When are we saved ?

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OIC1965 said:
I’m early into the video, about 20 minutes in, and already hears a critical mistake. He said Calvinists teach that God arbitrarily chose people.

Calvinists DO NOT believe in arbitrary election. And Arminians CERTAINLY DONT believe in arbitrary election.

How many strikes should I allow? Continuing the video now.
Click to expand...

I fast forwarded to Ephesians 1:4 because he was going through irrelevant verses,and his explaining away of Ephesians 1:4 was shallow and invalid. He says it is a vocational calling. Sorry, the immediate context is all about salvation!!!!

Made holy- sanctified

Blameless. Justified

Before Him in love. Reconciliation and relationship

Adoption as sons. Entrance into Gods family and future resurrection aspect/ glorification.

Redemption through Christ’s blood.

Forgiveness of sins.

Revelation of the mystery of His Will

Inheritance

Seal of the Spirit

Final redemption of the purchased possession

Ephesians 2 regeneration/ spiritual resurrection

Union with Christ

Saved by Grace

Etc

EVERYTHING relates to salvation. Pauli doesn’t mention vocation until Chapter 2:10, and that in context of the fact that we are His Workmanship, another aspect of salvation.
 
OIC1965 said:
Correction. 1 Peter 1:1-2

Elect or chosen according to foreknowledge is not Calvinistic, it’s Petrine. You two might want to get your facts straight before you label someone

And it wasn’t me who said two spirits of God.
Click to expand...

Another proof text...sigh

Foreknowledge is involved, however, it cannot be redefined to mean “foreordination.”

Although what I have noticed it the constant redefining of words by those who follow this Calvinist doctrine of God "foreordaining"
 
OIC1965 said:
I’m early into the video, about 20 minutes in, and already hears a critical mistake. He said Calvinists teach that God arbitrarily chose people.

Calvinists DO NOT believe in arbitrary election. And Arminians CERTAINLY DONT believe in arbitrary election.

How many strikes should I allow? Continuing the video now.
Click to expand...
OIC1965 said:
I’m early into the video, about 20 minutes in, and already hears a critical mistake. He said Calvinists teach that God arbitrarily chose people.

Calvinists DO NOT believe in arbitrary election. And Arminians CERTAINLY DONT believe in arbitrary election.

How many strikes should I allow? Continuing the video now.
Click to expand...
Even the ' great giant of the faith ' Calvinist ,Jonathan Edwards in his sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," calls UNCONDITIONAL Election ' arbitrary.
 
EleventhHour said:
Another proof text...sigh

Foreknowledge is involved, however, it cannot be redefined to mean “foreordination.”

Although what I have noticed it the constant redefining of words by those who follow this Calvinist doctrine of God "foreordaining"
Click to expand...

No, I do not define foreknow as foreordain. That’s in your imagination. You never saw me type that.
 
OIC1965 said:
No, I do not define foreknow as foreordain. That’s in your imagination. You never saw me type that.
Click to expand...

You know you are not a straight talker as @lenna has already come to discern as I have as well.

We had a member here @preacher4truth and he was a staunch in holding to the five tenets of this unbiblical dogma... also a fan of R.C. Sproul....

...at least I could respect he was "straight up" in what he believed.

Elect to you means foreordained, chosen... it means selected/chosen by God before the beginning of time.
 
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throughfaith said:
Even the ' great giant of the faith ' Calvinist ,Jonathan Edwards in his sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," calls UNCONDITIONAL Election ' arbitrary.
Click to expand...

Actually he doesn’t. Read it again. The arbitrary will quote is not about election.
 
EleventhHour said:
You know you are not a straight talker as @lenna has already come to discern as I have as well.

We had a member here @preacher4truth and he was a staunch in holding to the five tenets of this unbiblical dogma... also a fan of R.C. Sproul....

...at least I could respect he was "straight up" in what he believed.

Elect to you means foreordained, chosen... it means selected/chosen by God before the beginning of time.
Click to expand...

Here’s the problem; you are guilty of countless category errors... and goalpost shifting.

A few minutes ago you argued against foreknowledge being the same as foreordination. Then when I rebutted you, you changed your argument to election is the same as foreordination.

Shifting goalposts from definition of foreknowledge to definition of predestination. Not the same thing.

Either you don’t know the difference between foreknowledge and predestination, or you are trying to make them synonomous in order to dance around the clear teaching of elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

And the next person who insinuates that I am dishonest will be reported. Then the mods can determine if I’m a straight talker or not.
 
EleventhHour said:
You know you are not a straight talker as @lenna has already come to discern as I have as well.

We had a member here @preacher4truth and he was a staunch in holding to the five tenets of this unbiblical dogma... also a fan of R.C. Sproul....

...at least I could respect he was "straight up" in what he believed.

Elect to you means foreordained, chosen... it means selected/chosen by God before the beginning of time.
Click to expand...

So why did you shift the goalposts from trying to say I believe foreknowledge is foreordination to claiming I believe election is foreordaination.

Two very different statements. Stick to one thing at a time and stop bouncing around like a jumping bean

Do you not yet know that election and foreknowledge are NOT THE SAME THING?

How on earth do you go from prognosis to eklego without distinguishing them? You are completely confused in this discussion.
 
OIC1965 said:
Here’s the problem; you are guilty of countless category errors... and goalpost shifting.

A few minutes ago you argued against foreknowledge being the same as foreordination. Then when I rebutted you, you changed your argument to election is the same as foreordination.

Shifting goalposts from definition of foreknowledge to definition of predestination. Not the same thing.

Either you don’t know the difference between foreknowledge and predestination, or you are trying to make them synonomous in order to dance around the clear teaching of elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

And the next person who insinuates that I am dishonest will be reported. Then the mods can determine if I’m a straight talker or not.
Click to expand...

