Are the words of Jesus not for Christians?

[John146]

I agree and teach that salvation is by grace through faith. We as believers are to garner whatever truths are found in all scripture regardless of labeling them as doctrinal or transitional. Every book is scripture for us.

For us but not all to us...

 

[Guojing]

Wrong. Paul addressed Jews as his brethren. James is addressing his Jewish brethren, the twelve tribes.

Romans 9:3 is the clearest scripture that presents the term brethren and brother, as a fellow Jew.

 

[Guojing]

No! You are wrong. James 5:18, is for all believers, not just the Jews. I reiterate, James says, "my brothers," i.e. other believers in Christ. With your interpretation of this, you would be saying the Jew and Gentile have two different plans of salvation. James is speaking to both Jew and Gentile Christians and therefore, the scripture is to be applied to all. James is certainly not speaking about wandering Jews returning to the law of Moses, but to Jews and Gentiles who wander away from faith.

Let me address this particular misconception, which was part of the longer post you made to me previously.

Jews and Gentiles have the same plan of salvation now, which is 1 Cor 15:1-4

But before the dispensation of grace that was first revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:9), the salvation plan for Israel as a nation was different.

To be saved before that, the nation must obey the covenant that God has set for them, which is stated in a few places, the clearest for our purpose here is Exodus 19

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

How does Israel, as a nation, keep God's covenant that he made with them after Mount Sinai? That is thru the Law of Moses. God gave them many commandments to keep, and at the same time, provided a system of animal sacrifices for them when they fail to keep it perfectly.

After Jesus arrive in the flesh, there is a new commandment for all Israel to follow, which is inline with what we are discussing about in Mark 16:16.

They are to repent from disobeying God previously when they stoned the OT prophets that God sent to them previously to urge them to go back to the Law of Moses, and to believe that Jesus is their promised Son of God.

In a few places we see this, the clearest of course is from Stephen in Acts 7:52

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Jesus also spoke about this in the parable of the vineyard owner in Mark 12:1-5.

If Israel is willing to do this, they will be reborn or born again. What is the next task for them to obey in order to keep the covenant? All Jews must be water baptized, this was not a requirement before Jesus came in the flesh

Under the gospel of the kingdom preached to Israel only, water baptism is a requirement for salvation. Israel as a nation was supposed to accept Jesus as their Messiah and be ushered into their promised kingdom where Jesus will rule over them from David's throne in Jerusalem.

Then Israel will become a kingdom of priest, in order to be a priest, every Jew MUST be baptized (Exodus 19:4-6)

Once that happen, then every Jew will be responsible to spread the gospel to every Gentile nation under the Earth. There are a number of OT passages that talk about this prophetic timetable, the most beautiful to me is found in Zechariah 8

3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

20 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.

22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
===

So once you understand this, you can understand why I believe Mark 16:16 is not directed to us gentiles, which address your point to me in that longer post.

We gentiles were not included in that covenant when Jesus was first sent in the flesh (Matthew 15:24, Matthew 10:5, Ephesians 2:11-12, and Romans 15:8).

If we wanted to be saved during that time period, which Paul described as time past (Ephesians 2:11-12), we had to join the nation Israel, which requires physical circumcision for males and obeying the Law of Moses. We could not approach God as gentiles during time past, without going thru the nation Israel, which was what the Roman Centurion did, as you mentioned in that post to me.

It was only after Israel the nation rejected the messiah for the final time by stoning Stephen, God announced to the whole world the good news thru the apostle Paul that, all of us, gentiles or Jews can be saved thru believing in Jesus death burial and resurrection (Romans 11:11, 1 cor 15:1-4).

Under this gospel of grace first revealed to Paul, Israel as a nation has fallen, and now both Jews and gentile have the same plan for salvation, which is salvation by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5)

 

[Guojing]

Sadly, that borders on an insulting statement concerning the Gospel of Jesus.

Both Scriptures you cherry picked have true value for the church today. In that they have true value, they are for the church today. All teachings of Jesus have true value for the church today, thus, they are all for the church today.

The idea of a two gospel ideology is an affront to the Gospel of Jesus in my opinion. Jesus came to earth to shed his blood on the cross of Calvary for all men! Thus, his Gospel is for all men!

Hold your horses, you can read my last reply above to Ahwatukee to understand, if you are keen of course.

If you aren't, then we can agree to disagree.

 

[Guojing]

well what do YOU think? what does God say about that? do any of us know better that God or have the power to over ride what He says?

