Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[throughfaith]

That’s like saying non Calvinists are not semi pelagian in every sense

The accusation of Gnosticism is a smear that non Calvinists use against Calvinists, and the accusation of semi pelagianism is a smear that Calvinists use against Non Calvinists

It’s time to stop the smears and love one another. There are Calvinists who are saved and there are non Calvinists who are saved. Love one another. This is Christ’s desire one John 17

Well that sounds good . But we have a problem. We have a Jesus who has died for everyone, the whole world .
Then we have another Jesus who did not ,but only some and not others . On Purpose.
Then we have a Gospel that says everyone can believe. And another that says no , God only causes belief in those he saves . This is just the major differences, let alone all the other points . The reason we are in a mess is because we do not discern the issue .

 

[OIC1965]

I would recommend his dissertation for a more thorough study . But its not difficult to research the beginnings of Calvinism . It doesn't show up until the fourth century ,until Augustines debate with palagius. After that hey presto we start having concepts differing about what happened in eternity past and that faith is a work then regeneration precedes faith. It starts with Augustine .

I think you need to read Clement of Rome and some of the other ECF fathers again.

 

[OIC1965]

Well that sounds good . But we have a problem. We have a Jesus who has died for everyone, the whole world .
Then we have another Jesus who did not ,but only some and not others . On Purpose.
Then we have a Gospel that says everyone can believe. And another that says no , God only causes belief in those he saves . This is just the major differences, let alone all the other points . The reason we are in a mess is because we do not discern the issue .

And then we have you that denies election altogether.

 

[OIC1965]

Well that sounds good . But we have a problem. We have a Jesus who has died for everyone, the whole world .
Then we have another Jesus who did not ,but only some and not others . On Purpose.
Then we have a Gospel that says everyone can believe. And another that says no , God only causes belief in those he saves . This is just the major differences, let alone all the other points . The reason we are in a mess is because we do not discern the issue .

Jesus did die for all, but His death only saves those who believe. And it was done on purpose that way.

 

[MyrtleTrees]

What sins are "accidental"? Does God view them as such? Or does He see them as sin all the same?

No. Some sins are of the accidental kind. While others are not accidental - but are instead willful sins. People are judged for all willful sins against God. It isn't possible to be 100% sinlessly perfect - only Jesus was capable of that.

Here is a passage that demonstrates the unintentional kinds of sins that

 

[MyrtleTrees]

What sins are "accidental"? Does God view them as such? Or does He see them as sin all the same?

Here is an example of unintentional sins, that God forgives whenever Christians sincerely repent of them:
Paul here - is describing the regular struggle a Christian has against unintentional sins in their lives:
Rom 7:20-25

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV
Heb 13:4

4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
KJV
Rev 21:26-27

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life
KJV
And here's an example of how God forgives the sins of all those who sincerely repent of their sins:
1 John 1:9-10

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
KJV
So there's a huge difference between forgiven sins and unforgiven sins. And between intentional sins and unintentional sins. One example of unintentional sins, commonly is in our thoughts. Our thoughts often displease God. But if we repent sincerely as of other unintentional sins - He always forgives us.

 

[OIC1965]

I would recommend his dissertation for a more thorough study . But its not difficult to research the beginnings of Calvinism . It doesn't show up until the fourth century ,until Augustines debate with palagius. After that hey presto we start having concepts differing about what happened in eternity past and that faith is a work then regeneration precedes faith. It starts with Augustine .

Did the ECF believe in eternal security?

If you deny election on the basis of ECF, what about once saved always saved?

Which ECF taught that

Note. I believe in the security of the believer.

 

[MyrtleTrees]

Accepting Jesus as master of your life is not how someone is saved .

Sorry we don't agree on that.
Luke 16:13

13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
KJV
It says one must receive Jesus as "Lord" - that is another word for "Master."
Rom 10:9

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
KJV

John 13:14

14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
KJV

 

[OIC1965]

Sorry we don't agree on that.
Luke 16:13

13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
KJV
It says one must receive Jesus as "Lord" - that is another word for "Master."
Rom 10:9

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
KJV

John 13:14

14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
KJV

I think we are saved by grace through faith alone, but also that as believers, placing ourselves under the Lordship of Christ is the only rational course of action

Jesus did not merely say to make believers. He also said “ make disciples”.

If converts do not become disciples, we are not succeeding in the great commission.

 

[soggykitten]

So when we believe in Jesus we are change and no longer live in sin, am I correct?

No longer live in sin, example helping the poor.
is that work salvation? Because helping the poor is doing something, or work?

No, that isn't work salvation. That's the saved Christian responding to the leading of the holy spirit to serve as God's church those in need.

