Calvinism and Context?
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A careful analysis of the context of John 12:32 yields the strong probably that the "all" here would be meant as both Jews and Greeks. In other words, beyond the bounds of Israel. Nevertheless, this inclusive group still needs to be drawn and called.
Well, I have to wonder how people can miss the 800lb gorilla in the room.The Calvinist will often say, Jesus only died for those whom God chose [as "His"] before time [before creation].
However, Romans 8:9b says this:
"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
[the underlined is true of us before we come to faith in Christ; therefore the bold is true of us before and up to that point]
QFT. = )
Avoidance is not reconciliation.
https://biblehub.net/searchnt.php?q=elect
https://biblehub.net/searchnt.php?q=election
Sorry. Im enjoying my walk here in the botanical gradens. We are at the stunning Chinese exhibit. Maybe later.
And have a choosy choicy day!
My emphasis was on "who" does the drawing (from the point in time of His Cross and forward). Jesus said, "I... will draw all to MYSELF" (my point had to do with the "chronology" that is so often disregarded and overlooked).
I believe it is the same for Romans 9, in view of what Romans 11:32 says, "For God hath concluded them ALL [Jew AND Gentile alike] in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL [Jew AND Gentile alike!]"... but this is to consider Romans 9:18 in its proper context, where it had said, "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth." [the overall CONTEXT of Romans 9-11 being "nations"... "Israel [singular nation]," and "Gentiles [plural nations]"... and this understanding carries through to our grasp of "eschatology" (I only mention this b/c you and I both agree on "pre-trib"... but "pre-trib" is not really a thing apart from grasping this distinction between "Israel" and "the nations/Gentiles" (here in this context) not to mention also "the Church which is His body" (wherein there is NO distinction, in our standing before God "IN CHRIST")]... IOW, the "on whom He will" (9:18) has to do with their idea that the Jews were "IN" with God by reason of their birth/heritage (them, and them alone! no one else!), but Paul is saying, who are you to say that God cannot have mercy on the Gentiles IF HE WANTS TO (and such was indeed His plan!) The "understood question" underlying the CONTEXT being, "what of the promises made TO ISRAEL?!" (now; ...where are they?! [Jesus died, and...??])
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EleventhHour
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Calvinism defines the elect as that select group whom, alone, God has from eternity past appointed to salvation and this not the correct understanding of the word.
All others are predestined by God to eternal damnation.
The gospel can be preached day and night to the latter and there would be no point, because they are totally incapable of believing it.
Godā¦gives the faith to believe to the selected alone, though He could do so for all.
Yet never is this absurd doctrine evidenced in Scripture.
God also tells Job that he is speaking in ignorance, and Job agrees ((42:3))
God also says the company Job has been keeping has been wicked ((42:7))
God also says that He repays each man for his deeds ((Matthew 16:27))
Nice, enjoy.
Though when you have time, I would appreciate the argument for reading "all" as groups rather than universal, especially considering that the direct context of that statement was following the declaration that judgment was coming and the ruler of the world would be cast out.
Oops... to go along with my Post #707, I'd meant to add (but somehow dropped it):
I was responding, in part, to this also ^
I was responding, in part, to this also ^
that's what Elihu says. ((35:13-16))
he says if you're going to speak before God, it should be praise, not complaint. ((35:9-12))
Yes yes, we know of these Calvinistic ideas.
You still need to deal with the elect and election. Its there. Its literally EVERYWHERE.
Now I have zero problems with election. It is fully and seamlessly inegrated into present day systematic theology. Which does no good if you simply "don't get it".
Fortunately for me I do. And I sleep well at night believe it.
All are agreed Job speaks in ignorance, but it seems a stretch to state God's reprimand of Job's 3 friends is "keeping company of the wicked" in the way Elihu says it.
You still haven't addressed the basic premise, though, that Elihu regardless of whether he says some true things stood in the place of God since Job had made the plea of innocence. The silence on the part of Job and God can be read either way, with Job not answering because Elihu has no place to speak and God not answering for the same reason.
Oh, I sifted it out of various commentaries. No stroke of genius on my part. You have a few hours to confim my assessment.
Enjoy!
Job agrees with Elihu & God that Job should quit complaining, that it is evil to do so. ((42:1-6))
this is how that Job is righteous: he hears and obeys rebuke ((Job 35:9-16, Psalm 141:5, Proverbs 9:8, 19:25, 25:12, 27:6, Ecclesiastes 7:5, etc etc etc))
What does āallā mean?....someone who is chosen and drawn suppresses nothing.....He knew his children before they were born.
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EleventhHour
Guest
Of course Iām quoting a single verse..because you donāt understand it..like the other questions I asked....
What does it mean?
I was chosen...and I will never ever deny it....God wonāt let me.
We were chosen,drawn and saved....by God.
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