Are the words of Jesus not for Christians?

[Forcemyhand]

What do you think of Zechariah 8 then? The timetable is spelt clearly there, from my perspective

From Zion to my people (vs 3-7), and then to other people (vs 20-23)

3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

20 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Generally with 2 things to add.

1 Zion is the kingdom established, not just a physical place. All in it Hebrew and non-Hebrew alike will be children of YHWH.

Isaiah 56:7, “Them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

2. Yes 20-23 is talking about non Jews, however a non-Hebrew or non-Jew can, if they have laready taken part in the Passover (that is truly Yahshua) they are no longer goyim/ethnos (pagans) but rather they are Yahsharyl (true Israel). It has been this way since Exodus and possibly before that even.

Exodus 12:48-49, “And when a stranger sojourns with you and shall perform the Pĕsaḥ to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and perform it, and he shall be as a native of the land. But let no uncircumcised eat of it. “There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

 

[Guojing]

Generally with 2 things to add.

1 Zion is the kingdom established, not just a physical place. All in it Hebrew and non-Hebrew alike will be children of YHWH.

Isaiah 56:7, “Them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

2. Yes 20-23 is talking about non Jews, however a non-Hebrew or non-Jew can, if they have laready taken part in the Passover (that is truly Yahshua) they are no longer goyim/ethnos (pagans) but rather they are Yahsharyl (true Israel). It has been this way since Exodus and possibly before that even.

Exodus 12:48-49, “And when a stranger sojourns with you and shall perform the Pĕsaḥ to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and perform it, and he shall be as a native of the land. But let no uncircumcised eat of it. “There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

Yes, as I stated to Ahtuakee before in this thread https://christianchat.com/threads/are-the-words-of-jesus-not-for-christians.194927/post-4378689

in time past, gentiles needed to join the nation Israel to be saved (Ephesians 2:11-12). That required circumcision for males and to obey the Law of Moses, as you quoted from Exodus 12:48.

But now, we are saved thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11). We no longer need to be circumcised as commanded in Exodus 12:48.

I think the key difference in our doctrine is that you believe the nation Israel has already fallen, in the eyes of God, by the time Acts 1 came about.

For me, I believe they fell after Stephen was stoned in Acts 7. That is why I understand Acts 10 differently from you.

 

[Forcemyhand]

Yes, as I stated to Ahtuakee before in this thread https://christianchat.com/threads/are-the-words-of-jesus-not-for-christians.194927/post-4378689

in time past, gentiles needed to join the nation Israel to be saved (Ephesians 2:11-12). That required circumcision for males and to obey the Law of Moses, as you quoted from Exodus 12:48.

But now, we are saved thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11). We no longer need to be circumcised as commanded in Exodus 12:48.

I think the key difference in our doctrine is that you believe the nation Israel has already fallen, in the eyes of God, by the time Acts 1 came about.

For me, I believe they fell after Stephen was stoned in Acts 7. That is why I understand Acts 10 differently from you.

Except Israel is not about a physical nation, and Israel is not even its name..... Israel is Isis Ra El, the real name Yahsharyl, and there is one flock one Shepherd.

John/Yahanan 10:16, “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd

I can also disprove your view with a quote from Isiah that speaks of the end times and Yahshua quotes...

Isaiah 56:7, “Them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

Mark 11:17, “And He was teaching, saying to them, “Has it not been written, ‘My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’? (Isa 56:7) But you have made it a ‘den of robbers.” (Jer 7:11)

 

[Guojing]

Except Israel is not about a physical nation, and Israel is not even its name..... Israel is Isis Ra El, the real name Yahsharyl, and there is one flock one Shepherd.

John/Yahanan 10:16, “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd

I can also disprove your view with a quote from Isiah that speaks of the end times and Yahshua quotes...

Isaiah 56:7, “Them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

Mark 11:17, “And He was teaching, saying to them, “Has it not been written, ‘My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’? (Isa 56:7) But you have made it a ‘den of robbers.” (Jer 7:11)

Alright, you believe that Israel is always spiritual, and it was always meant to be since the world began?

Thus the Body of Christ now is Israel, or rather spiritual Israel, in the eyes of God.

That is a very common doctrine held by Christians so I can understand where you are coming from.

 

[Forcemyhand]

Alright, you believe that Israel is always spiritual, and it was always meant to be since the world began?

Thus the Body of Christ now is Israel, or rather spiritual Israel, in the eyes of God.

That is a very common doctrine held by Christians so I can understand where you are coming from.

