

we have to learn about grace and truth and how they work together and how grace alone apart from truth is easily distorted into a license to sin without consequence one is of God one is of the enemy

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


There is that form of grace that says “ I may sin freely I’m already saved , I can serve sin and live for myself in this world do as I wish because Jesus died for my sins past present and future “ that grace comes from the enemy through carriers of false doctrines denying the truth of the gospel and introducing thier own interpretations and teachings about salvation . They deny the lords word and teach their own this was foretold

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


and it’s effect on the church would be terrible

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.



And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”

‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬


the way of truth is the way Jesus set forth for all men to accept and believe and be saved. And sent to all the world





The grave that’s distorted through denying the truth is one thing but the truth saves .Then there is the grace of God that has appeared unto all Men and brings salvation



“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That is summarized here

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These. things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”

‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We should be sure to define grave in line with truth that will save a believer and bring us into repentance it’s about faith that comes from believing the word

Gods grace comes along with Jesus word his teachings the truth of God manifest to all in the gospel of the kingdom he taught. Those which were meant to accept and believe and be saved by that faith which is imparted to us by belief alone . they teach us about denying ungodliness and worldly lusts and that we are Meant to live right in this world while we wait for our hope of eternal
Life in the kingdom .

that’s a great summary by Paul there in Titus’ letter of what Jesus ministry does for us it’s a matter of believing or rejecting his doctrine Salvation is about believing the truth and receiving the grave of God therin
 

Budman

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Mar 9, 2014
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Why must you always flip it like that? Every time you come at it like this. "how much do I have to do?, what's enough to know I'm saved"?

It's such a straw man be cause you're not working to earn something. You already have it, From Him, For FREE, and you know this and I know you know that we know this, "come on man". His Spirit changes us. I can only speak for myself, but I desire to please Him now, and when I do something outside His will then His Spirit lets me know, and convicts me, then guides me back towards all truth. This is what His word says will happen as well. It's in no way trying to earn anything and you always go to this kind of perspective like you're trying to turn it into a works salvation thing. NO! Just NO! We are ALREADY SAVED. Get it, and by His power, always for His glory we WANT to please Him. How do you still struggle with this? You are not at all seeing it clearly, or at all being intellectually fair with what's being said to you. To be honest you seem to have a problem with a Christian who works. Why? Are you doing nothing for the Lord?

Sorry I missed your post the first time around. It's good to see you again. :)

I have no problem with any Christian who works. I have always said we should live a life that is pleasing to the Lord. The problem I have are with those who say one "must" or "will" or it's proof one isn't saved.

Like you did here:

Your life, habits, outlook, complete way of thinking from the inside out has not been changed by our Lord Jesus the Christ? I have to imagine it has if you're saved, knowing Him myself and all not to mention this lining up perfectly with His revealed word, but if it hasn't in your life, and works just seem to make you cringe and cause you to always rush to downplay them and state why they are not necessary instead of encouraging them in His work and building the kingdom, then just maybe you haven't been born again.
Sorry, but after conversion, God doesn't abrogate our free will. We still have freedom to choose to serve or not.

Our very natures are changed by our Creator and we are made whole and reconciled to Him.
And yet you continue to sin. As do I, and every single Christian on earth.

What you seem to be suggesting makes no sense at all, never, not one of the 1,000's of times you rush in with this point has it ever made sense in light of the truth.
"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15).

So much for your "maybe they're not born again" idea.

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered." (Romans 4:6-7).

Our righteousness is imputed without works. So, that shoots down your idea that one will work as evidence for salvation. As you state below:

All I gather is you think works are irrelevant and unnecessary, as if it's possible for God to save someone with no purpose, or even more clearly that a saved person can not work for Him, that that's even possible.
Salvation is a gift with no strings attached. By grace - unmerited. Period. You have a pride problem, and your works are an egotistical badge of honor. How well did the church at Corinth behave? Were they not still brethren?

Yes, they were.

If they had not stopped their behavior, would they have remained brethren?

Yep.

And yet, It seems certain that if you had been there to observe them, you certainly would have judged them as "unsaved."

Are there carnal Christians, Jim? The Bible says there are.

The key word being "Christians".
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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What do you know about God from the scriptures ? what has been revealed. Not " Well i think God can or cannot do this and that .
I know He has a mind. Let’s start there.