Romans 5:12-19 made it pretty clear to me, under the grace dispensation that salvation cannot be lost.

We are condemned because of Adam's disobedience, we are righteous because we accept Christ obedience on the cross.

 

[Forcemyhand]

A few times lately in this forum someone comes along and discredits what Jesus states in the gospels. To date, we have been told that the gospels, the book of Acts and James are not for Gentile Christians. no teaching to be found for Gentiles there

The so called 'Jesus Seminar' dealt with Jesus some 50 years or so ago and I wonder if it has had an effect on modern teaching in Christian collages/universities, churches, especially the popular ones teaching 'gospel light' and so on

The "Jesus Seminar" was begun by New Testament "scholar" Robert Funk in the 1970s. It was Funk’s desire to rediscover the "historical Jesus" that was hidden, he believed, behind almost 2,000 years of Christian traditions, myths, and legends. The Jesus Seminar was created to examine the biblical gospels and other early Christian literature to discover who Jesus truly was and what He truly said.

The Jesus Seminar was (and still is) comprised almost entirely of individuals who deny the inspiration, authority, and inerrancy of the Bible. The agenda of the Jesus Seminar is not to discover who the historical Jesus was. Rather, the purpose of the Jesus Seminar is to attack what the Bible clearly says about who Jesus is and what He taught.

So then you have to ask yourself what it is that Jesus taught and why has it become questionable even by those who purport to believe in the deity of Christ?

the Jesus Seminar goes further though. The "scholars" of the Jesus Seminar do not believe in the deity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the miracles of Christ, or the substitutionary atonement death of Christ. Perhaps most significantly, they deny that the Holy Spirit is the author of all Scripture

is there a difference or some fine dividing line between excluding the gospels from teaching about Christianity or just saying 'we don't believe'?

I've seen some responses that seem to indicate the Bible is like a smorgasbord...just pick what you fancy and pass on the rest .

wondering what others think about this?

I 'm not studied on the "Jesus seminar" but I do know many of the main stream teachings are not based in the word.

As far as what is scripture or to be believed there are 1,000 of altered manuscripts, most just minor differences but some have whole pverses added or removed. I believe it is a point of spirit led study if truth is to be found. With that said it is a more intermediate study and not all people are there yet. As far as taking some and leaving some I think that confirming at least validity is in order before things are fully accepted, if things can be proven true than that is enough to start on and as one gains knowledge they will naturally learn more and more, making sense of the fine details that were misunderstood in the past.

With that said it is Yahshua/Jesus words above all

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”


John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

 

[Guojing]

Although Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, the dispensation of grace did not begin with him. I would remind you about the grace of God when the Lord sent Peter to the Gentile household of Cornelius, a centurion in what was called the Italian Regiment. Even when Peter was still speaking the gospel to them, He and his family and friends all began to prophesy and speak in languages.

For the point about signs and wonders which I have not addressed. Do you agree that Jews required them in order to believe, as Paul would say in 1 Cor 1:22?

Do you know the history of signs and wonders for Israel during the OT?

 

[Forcemyhand]

Although Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, the dispensation of grace did not begin with him. I would remind you about the grace of God when the Lord sent Peter to the Gentile household of Cornelius, a centurion in what was called the Italian Regiment. Even when Peter was still speaking the gospel to them, He and his family and friends all began to prophesy and speak in languages.

The Messiah sent all the disciples to the Gentile nations,

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

“nations” is word #G1484 ἔθνος ethnos (eth'-nos) n., 1. a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe., 2. (specially) a foreign (non-Jewish) one, Gentiles., 3. (usually, by implication) pagan., [probably from G1486], KJV: Gentile, heathen, nation, people, Root(s): G1486

foremost being Peter.

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

 

[Guojing]

The Messiah sent all the disciples to the Gentile nations,

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

What do you think Jesus meant by the phrase that I have bold?

What did Jesus taught them, say in the entire Book of Matthew? Did they had to teach all the gentile nations to also obey all of those?

 

[Forcemyhand]

What do you think Jesus meant by the phrase that I have bold?

What did Jesus taught them, say in the entire Book of Matthew? Did they had to teach all the gentile nations to also obey all of those?

In context He is speaking to His disciples, so we can safely say that say His interactions with people like the Samaritan and other unique situations may not apply but everything He taught the disciples as doctrine would definitely apply.

A key verse imo is this:

John/Yahanan 7:16-17, “Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority.”

If we know the word well we can know, for this is exactly what Yahshua/Jesus just said...

and no the Messiah did not teach the Gentile nations Himself, He sent all of His disciples, the foremost being Kepha/Peter to do so.