When the Hebrews left Egypt a "mixed multitude" left with them and they were just as the blood Hebrews because they had chosen to follow YHWH. SO Yahsharyl (Israel) was made up of the Hebrew tribes but from it's inception as a physical nation it also had non-Hebrew blood citizens that were fully citizens accepted by YHWH and by blood Hebrews. So it;s not just some belief but it is a fact, not all the details are definitly shrouded but none the less non-blood Hebrews can now and have always been able to be a part of Yahsharyl aka YHWH's people.

Exodus 12:37-40, “And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. 38, And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. 39, And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual. 40, Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.”

“mixed multitude” is word #H6154 - עֶרֶב עֵרֶב - ‛êreb ‛ereb, ay'-reb, eh'-reb, The second form used in 1 Kings 10:15 with the article prefixed); from H6148; the web (or transverse threads of cloth); also a mixture, (or mongrel race):—Arabia, mingled people, mixed (multitude)

 

[Guojing]

When the Hebrews left Egypt a "mixed multitude" left with them and they were just as the blood Hebrews because they had chosen to follow YHWH. SO Yahsharyl (Israel) was made up of the Hebrew tribes but from it's inception as a physical nation it also had non-Hebrew blood citizens that were fully citizens accepted by YHWH and by blood Hebrews. So it;s not just some belief but it is a fact, not all the details are definitly shrouded but none the less non-blood Hebrews can now and have always been able to be a part of Yahsharyl aka YHWH's people.

Exodus 12:37-40, “And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. 38, And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. 39, And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual. 40, Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.”

“mixed multitude” is word #H6154 - עֶרֶב עֵרֶב - ‛êreb ‛ereb, ay'-reb, eh'-reb, The second form used in 1 Kings 10:15 with the article prefixed); from H6148; the web (or transverse threads of cloth); also a mixture, (or mongrel race):—Arabia, mingled people, mixed (multitude)

There is another way to view that, which is that once gentiles are willing to follow Exodus 12:48, they have joined the nation Israel. As vs 48 goes "he shall be as one that is born in the land".

So prior to the mystery revealed to Paul, a gentile could only be included in God's covenant by physically joining the nation of Israel (Ephesians 2:11-12).

Once that happens, he is saved as being part of the nation Israel, just like every other Jew from birth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

When did the Church begin? After the resurrection...

The Church (the Body of Christ) began on the Day of Pentecost, in AD 30. That was when the Holy Spirit was poured out and down from Heaven, and those who were saved received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

During the earthly ministry of Christ, He could not have been speaking to the Church, the body of Christ. He was speaking to the Jews, His physical chosen people. What was the message?

During His earthly ministry Christ was speaking to His disciples. Those disciples also received the Spirit on the day of Pentecost (the eleven apostles received the Spirit immediately after Christ's resurrection).

But except for a very few instances when the Lord addressed the requirements of the Law of Moses, Jesus spoke to all mankind. Take John chapter 3 as an example. While Nicodemus was told that the New Birth was an absolute necessity, that message is for absolutely every human being. The offer of eternal life is also for every human being.

 

[Forcemyhand]

There is another way to view that, which is that once gentiles are willing to follow Exodus 12:48, they have joined the nation Israel. As vs 48 goes "he shall be as one that is born in the land".

So prior to the mystery revealed to Paul, a gentile could only be included in God's covenant by physically joining the nation of Israel (Ephesians 2:11-12).

Once that happens, he is saved as being part of the nation Israel, just like every other Jew from birth.

every Jewish person is not saved just by being Jewish? what are you talking about?

Also the Passover in Ex 12 is only a placeholder for acceptingYahshua, He had not yet come... now anyone who follows yahshua is as a native...

 

[Guojing]

every Jewish person is not saved just by being Jewish? what are you talking about?

Also the Passover in Ex 12 is only a placeholder for acceptingYahshua, He had not yet come... now anyone who follows yahshua is as a native...

I didn't say being a Jew is sufficient for salvation. They had to obey the conditions of the covenant set for them by God, which after Mount Sinai, is the Law of Moses.

I am saying, in time past, gentiles could not be saved without going thru the nation Israel, being part of the nation Israel was necessary for salvation.

Ephesians 2:11-12 made that clear,
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Even Jesus made the same remark to the Samaritan woman in John 4:22.

 

[Forcemyhand]

I didn't say being a Jew is sufficient for salvation. They had to obey the conditions of the covenant set for them by God, which after Mount Sinai, is the Law of Moses.

I am saying, in time past, gentiles could not be saved without going thru the nation Israel, being part of the nation Israel was necessary for salvation.

Ephesians 2:11-12 made that clear,
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Even Jesus made the same remark to the Samaritan woman in John 4:22.