Romans 11:34
1 Corinthians 2:16

I know that He has knowledge.

I know He has Omniscience.

Psalm 139:1-6
Acts 15:18
1 John 3:20

Declares the end from the beginning

Isaiah 46:10

So to say He doesn’t foreknow us until we believe is to deny all the scriptures related to His Omniscience.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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I know He has a mind. Let’s start there.

Romans 11:34
1 Corinthians 2:16

I know that He has knowledge.

I know He has Omniscience.

Psalm 139:1-6
Acts 15:18
1 John 3:20

Declares the end from the beginning

Isaiah 46:10

So to say He doesn’t foreknow us until we believe is to deny all the scriptures related to His Omniscience.
I think a lot of folks make too much of what is revealed and not revealed. Most of what we see in the scriptures is ' in time ' like election and Predestination.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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it’s not about what you or I think but about what Jesus said is sort of
My point so what did the lord say ?

Concerning grace brother , there are two types of grace in scripture one is of God and saves us teaching us the other says grace means keeping Gods commandments doesn’t apply that’s not from God

we have to learn about grace and truth and how they work together and how grace alone apart from truth is easily distorted into a license to sin without consequence one is of God one is of the enemy

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


There is that form of grace that says “ I may sin freely I’m already saved , I can serve sin and live for myself in this world do as I wish because Jesus died for my sins past present and future “ that grace comes from the enemy through carriers of false doctrines denying the truth of the gospel and introducing thier own interpretations and teachings about salvation . They deny the lords word and teach their own this was foretold

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


and it’s effect on the church would be terrible

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.



And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”

‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬


the way of truth is the way Jesus set forth for all men to accept and believe and be saved. And sent to all the world





The grave that’s distorted through denying the truth is one thing but the truth saves .Then there is the grace of God that has appeared unto all Men and brings salvation



“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That is summarized here

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These. things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”

‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We should be sure to define grave in line with truth that will save a believer and bring us into repentance it’s about faith that comes from believing the word

Gods grace comes along with Jesus word his teachings the truth of God manifest to all in the gospel of the kingdom he taught. Those which were meant to accept and believe and be saved by that faith which is imparted to us by belief alone . they teach us about denying ungodliness and worldly lusts and that we are Meant to live right in this world while we wait for our hope of eternal
Life in the kingdom .

that’s a great summary by Paul there in Titus’ letter of what Jesus ministry does for us it’s a matter of believing or rejecting his doctrine Salvation is about believing the truth and receiving the grave of God therin
I don’t believe in deliberately, carelessly, willfully, and callously living in sin because I can get away with it. I believe in walking in the Spirit and putting to death the deeds of the flesh.

But I put zero confidence in my works to save me. Christ is the ONE and ONLY Saviour.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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I think a lot of folks make too much of what is revealed and not revealed. Most of what we see in the scriptures is ' in time ' like election and Predestination.
you still have not presented anything that supports your view of election and predestination.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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you still have not presented anything that supports your view of election and predestination.
I think the only reason you don't understand your own view of election and Predestination is because it a) doesn't do or serve any purpose and b) It doesn't make sense.
aside from the fact its not biblical .
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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I think the only reason you don't understand your own view of election and Predestination is because it a) doesn't do or serve any purpose and b) It doesn't make sense.
aside from the fact its not biblical .
I think the Biblical view is that God has predestined, or "elected" to save anyone who will place their faith in Jesus Christ.

Just my two cents.

Carry on. :)
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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Come on now I've been at this for weeks 😆
How you came to think Ephesians 1:5 teaches that predestination happens after conversion is unfathomable. The syntax of that verse and the surrounding context make that utterly untenable

you say that God foreknows and predestinate us to adoption after we believe. But Romans 8:28-30 puts foreknpwledge and predestination BEFORE calling and before justification.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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I think the Biblical view is that God has predestined, or "elected" to save anyone who will place their faith in Jesus Christ.

Just my two cents.

Carry on. :)
Correct.

And

A. this occurred before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4-5,
2 Timothy 1:9.

B. God knew from all eternity who would believe and elected and predestined them accordingly.

(Foreknowledge. 1 Peter 1:1-2: Romans 8:28-30).