The natural man
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Just revealing to you why you reject the truth of Gods word. You simply will not understand what God is saying because you don't agree with God. You reveal your choice between light and darkness by how you choose to understand scripture. You are on the wrong side of understanding scripture and resistant to accepting truth. You are making your choice to disbelieve.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Aaahhh! Now you've opened the flood gates. It is the glory of man set in line a single logical approach to a logical end. He is very good at that. But it is God's glory to manage two or more equally logical lines that seem to be opposed. We men like Israel OR the Church. God must only have ONE people and all dealings must be the same. God has three peoples and each is dealt with quite differently, but without breaking His righteousness. And so it is with rebirth. Consider this scripture text: Ephesians 2:1-6:
1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
The "death" spoken of here is physical death. Romans 6:23 says that death is the wages of sin, and sin, the sin-nature of Adam causes trespasses. The flesh is polluted unto death by Adam's nature, and by its fruit (Rom.5:12). Some theologians take this "death" spoken of here as "spiritual death", but verse 2 talks of walking in trespasses an sins, not INHERITING death. Added to this, Christ, with whom we are raised up, did not go this way. Christ was not raised from spiritual death. He was raised from physical death. Finally a spirit cannot die and there is no record of a spirit dying in the whole Bible. The solution to physical death is to be "raised up".
Now, you and I are both alive and writing, so physical death has not come for us yet, and we must wait for the coming of the Lord for resurrection (1st Cor.15:23; 1st Thess.4:15-17). But the above verses TWICE say that I HAVE been (past tense) raised up, and not recently. I have been raised up WITH CHRIST. Now, he was raised up nearly 2,000 years ago! So my question to you is;
"Were you resurrected 2,000 years ago with Christ, or must you still die, and enjoy resurrection on the last day when Jesus descends with the shout and the trumpet?"
If you can answer this, you will answer your own question above - that is, when were the Old Testament saints born again? I hate to say this, but you'll have the answer if you read my postings again - and believe them. It just sounds presumptuous, but I have explained it at length. You are hearing it for the first time and aour theological immune system is rejecting it. But the fact remains that you were raised up WITH Christ BUT you have to wait for resurrection. Both are true, but man doesn't like such things. There isn't a single line of logic. Here there are two. You and I work in TIME, and your and my experience is dictated by time. But to God, Jesus is a grain of Wheat. And just after He died He released that intrinsic LIFE that is dormant in a seed, and you were raised up WITH HIM - because you were always IN Him.
If Christ is that Spirit that gives Life, you were IN Him IN LIFE as soon as He was a Man. But in your experience, you were probably born again 20 years ago. So when was Moses born again?
Well .... while you consider that, when were the Corinthians born again? 1 Corinthians 4:15 says; "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." According to this, Paul begot them when he preached the gospel. But if they were IN Christ, when did they possess His LIFE?
1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
The "death" spoken of here is physical death. Romans 6:23 says that death is the wages of sin, and sin, the sin-nature of Adam causes trespasses. The flesh is polluted unto death by Adam's nature, and by its fruit (Rom.5:12). Some theologians take this "death" spoken of here as "spiritual death", but verse 2 talks of walking in trespasses an sins, not INHERITING death. Added to this, Christ, with whom we are raised up, did not go this way. Christ was not raised from spiritual death. He was raised from physical death. Finally a spirit cannot die and there is no record of a spirit dying in the whole Bible. The solution to physical death is to be "raised up".
Now, you and I are both alive and writing, so physical death has not come for us yet, and we must wait for the coming of the Lord for resurrection (1st Cor.15:23; 1st Thess.4:15-17). But the above verses TWICE say that I HAVE been (past tense) raised up, and not recently. I have been raised up WITH CHRIST. Now, he was raised up nearly 2,000 years ago! So my question to you is;
"Were you resurrected 2,000 years ago with Christ, or must you still die, and enjoy resurrection on the last day when Jesus descends with the shout and the trumpet?"
If you can answer this, you will answer your own question above - that is, when were the Old Testament saints born again? I hate to say this, but you'll have the answer if you read my postings again - and believe them. It just sounds presumptuous, but I have explained it at length. You are hearing it for the first time and aour theological immune system is rejecting it. But the fact remains that you were raised up WITH Christ BUT you have to wait for resurrection. Both are true, but man doesn't like such things. There isn't a single line of logic. Here there are two. You and I work in TIME, and your and my experience is dictated by time. But to God, Jesus is a grain of Wheat. And just after He died He released that intrinsic LIFE that is dormant in a seed, and you were raised up WITH HIM - because you were always IN Him.