 

[Guojing]

In context He is speaking to His disciples, so we can safely say that say His interactions with people like the Samaritan and other unique situations may not apply but everything He taught the disciples as doctrine would definitely apply.
.

So my question is, are the 11 supposed to teach the gentile nations to also obey everything he commanded them in the gospel of Matthew, which includes passages like Matthew 10:5, as well as the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17-19)?

Do you think it will make sense?

 

[Forcemyhand]

So my question is, are the 11 supposed to teach the gentile nations to also obey everything he commanded them in the gospel of Matthew, which includes passages like Matthew 10:5, as well as the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17-19)?

Do you think it will make sense?

you are funny..

Yahshua told them not to go to gentiles at that time..

Matthew 10:5-6,יהושע sent these twelve out, having commanded them, saying, “Do not go into the way of the nations, and do not enter a city of the Shomeronim, but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.

right before ascension He then told them to go to the gentiles..

Matthew 24:14, “And this Good News of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.”

John 10:16, “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd.”

The 12 were sent to the all nations Gentiles included by the Messiah Himself:

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

“nations” is word #G1484 ἔθνος ethnos (eth'-nos) n., 1. a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe., 2. (specially) a foreign (non-Jewish) one, Gentiles., 3. (usually, by implication) pagan., [probably from G1486], KJV: Gentile, heathen, nation, people, Root(s): G1486

Yet Paul says Peter was sent to the Jews:

Galatians 2:7-8, “In fact, they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised. For the one who worked through Peter by making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me by sending me to the Gentiles.”

However Peter says he was sent to the Gentiles:

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

 

[Guojing]

you are funny..

Yahshua told them not to go to gentiles at that time..

Matthew 10:5-6,יהושע sent these twelve out, having commanded them, saying, “Do not go into the way of the nations, and do not enter a city of the Shomeronim, but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.

right before ascension He then told them to go to the gentiles..

Matthew 24:14, “And this Good News of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.”

John 10:16, “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd.”

The 12 were sent to the all nations Gentiles included by the Messiah Himself:

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

“nations” is word #G1484 ἔθνος ethnos (eth'-nos) n., 1. a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe., 2. (specially) a foreign (non-Jewish) one, Gentiles., 3. (usually, by implication) pagan., [probably from G1486], KJV: Gentile, heathen, nation, people, Root(s): G1486

Yet Paul says Peter was sent to the Jews:

Galatians 2:7-8, “In fact, they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised. For the one who worked through Peter by making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me by sending me to the Gentiles.”

However Peter says he was sent to the Gentiles:

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

Did Jesus forget to tell them after Matt 28, "oh by the way, the command I gave you at Matthew 10:5 no longer holds", you can go to all gentile nations now.

And if the 11 heard that, even though it was not recorded in Scriptures, do you think it will make sense for Peter to resist going to Cornelius house in Acts 10, and to tell him that it is against the Law for a Jew to associate with Gentiles.

And when the Jews questioned Peter in Acts 11, why didn't he just tell them "Hey, Jesus told us after Matt 28 that oh by the way, the command I gave you at Matthew 10:5 no longer holds", you can go to all gentile nations now!"

Finally, what about commanding them to also follow the Law of Moses?

 

[Forcemyhand]

Did Jesus forget to tell them after Matt 28, "oh by the way, the command I gave you at Matthew 10:5 no longer holds", you can go to all gentile nations now.

That is exactly what He did, yet you ignore the verses where He does and hold on to the verse where He was still working within Yisrael.

And when the Jews questioned Peter in Acts 11, why didn't he just tell them "Hey, Jesus told us after Matt 28 that oh by the way, the command I gave you at Matthew 10:5 no longer holds", you can go to all gentile nations now!"

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

Acts 1:6-8, “6 So when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Master, would You at this time restore the reign to Yisra’ĕl?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 “But you shall receive power when the Set-apart Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be My witnesses in Yerushalayim, and in all Yehuḏah and Shomeron, and to the end of the earth.”

And if the 11 heard that, even though it was not recorded in Scriptures, do you think it will make sense for Peter to resist going to Cornelius house in Acts 10, and to tell him that it is against the Law for a Jew to associate with Gentiles.

Or Peter had been raise on takanot and ma'aasim, and the holy spirit reminded him of what Yahshua taught:

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

Maybe there is something in Matt 23 that says to follow Yah's Law and not their man made laws?

Finally, what about commanding them to also follow the Law of Moses?

You might want to learn what the King said...

