Calvinism and Context?

[cv5]

So you maintain God choose some and denied salvation to others.

There you go again putting words in my mouth. I never said that you did.

Please don't compound that error by you thinking thoughts supposedly in my head and then posting them either.

 

[Bbrdrd]

OK. Back to the nitty-gritty.
Can you please render an opinion on this post that I made earlier?

#187

First you've got to clarify, are you saying God made Judas sin? What interest is there that it was foretold, besides showing God's omniscience?

 

[EleventhHour]

There you go again putting words in my mouth. I never said that you did.

Please don't compound that error by you thinking thoughts supposedly in my head and then posting them either.

The elect are God's chosen right...He chose them... isn't that what you believe?

 

[cv5]

First you've got to clarify, are you saying God made Judas sin? What interest is there that it was foretold, besides showing God's omniscience?

Well for starters I would like to know if Judas ever had a plan B that was available.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Well for starters I would like to know if Judas ever had a plan B that was available.

That's not answering either of my questions. Are you saying God caused Judas to sin? If not, besides demonstrating omniscience what value is there that it was foretold?

 

[cv5]

The elect are God's chosen right...He chose them... isn't that what you believe?

Correct. Get an exhaustive concordance and look up "elect election chose chosen" etc.
Trust me they're in there.

 

[cv5]

That's not answering either of my questions. Are you saying God caused Judas to sin? If not, besides demonstrating omniscience what value is there that it was foretold?

I am not "saying" anything I am asking something.
In your opinion did Judas have a plan B available to him? Other than damnation?

 

[Bbrdrd]

I am not "saying" anything I am asking something.
In your opinion did Judas have a plan B available to him? Other than damnation?

You're citing Judas as supporting your position, so clearly you're trying to say something with the example. It's quite possible to uphold that everything Judas did was his own choice and foretelling simply demonstrates God's omniscience. So what's your point? Why the useless philosophizing and the unwillingness to answer a simple question about what your point in using the example of Judas is?

 

[cv5]

You're citing Judas as supporting your position, so clearly you're trying to say something with the example. It's quite possible to uphold that everything Judas did was his own choice and foretelling simply demonstrates God's omniscience. So what's your point? Why the useless philosophizing and the unwillingness to answer a simple question about what your point in using the example of Judas is?

No need to be so defensive. That was an honest point of discussion. My point was to simply point out an honest point for discussion.

 

[Bbrdrd]

No need to be so defensive. That was an honest point of discussion. My point was to simply point out an honest point for discussion.

There's no defensiveness, simply trying to get you to state clearly what you are trying to say with the example. It seems you're trying to simultaneously imply something while denying that's exactly what you're saying.

 

[dcontroversal]

incorrect.. scripture proves this wrong again.

So that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 5:21

What is counted for righteousness >> faith and faith precedes eternal life.

Again regeneration preceding faith is false according to scripture.

These jokers absolutely skew the truth on every turn....just another cultish belief.......rather sickening to be honest

 

[dcontroversal]

I'll call your pharaoh and raise you Judas and the antichrist. Let me add Pilate as a side bet.

you added nothing pal....zero...nadda...zip...zilch.....the three you cited in no way, shape or form proves your calvinistic blather....

 

[cv5]

incorrect.. scripture proves this wrong again.

So that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 5:21

What is counted for righteousness >> faith and faith precedes eternal life.

Again regeneration preceding faith is false according to scripture.

Incidentally, speaking to faith, This also does not originate within ourselves.....

Heb 12:2
looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who in view of the joy lying before Him endured the cross, having despised its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[cv5]

There's no defensiveness, simply trying to get you to state clearly what you are trying to say with the example. It seems you're trying to simultaneously imply something while denying that's exactly what you're saying.

There you go trying to read my thoughts again lol. A very bad habit it really does ruin the dialogue.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I have to tell you there is a strong case to be made that insofar as calling and election are concerned, the ation of Israel is in a sense a microcosm of the elect Christians as it pertains to the entire world Jew and gentile.

"Yet every time that phrase occurs its an expanding of mercy, with God expressing His desire to show mercy"

Expanding of mercy? Not hardly. In fact it is the compression/limitation/narrowing of mercy that Paul is speaking to in Romans 9. What Paul is saying is that for whatever reasons God is withdrawing mercy upon some (and not others!) according to His ineffable will. And then Paul has to go on to defend God's sovereign decision in doing so!

How anyone can ignore this notion that these decisions occurred (In the case of Isaac and Jacob here noted) before their birth simply beggars the imagination.

Consider what I've posted in the past:

[quoting my past posts on this]

I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):

[quoting Wigram]

"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.
"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."

[also]

"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."

--George V Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041

____________

[quoting that other article by Wigram]

"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would. [And this, He indeed "willed" to do!] Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."

-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4 George V. Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282

[end quoting; bold and underline mine, parenthesis original]

The case of pharaoh is equally compelling. Gods will for pharaoh was destruction, if for no other reason than His Namesake.
10And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man,even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it was said to her,“The older shall serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Here's how I see the phrase (in Rom9:17) "[I have] raised you up"... this means, "[raised up(/out)] to a position of prominence" [i.e. as a pharaoh / into a leadership position--and for the "purpose" stated] (in a not-too-different-way from that of which we see in the Acts 7:18 verse where it says, "another king AROSE which knew not Joseph"--yes, a different Greek word, but not entirely out of the realm of similar meaning, here).

Just my two cents. = )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Incidentally, speaking to faith, This also does not originate within ourselves.....

Heb 12:2
looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who in view of the joy lying before Him endured the cross, having despised its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Here's how I'm seeing this ^ verse:

Hebrews 12:2 -

"fixing our attention on Jesus, the pioneer [/Originator] and perfecter [/Consummater] of *the faith, who, in view of the joy set before him, endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."


["*THE faith" being "that body of truth" which we see in Scripture following His death / burial / resurrection / ascension / exaltation... and "having been once for all [/one time] delivered to the saints" (the "delivered" word being the same as found in 1Cor15:3-4, etc)... IOW, not "personal faith" (a person "believing/trusting" in Christ)]

 

[EleventhHour]

Pharaoh hardened his own heart the first three rounds.....his OWN choices set the course for what happened next.....

God is longsuffering not WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance.

Nice try and you just contradicted the bible twice by the above post!

See how they do not respond to this biblical statement of fact!

One can't have truth getting in the way of one's system.

 

[EleventhHour]

No you've got all that wrong. I said ELECTION aka choosing precedes believing.
In fact it is indisputably unequivocally scriptural that election precedes one's own BIRTH, furthermore it precedes the creation of the universe.

Eternal life for the elect has already been granted from eternity past. Faith and believing are merely the present-day assent (by the work of the Holy Spirit) to the foregoing.

This post earned you a ribbon...ha

Can you be honest then?

You only want to deal with the elect, and side step the implications of your dogma.

The non-elect are never regenerated so they can believe correct?

So why are they created and how does God hold them accountable for their unbelief when they were never regenerated so they can believe?

Is this not the logical outcome of your dogma.. few Calvinists want to be honest about this why is that?

He shall never be clearly persuaded, as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from eternal election, which illumines God’s grace by this contrast: that he does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others.”
John Calvin

 

[EleventhHour]

These jokers absolutely skew the truth on every turn....just another cultish belief.......rather sickening to be honest

Agree ....I do not know what is worse the dogma or the constant denial of biblical truth to support it... both "sickening" imo

 

[Bbrdrd]

There you go trying to read my thoughts again lol. A very bad habit it really does ruin the dialogue.

So why don't you say what you're trying to use that example for instead of playing games being evasive and then making accusations?