If Christ is that Spirit that gives Life, you were IN Him IN LIFE as soon as He was a Man. But in your experience, you were probably born again 20 years ago. So when was Moses born again?
Well .... while you consider that, when were the Corinthians born again? 1 Corinthians 4:15 says; "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." According to this, Paul begot them when he preached the gospel. But if they were IN Christ, when did they possess His LIFE?
I am not sure which concordance that was -> provided through Biblehub
Your postings are always bright and encouraging. God bless.
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I think so. I'm not sure if you'll agree with me though. Here is the context of 1st Peter 1:2-5.
2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
There are five things mentioned here in sequence. They are;
In the whole Old Testament, with ONE exception, the INHERITANCE refers to the Good Land of Canaan. The one exception is that the Levites, who received no land, would inherit God (Nu.18:20). Now, this is almost the same in the New Testament. The Christian will inherit God, God will take the Christian as His inheritance, but the majority references to "inheritance" for the Christian is THE EARTH. The reason for this is that by being IN Christ, the Christian becomes seed of Abraham (Gal.3:29). Galatians 3 and Ephesians 2 build a case for how a Christian can inherit the earth without being an Israelite. Ephesians does it by adoption by God, and Galatians does it by being in Christ who is the Chief Son of Abraham.
So the sequence above in 1st Peter is to reassure the Jewish convert that his INHERITANCE is intact. Point
1st Peter 1:2-5 does address the rebirth, but the main point is RESURRECTION for the INHERITANCE. And there, we were "raised WITH Christ" because in regards to the Heavenly INHERITANCE ON EARTH, we need "Celestial glory" in resurrection (1st Cor.15:40).
Make sense?
2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
There are five things mentioned here in sequence. They are;
- The blood of Jesus
- Being begotten by God
- A lively hope brought on by the resurrection of Jesus
- An inheritance that will never fade or perish
- A salvation only instituted at the latter time
In the whole Old Testament, with ONE exception, the INHERITANCE refers to the Good Land of Canaan. The one exception is that the Levites, who received no land, would inherit God (Nu.18:20). Now, this is almost the same in the New Testament. The Christian will inherit God, God will take the Christian as His inheritance, but the majority references to "inheritance" for the Christian is THE EARTH. The reason for this is that by being IN Christ, the Christian becomes seed of Abraham (Gal.3:29). Galatians 3 and Ephesians 2 build a case for how a Christian can inherit the earth without being an Israelite. Ephesians does it by adoption by God, and Galatians does it by being in Christ who is the Chief Son of Abraham.
So the sequence above in 1st Peter is to reassure the Jewish convert that his INHERITANCE is intact. Point
- shows how they will be forgiven and atoned for - the blood of Jesus
- shows their rebirth for the Kingdom (Jn.3:3)
- shows their HOPE. This is the crucial point. Shortly after God promised Abraham and his seed the Good Land, He told Abraham that he would not inherit this Land in his lifetime. He would die a pilgrim in it. Isaac would too. And Joseph and three more generations would also die in Egypt and never possess the Good Land. The reason is that they would receive it when they would never die - after RESURRECTION. Hebrews 11 confirms this. Abraham's great faith in God was that God could raise the dead. Now, 2,00 later, Jewish converts had believed in the AUTHOR OF LIFE Who had Himself defeated death - The Resurrected Jesus! The HOPE that Peter wished to transmit was that the rebirth was the beginning of a journey that ended in RESURRECTION. And RESURRECTION was for getting the Land as "an everlasting possession". In Hebrews 11 the Land and it's major City, Jerusalem are called "HEAVENLY" (v.16).
Now, "heavenly" can mean it has its origin in heaven, or it can mean that the object or person lives there. Since the Keeper, or banker who keeps our reward is Christ, and He is heavenly, our REWARD, kept in heaven, is called heavenly. It does not mean that our reward will be in heaven. It means that it is kept safely in the vaults of heaven till Christ brings it with as His RETURN (Rev.22:12). So the HOPE of the ex-Jew, who embraced Jesus Christ, is Christ's resurrection, because it is then that he will receive the Good Land. Now all that needs to be explained is the "salvation in the last time". And this is explained by all three gospels - in Matthew 19:25, Mark 10:26 and Luke 18:26!