All these words in the Calvinist schema .... predestination, foreknowledge, chosen all add up to the same concept.

I am not stating you are dishonest ...but you redefine what you are stating so it is hard to really converse.

Can you plainly state what "chosen" means.... does God "chose" as in "select" those who are saved before time began?
 
OIC1965 said:
Actually he doesn’t. Read it again. The arbitrary will quote is not about election.
Click to expand...
As I don't see election being anything other than service and purpose its completely arbitrary to me lol . I'm open to be shown in the bible where we see a reason given for unconditional election to be saved before people existed ?
 
EleventhHour said:
You know you are not a straight talker as @lenna has already come to discern as I have as well.

We had a member here @preacher4truth and he was a staunch in holding to the five tenets of this unbiblical dogma... also a fan of R.C. Sproul....

...at least I could respect he was "straight up" in what he believed.

Elect to you means foreordained, chosen... it means selected/chosen by God before the beginning of time.
Click to expand...

he obviously does not understand the terms but uses them in a way that suggests he leans towards Calvinism whether or not he understands that. as a result, we have constant denial and constant affirmation from him

for me, I think it is time to just let him do what he seems to do best

say what he does, then deny he said it, insist he is not conforming to reforming, invest in circular reasoning, a few other things and end with an appeal to the authority he recognizes in this thread

it's boring already
 
OIC1965 said:
So why did you shift the goalposts from trying to say I believe foreknowledge is foreordination to claiming I believe election is foreordaination.

Two very different statements. Stick to one thing at a time and stop bouncing around like a jumping bean

Do you not yet know that election and foreknowledge are NOT THE SAME THING?

How on earth do you go from prognosis to eklego without distinguishing them? You are completely confused in this discussion.
Click to expand...
I think Israel as God's first born son is foreknown
 
EleventhHour said:
All these words in the Calvinist schema .... predestination, foreknowledge, chosen all add up to the same concept.

I am not stating you are dishonest ...but you redefine what you are stating so it is hard to really converse.

Can you plainly state what "chosen" means.... does God "chose" as in "select" those who are saved before time began?
Click to expand...

All those words are in the Bible. So if you think the Bible is Calvinistic, maybe you should become a Calvinist.

And no, they do not add up to the same concept. Election and chosen are the same. Foreknowledge is different

We are elected ACCORDING TO the foreknowledge of God.

There. That’s my definition of election.

What does foreknow mean? To know a person beforehand.

There. Everything’s defined for you.
 
lenna said:
he obviously does not understand the terms but uses them in a way that suggests he leans towards Calvinism whether or not he understands that. as a result, we have constant denial and constant affirmation from him

for me, I think it is time to just let him do what he seems to do best

say what he does, then deny he said it, insist he is not conforming to reforming, invest in circular reasoning, a few other things and end with an appeal to the authority he recognizes in this thread

it's boring already
Click to expand...

Yes I agree.
 
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OIC1965 said:
I fast forwarded to Ephesians 1:4 because he was going through irrelevant verses,and his explaining away of Ephesians 1:4 was shallow and invalid. He says it is a vocational calling. Sorry, the immediate context is all about salvation!!!!

Made holy- sanctified

Blameless. Justified

Before Him in love. Reconciliation and relationship

Adoption as sons. Entrance into Gods family and future resurrection aspect/ glorification.

Redemption through Christ’s blood.

Forgiveness of sins.

Revelation of the mystery of His Will

Inheritance

Seal of the Spirit

Final redemption of the purchased possession

Ephesians 2 regeneration/ spiritual resurrection

Union with Christ

Saved by Grace

Etc

EVERYTHING relates to salvation. Pauli doesn’t mention vocation until Chapter 2:10, and that in context of the fact that we are His Workmanship, another aspect of salvation.
Click to expand...
I think you may need some time . Exposure to certain theology takes time to undo . I wish you well in your studies.
 
lenna said:
he obviously does not understand the terms but uses them in a way that suggests he leans towards Calvinism whether or not he understands that. as a result, we have constant denial and constant affirmation from him

for me, I think it is time to just let him do what he seems to do best

say what he does, then deny he said it, insist he is not conforming to reforming, invest in circular reasoning, a few other things and end with an appeal to the authority he recognizes in this thread

it's boring already
Click to expand...

Refute any part of this using scripture.

Election means choice

Foreknowledge means the knowledge of someone before. I say knowledge of someone because Romans 8:29 says God knew WHOS, NOT WHATS

Predestination is what God has chosen us to. God has chosen that we should be conformed to the image of His sin, adoption, and an inheritance. Romans 8:29. Ephesians 1:11, Ephesians 1:5

We are chosen for the purpose that we should holy and without blame before Him in love. Ephesians 1:4

We are chosen and elected according to ( in accordance with) God’s foreknowledge, (foreknowing US) Romans 8:20

100 percent scripture truth.
 
OIC1965 said:
All those words are in the Bible. So if you think the Bible is Calvinistic, maybe you should become a Calvinist.

And no, they do not add up to the same concept. Election and chosen are the same. Foreknowledge is different

We are elected ACCORDING TO the foreknowledge of God.

There. That’s my definition of election.

What does foreknow mean? To know a person beforehand.

There. Everything’s defined for you.
Click to expand...

See you did not answer my question... sigh .. I give up.

R. C. Sproul would clearly state YES God chose those individuals for salvation and only those individuals.
Yet this has far reaching implications and R. C. Sproul accepted those implications as well.

Alright, I have learned well enough that once this dogma once it is in someone's mind it is hard for them to see otherwise.
Movin on.....
 
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