OK, I misunderstood you, my fault, however I see it as the same with one having a placeholder.

Pre MEssiah Hebrew Israelites had to keep the Passover, the physical animal Lamb was a placeholder, post Messiah sacrifice all have to accept Him and follow Him, the true passover Lamb, one way for all people now, ust like there was pone way for all people before.

 

[Absolutely]

It's funny that people think that we should obey the gospels, but at the same time, they do realize not all of it needs to be obeyed. Only the teachings they agree with, they obey.

Yeah all that stuff Jesus said like "I am the way...and no man enters except through the Son"
And "unless you be born again,you can not enter into heaven"

Those words of Jesus are to be cast off like a dirty garment huh?

 

[John146]

Yeah all that stuff Jesus said like "I am the way...and no man enters except through the Son"
And "unless you be born again,you can not enter into heaven"

Those words of Jesus are to be cast off like a dirty garment huh?

We would not understand what all that meant if not for Pau’s letters to the body of Christ.

 

[Absolutely]

Peter was sent to the gentiles

Peter saying he was sent to gentiles:

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

The holy Spirit sending Peter to gentiles:

Acts 10:19 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.”
Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You know that a Yehuḏi man is not allowed to associate with, or go to one of another race. But the Mighty One has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.”

Yahshua/Jesus sending the 12 to the gentiles:

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

Please do not confuse the paulines.

They have already put Jesus ,james,and peter in their proper places as n.a.

Only the Pauline epistles are the real bible. All other books are erroneous filler and anti paul (which to them is anti christ)

Last days deception

 

[John146]

Please do not confuse the paulines.

They have already put Jesus ,james,and peter in their proper places as n.a.

Only the Pauline epistles are the real bible. All other books are erroneous filler and anti paul (which to them is anti christ)

Last days deception

Have you built an ark? Make animal sacrifices? Well I guess those stories aren’t part of the real bible...just fillers. It’s nonsense to say something like that.

 

[Absolutely]

We would not understand what all that meant if not for Pau’s letters to the body of Christ.

It's not what Paul says that has ANY CONTENTION.

It is what you paulines fo to the other writings that you have some need to disenfranchise.

You have false teachers.

It is they that teach you to discredit the non Pauline books.

Of course the Pauline books add illumination.

Your need for Peter's total elimination and cast as a heretic is bogus.

Paul said "if you recieve a gospel contrary to the one we preach,let him be accursed"

You definately have,in your Pauline workbook, Jesus and peter preaching a different gospel.

I sat under your teachers
Greens letters

And less feldick.

THEY ARE WRONG.

 

[Absolutely]

Have you built an ark? Make animal sacrifices? Well I guess those stories aren’t part of the real bible...just fillers. It’s nonsense to say something like that.

Baloney.

Have you shaved your head???

Taken a vow????

Then you are not SPECIFICALLY FOLLOWING paul.

Pure nonsense.
That is where those heretics took you.
Into a make believe land of discrediting Gods word

 

[John146]

It's not what Paul says that has ANY CONTENTION.

It is what you paulines fo to the other writings that you have some need to disenfranchise.

You have false teachers.

It is they that teach you to discredit the non Pauline books.

Of course the Pauline books add illumination.

Your need for Peter's total elimination and cast as a heretic is bogus.

Paul said "if you recieve a gospel contrary to the one we preach,let him be accursed"

You definately have,in your Pauline workbook, Jesus and peter preaching a different gospel.

I sat under your teachers
Greens letters

And less feldick.

THEY ARE WRONG.

Why would Paul say that? Because there were other gospels being preached, mainly the gospel of the circumcision stating that a Gentile should be circumcised and become a Jew before receiving the Jewish Messiah as their Saviour.

 

[John146]

Have you shaved your head???

Taken a vow????

Then you are not SPECIFICALLY FOLLOWING paul.

Did Paul command the body of Christ to do the same? Nope, but nice try. You should understand that he did this in order to be a testimony to the Jews because of his desire to see them saved.

 

[lenna]

I already quoted Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8 to you.

And John 11:25 was directed to Israel because he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead to prove to Israel that their Messiah is here in the flesh.

It is interesting you used that verse, because Bethel Church kept using that verse as applying to the Body of Christ, when they tried to #WakeupOlive in Dec 2019, and look what happened after that.

you don't see what you are doing

sad. so you believe in Paul but not in Jesus.

 

[John146]

sad. so you believe in Paul but not in Jesus.

Are we to follow what Jesus taught the Jew under the law or what Jesus taught the body of Christ through the Apostle Paul? It really is pretty simple.