Because man was made not only to be in the image and likeness of God, but also to reign over the earth, when we are "saved" it means "saved" from the Lake of Fire, saved from our fallen nature and saved in the sense that we get to inherit the earth. In the three scripture above, the man is regarded as saved, not only from his sins and death, but part of salvation is INHERITING the KINGDOM on EARTH. It is THIS SALVATION that 1st Peter 1:5 addresses. A man may be saved from his sins and eventually saved from his Adamic nature. But he is only fully saved in he also INHERITS THE EARTH.1st Peter 1:2-5 does address the rebirth, but the main point is RESURRECTION for the INHERITANCE. And there, we were "raised WITH Christ" because in regards to the Heavenly INHERITANCE ON EARTH, we need "Celestial glory" in resurrection (1st Cor.15:40).
Make sense?
Keep reading principle .
1¶What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9¶Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
The whole point is just about not being able to attain righteousness through works . Why? because there is none righteousness, no not one . But doesn't say man cannot respond to the one who is righteous .
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH is counted for righteousness.
1¶What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9¶Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
The whole point is just about not being able to attain righteousness through works . Why? because there is none righteousness, no not one . But doesn't say man cannot respond to the one who is righteous .
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH is counted for righteousness.
Lots of people ' recieved ' the Holy Spirit in the OT also for a purpose and a task . But it would leave. it would come UPON them but not indwell them . So its not clear that they recieved the Holy Spirit the way we do today .
Jesus says this to the diciples .
John 16
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
This is saying the Holy Spirit can not come until Jesus ascends .
Then we go to Acts 1 .
4¶And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptised with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Then the ascension.
9¶And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Ok then we go to Acts 2 for the big day when the Holy Spirit is given .
1¶And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Jews recieve the Holy Spirit .
then in Acts 11 Gentiles recieve the Holy Spirit 10 years after Acts 2 .
1¶And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
This is when we come in . NOW all recieve the Holy Spirit, through believing the Gospel.
Eph 1 .12-13 . sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
That's why you have to be careful getting doctrines from the book of Acts .
Jesus says this to the diciples .
John 16
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
This is saying the Holy Spirit can not come until Jesus ascends .
Then we go to Acts 1 .
4¶And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptised with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Then the ascension.
9¶And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Ok then we go to Acts 2 for the big day when the Holy Spirit is given .
1¶And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Jews recieve the Holy Spirit .
then in Acts 11 Gentiles recieve the Holy Spirit 10 years after Acts 2 .
1¶And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
This is when we come in . NOW all recieve the Holy Spirit, through believing the Gospel.
Eph 1 .12-13 . sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
That's why you have to be careful getting doctrines from the book of Acts .
Another attempt to make the unregenerate natural man have the ability to discern the things of the Spirit. The natural man cannot believeth (discern, understand) him that justifieth the ungodly.
The only way that the unregenerate natural man can respond to a person that is talking about righteous (spiritual) things is that he must be born again, and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then, and only then, can he have the ability to discern the things of the Spirit.
The only way that the unregenerate natural man can respond to a person that is talking about righteous (spiritual) things is that he must be born again, and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then, and only then, can he have the ability to discern the things of the Spirit.
Just another effort to deflect man's responsibility for his actions. Unregenerate man can and must discern truth from evil. Adam choose to sin against God. Man must choose to turn from sin to Christ.
Learn John 3:16 and stop denying your responsibility to answer to Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Learn John 3:16 and stop denying your responsibility to answer to Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You are ignoring Isaiah 63:11. All scriptures must harmonize. John 14:26, But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost (the reveolater) he shall teach you. The Holy Spirit is a quickening Spirit. The Holy Spirit quickened the old testament saints, the same way that he quickened us. The old testament saints did not understand the doctrine of Jesus, because it was yet to come. After Jesus preach his doctrine, and was seated at his Father's right hand, he sent the Holy Ghost, which is a function of the of the quickening Holy Spirit that reveals the doctrine that Jesus taught.
Your statement "This is when we come in. NOW all receive the Holy Spirit, through believing the gospel". This statement is a false theory, due to a lack of harmonizing the scriptures.
Believing the gospel is not the cause of us receiving the Holy Spirit. We are born again, quickened by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word, with no knowledge of the gospel, which is the doctrine of Jesus. As newly born babes in Christ, we gradually grow into maturity, by the teaching, and preaching of the gospel, as the Holy Ghost reveals to us.
Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.
Your statement "This is when we come in. NOW all receive the Holy Spirit, through believing the gospel". This statement is a false theory, due to a lack of harmonizing the scriptures.
Believing the gospel is not the cause of us receiving the Holy Spirit. We are born again, quickened by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as babes in Christ, surviving on the milk of the word, with no knowledge of the gospel, which is the doctrine of Jesus. As newly born babes in Christ, we gradually grow into maturity, by the teaching, and preaching of the gospel, as the Holy Ghost reveals to us.
Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.