When are we saved ?

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OIC1965 said:
I do agree that Calvinists are accused of believing things that they don’t believe. This is due to the fact that people are ignorant of their actual positions.

Anti Calvinists should not talk about Calvinism unless they actually read their writings. What they often do is merely read and quote anti Calvinist writers.

I think these people need to stop attacking things they haven’t read. I don’t attack Calvinism, because I do not have an adequate understanding of it, and I have a pretty good grasp of it, but not enough for me to properly represent it.

I just try to stick with only the Bible. If the Bible agrees with a Calvinist belief, I accept it. If not. I dont

It’s ludicrous for people to say I have Calvinist leanings. I was saved, reared, and trained in an anti Calvinist church. Deeply anti Calvinist. I came to my beliefs through decades of Bible study

I am currently in church that is neither Calvinistic nor do they attack it. I consider Calvinists my brethren, and I don’t feel inclined to attack my brethren.
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Was this church Arminan ? if so , then my point has been also to demonstrate that Arminism inspite of its in house squabbling comes from the same faulty pot . Its wrong for the same reasons Calvinism is wrong .
 
ForestGreenCook said:
Who is the "all" in Gal 3:26? Paul is talking about himself and unto the churches of Galatia.

If you are still trying to include the unregenerate natural man into this scripture, he will not fit.
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The point is HOW they became children of God? By faith IN Jesus christ . You can't keep trying the ' It only refers to the 'elect' switch- a -roo with every verse
 
throughfaith said:
Was this church Arminan ? if so , then my point has been also to demonstrate that Arminism inspite of its in house squabbling comes from the same faulty pot . Its wrong for the same reasons Calvinism is wrong .
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I see four views on the issue of ability versus inability.

Calvinists, Arminians, Semi pelagians,and Pelagians. I do not fall in with any of them.
 
Magenta said:
I gave a link;)

Molinism affirms that God grants salvation, but a person has the choice to freely accept it or reject it.
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Arminians and semi pelagians believe that too.

The four categories I listed have to do with man’s ability or inability to believe the Gospel and whether they can initiate their own faith unassisted or if God Initiates it in some way, either through regeneration before faith or drawing.
 
OIC1965 said:
Arminians and semi pelagians believe that too.

The four categories I listed have to do with man’s ability or inability to believe the Gospel and whether they can initiate their own faith unassisted or if God Initiates it in some way, either through regeneration before faith or drawing.
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Basic views on ability/inability

Semi pelagians. Man needs nothing except to hear the Gospel to believe. Faith is something we do unassisted and of our own power

Arminian. Man needs the Gospel and also to be drawn by the Spirit to believe. Spirit conviction and drawing.

Calvinist. Man is regenerated before He believes. Faith is an irresistable gift
 
OIC1965 said:
Arminians and semi pelagians believe that too.

The four categories I listed have to do with man’s ability or inability to believe the Gospel and whether they can initiate their own faith unassisted or if God Initiates it in some way, either through regeneration before faith or drawing.
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The link says Molinism differs from Arminianism because it claims that God definitively knows how a person would react to the Gospel message if they were put in a particular situation. Via His omniscience, no doubt ;):)
 
throughfaith said:
Unbelief condemns a person, not because it is an unforgiven sin, but because it is the exclusive point of access to the grace. (Rom. 5:2)

Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)
Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

thoughts ?
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When we repent, and receive Him as our Lord and Saviour, giving and surrendering our lives and hearts to Him, trusting in Him to help us. Loving Him, selflessly, with all our hearts!!! He is everything!!! We are so blessed, He helps establish us, little by little, bit by bit...faith to faith.
 
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CharliRenee said:
When we repent, and receive Him as our Lord and Saviour, giving and surrendering our lives and hearts to Him, trusting in Him to help us. Loving Him, selflessly, with all our hearts!!! He is everything!!! We are so blessed, He helps establish us, little by little, bit by bit...faith to faith.
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Then that would mean we could not recieve Jesus , recieve the Holy Spirit , recieve Christ's righteousness and be justified until we ' surrendered ' our lives . What ever that means? surely surrendering our lives takes a while ?
 
Magenta said:
The link says Molinism differs from Arminianism because it claims that God definitively knows how a person would react to the Gospel message if they were put in a particular situation. Via His omniscience, no doubt ;):)
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Yes, correct. I did not say that their systems were identical in every respect. We’re talking about in only one aspect.

You are discussing the relationship between Divine Soveriegnty and human freedom. That is not what I am referring to. I am merely referring to different views of the effect of the Fall on man’s freedom. Slightly different topics.
 
Magenta said:
The link says Molinism differs from Arminianism because it claims that God definitively knows how a person would react to the Gospel message if they were put in a particular situation. Via His omniscience, no doubt ;):)
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I used to have a very similar view to Molinism, and that was before I knew what it was. But my views on the matter have changed since then.

I think that the relationship between Divine Soveriegnty and human freedom (human freedom is not absolute or autonomous) resists our attempts to neatly package it in our understanding. I think there’s an element to it we do not fully comprehend. I just believe in both, while admitting I don’t fully understand them.
 
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OIC1965 said:
Yes, correct. I did not say that their systems were identical in every respect. We’re talking about in only one aspect.

You are discussing the relationship between Divine Soveriegnty and human freedom. That is not what I am referring to. I am merely referring to different views of the effect of the Fall on man’s freedom. Slightly different topics.
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Is that what ability/inability is? Because that is what I saw you talking about.
 
OIC1965 said:
I used to have a very similar view to Molinism, and that was before I knew what it was. But my views on the matter have changed since then.

I think that the relationship between Divine Soveriegnty and human freedom (human freedom is not absolute or autonomous) resists our attempts to neatly package it in our understanding. I think there’s an element to it we do not fully comprehend. I just believe in both, while admitting I don’t fully understand them.
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I don't need to put my beliefs in boxes either. As long as they align with Scripture, I'm good :D
 
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Magenta said:
Is that what ability/inability is? Because that is what I saw you talking about.
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The question of ability/inability has to do with the effects of the fall on our ability to choose what is good. Including our ability to choose Jesus

My position is that we can choose Jesus, bur that we will not want to apart from BOTH the gospel AND the drawing/convicting of the Spirit that accompanied the preaching of the Gospel

But I do not believe that the drawing is irresistable

That makes me an partially Arminian in the matter of human freedom. But I am not Arminian in other matters.
 
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