Luke 16:16-17,“The Torah and the prophets are until Yoḥanan. Since then the reign of Elohim is being announced, and everyone is doing violence upon it. “And it is easier for the heaven and the earth to pass away than for one tittle of the Torah to fall."

Revelation 14:12-13,Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones,c here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of יהושע. . And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest from their labours, and their works follow with them.”

Revelation 22:14-15, “Blessed are those doing His commands,c so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city. (Long before the books were compiled to form “The New Testament,” Rev 22:14 was quoted, as it is here given, by Tertullian (CE 208), and by Cyprian (CE 251) – see the well-known Antenicene Fathers) “But outside are the dogs and those who enchant with drugs, and those who whore, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and all who love and do falsehood."

but remember anyone who doesn't play religion the main stream way will be rejected...

 

[Absolutely]

Wrong. Paul addressed Jews as his brethren. James is addressing his Jewish brethren, the twelve tribes.

James is one of the earliest books.
Hello...the church was jewish!!!

Pauline radicals never ever read the whole book where james talks of elders of the church and laying hands on the sick.

That book would go to deaf ears if it were addressed to non messianic jews.

This is from "biblia.com";

Some date the letter in the early 60s. There are indications, however, that it was written before a.d. 50:

Its distinctively Jewish nature suggests that it was composed when the church was still predominantly Jewish.
It reflects a simple church order—officers of the church are called “elders” (5:14) and “teachers” (3:1).
No reference is made to the controversy over Gentile circumcision.
The Greek term synagoge (“synagogue” or “meeting”) is used to designate the meeting or meeting place of the church (2:2).
If this early dating is correct, this letter is the earliest of all the NT writings—with the possible exception of Galatians.

 

[Guojing]

That is exactly what He did, yet you ignore the verses where He does and hold on to the verse where He was still working within Yisrael.




Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

Acts 1:6-8, “6 So when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Master, would You at this time restore the reign to Yisra’ĕl?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 “But you shall receive power when the Set-apart Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be My witnesses in Yerushalayim, and in all Yehuḏah and Shomeron, and to the end of the earth.”

So my question is, which you avoided answering, why didn’t Peter used those scriptures that you quoted, when the Jewish believers criticised him for going to the gentiles in acts 11?

 

[John146]

Did Jesus forget to tell them after Matt 28, "oh by the way, the command I gave you at Matthew 10:5 no longer holds", you can go to all gentile nations now.

And if the 11 heard that, even though it was not recorded in Scriptures, do you think it will make sense for Peter to resist going to Cornelius house in Acts 10, and to tell him that it is against the Law for a Jew to associate with Gentiles.

And when the Jews questioned Peter in Acts 11, why didn't he just tell them "Hey, Jesus told us after Matt 28 that oh by the way, the command I gave you at Matthew 10:5 no longer holds", you can go to all gentile nations now!"

Finally, what about commanding them to also follow the Law of Moses?

There were Jews scattered about in all nations. Many came to Jerusalem at Pentecost.

Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

 

[Nehemiah6]

A few times lately in this forum someone comes along and discredits what Jesus states in the gospels. To date, we have been told that the gospels, the book of Acts and James are not for Gentile Christians. no teaching to be found for Gentiles there

This is more due to Hyper-Dispensationalism which vainly tries to split the Church between a Jewish Church and a Gentile Church. Of course, that is all nonsense.

 

[John146]

This is more due to Hyper-Dispensationalism which vainly tries to split the Church between a Jewish Church and a Gentile Church. Of course, that is all nonsense.

When did the Church begin? After the resurrection...

During the earthly ministry of Christ, He could not have been speaking to the Church, the body of Christ. He was speaking to the Jews, His physical chosen people. What was the message?

 

[lenna]

I guess some of these brethren had not received the word and their souls were not saved. But hey....they are brethren.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Can you post just one other scripture, and there are dozens, where the phrase “twelve tribes” is referring to christians and not the nation of Israel?

do you understand what the word BELIEVER means?

that would solve that great puzzle you have circulating between your ears

over and over and over the same thing with you no matter how many times people point out to you that JAMES is not a part of the OT

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. good thing to do

When did the Church begin? After the resurrection...

During the earthly ministry of Christ, He could not have been speaking to the Church, the body of Christ. He was speaking to the Jews, His physical chosen people. What was the message?

wrong

again

Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life and He said that IN THE GOSPELS

so if the gospels are only for the Jews, then it seems we are left out ... according to you of course

get some comprehension already. it's not like we have not tried to open your eyes here and in many other threads