However it is considered works salvation by those who hold to the idea all they need to do is believe in Jesus.

 

[soggykitten]

Sorry we don't agree on that.
Luke 16:13

13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
KJV
It says one must receive Jesus as "Lord" - that is another word for "Master."
Rom 10:9

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
KJV

John 13:14

14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
KJV

Amen!

 

[soggykitten]

Accepting Jesus as master of your life is not how someone is saved .

It is how the sinner is saved in Christ and becomes a Christian.

What tradition would you be referring to? You and those who agree with you.

 

[OIC1965]

No, that isn't work salvation. That's the saved Christian responding to the leading of the holy spirit to serve as God's church those in need.

However it is considered works salvation by those who hold to the idea all they need to do is believe in Jesus.

One should not help the poor to earn credits with God towards salvation. One should help the poor out of love for Christ and man.

Once you believe, you’re saved. You dont have to add anything. But God saves us to serve. Ephesians 2:10

When Jesus healed Peter’s mother in law, she rose up and served. The serving did not in any way earn or pay back the healing. It was just the reasonable and rational response to Grace.

 

[OIC1965]

One should not help the poor to earn credits with God towards salvation. One should help the poor out of love for Christ and man.

Once you believe, you’re saved. You dont have to add anything. But God saves us to serve. Ephesians 2:10

When Jesus healed Peter’s mother in law, she rose up and served. The serving did not in any way earn or pay back the healing. It was just the reasonable and rational response to Grace.

Im not accusing anyone, but just juxtaposing two views. One wrong one right.

 

[soggykitten]

Worthy?
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
No one is ' worthy ' apart from Jesus.

Yes, worthy.
Sending Out the Twelve Apostles

Matthew 10:5 Jesus sent out these twelve, instructing them as follows:[m] “Do not go on a road that leads to Gentile regions[n] and do not enter any Samaritan town.[o] 6 Go[p] instead to the lost sheep[q] of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near!’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead,[r] cleanse lepers,[s] cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. 9 Do not take gold, silver, or copper[t] in your belts, 10 no bag[u] for the journey, or an extra tunic,[v] or sandals or staff,[w] for the worker deserves his provisions. 11 Whenever[x] you enter a town or village,[y] find out who is worthy there[z] and stay with them[aa] until you leave. 12 As you enter the house, greet those within it.[ab] 13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come on it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.[ac] 14 And if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your message, shake the dust off[ad] your feet as you leave that house or that town. 15 I tell you the truth,[ae] it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom and Gomorrah[af] on the day of judgment than for that town!


At this point I feel led to ask a question. Is this site dedicated to a particular denominational teaching?
Thus far I've encountered those who dismiss baptism, insist the sinner is not worthy of Christ, insist we are not led by the holy spirit to serve God as his church (Christians) because that is considered works salvation.

It all seems to be a constant amid some here.That is why I'm wondering being there are more than one person espousing such things if there is a teaching that is upheld by this site that others of us may not know about.

 

[soggykitten]

One should not help the poor to earn credits with God towards salvation. One should help the poor out of love for Christ and man.

Once you believe, you’re saved. You dont have to add anything. But God saves us to serve. Ephesians 2:10

When Jesus healed Peter’s mother in law, she rose up and served. The serving did not in any way earn or pay back the healing. It was just the reasonable and rational response to Grace.

No one has ever said a thing about earning credits. Please don't put words into my mouth. And please don't abrogate the scripture.

 

[soggykitten]

Was the Penitent Woman saved apart from baptism? (Luke 7:37:50).

Was the Paralytic Man saved apart from baptism? (Matthew 9:2).

Was the Publican saved apart from baptism? (Luke 18:13-14).

Was the Thief on the Cross saved apart from baptism? (Luke 23:39-43).

Was Cornelius and those with him saved before baptism? (Acts 10:44-48).

Since the answer to these is YES - your whole case completely falls apart.

And I will ask you this once again: If one places their faith in Jesus and is born again, then dies before they are baptized, do they go to heaven?

No need to ever ask me your question once again. The bible answers it as did I. You reject both. It isn't going to be belabored when you deny scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus did die for all, but His death only saves those who believe. And it was done on purpose that way.

Amen

Thus no one has an excuse

 

[soggykitten]

Notice I reject the gnostic version of election .
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)
Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)
Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

Please detail the gnostic version of election.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No one has ever said a thing about earning credits. Please don't put words into my mouth. And please don't abrogate the scripture.

You say it. You just refuse to admit it

If we nice a god convinced you that is in essence what you believe. You will find great freedom if you repent