What does 'Repent' mean ?

[TheDivineWatermark]

Repent-

[...]
The writer of Hebrews refers to the God who “will not change his mind” (7:21) and Esau, who could not achieve repentance (12:17).

= ) Consider the following, which I've posted before:

[quoting old post]

[quoting Gaebelein Commentary on Heb12:17]

"In Christ the believer is sanctified; as Martin Luther used to say “My holiness is in Heaven.” The exhortation here means to pursue that holiness into which grace has called us, which grace has given and for which grace gives daily power. Closely connected with this is the warning which follows in Hebrews 12:15-17. The man who falls short of the grace of God, who lacketh that grace which is in Christ Jesus, his heart not resting in Him, is a mere professing believer and Possesseth not the holiness, which grace alone can give. He is a root of bitterness and a profane, and earthly-minded person, as Esau was who sold his birthright.

"(The time came when he regretted that for a paltry gratification he forfeited his right. Afterwards, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected. For though he sought carefully with tears to change his father’s mind he found (in Isaac) no place for change of mind. This seems to be the meaning of this difficult passage, Esau is never represented as an apostle [<---I think that is a typo, and that he means "an apostate," as he uses later], as one who professed and appeared to be a believer, and then fell away. So (apart from other reasons) the meaning of the apostle cannot be that Esau, as an apostate, was not able to find repentance. But we know that, notwithstanding his vehement and urgent entreaties, Isaac could not change his mind, or repent him of what he had done in conferring the blessing on Jacob, which God approved of” Saphir.)"

[end quoting Gaebelein]

So, in view of the above explanation on that text, consider:

"he was rejected" - G593 - apodokimazó (from 575 /apó, "away from" and 1381 /dokimázō, "to prove, test"),
...Esau was "rejected" in the sense that his father Isaac could not change his mind, or repent of him what he had already done in conferring the blessing on Jacob, which God approved of. I just point this out because, here, in this example, the idea being conveyed on the surface I believe means he was rejected from Isaac conferring the blessing on him/Esau.


[end quoting old post; bold and underline mine; bracketed insert mine; parentheses original]

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Those to whom those verses are speaking of did not recognise the voice of Jesus and His words because they were not following the Fathers words. Simple . No gnostic interpretation needed here . Not everything is ' mystical ' in the bible . Being pricked in the heart is not mystical . Lydia's heart opening is not mystical . Calvinists not every verse is about you.

You are a prime example of the saying that "it is much harder to teach the truths of Christ's doctrine to those who have been taught a false doctrine, than it is to teach those who know nothing about the doctrine".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your theology rests upon giving the natural man "the ability to discern the things of the Spirit", which contradicts 1 Cor 2:14. All scriptures must harmonize if you are to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught.

The people in 1Cor3:1-4 did not understand those things, and they were believers/saints/members of the Church which is His body/saved persons. So it cannot be "salvation" that he could not speak with them about (they already were saved. )

 

[throughfaith]

You are trying too hard to make this say something that it does not say. The good work that God began in them is "their fellowship in the gospel (verse 5) and God will perform their fellowship in the gospel until Christ comes at the last day.

' fellowship in the gospel ?

Your theology rests upon giving the natural man "the ability to discern the things of the Spirit", which contradicts 1 Cor 2:14. All scriptures must harmonize if you are to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught.

Not really . it doesn't effect my theology one bit Paul really is using a non sequitur in one verse to talk about a lost man not being to understand the things of the Spirit . If Paul was randomly saying lost people cannot believe Gods revelation ( the Gospel ) then that would be something else .

 

[garee]

I agree with you, but most on this forum do not believe that God put the Holy Spirit within the old testament saints.

Thanks for the reply.

I am aware and not trying to cause dissention. I hope I am not misunderstood . Possibly adding a little shade of color.
Not a salvation issue .More how does the bible inform us how we can hear God not seen?

By a faith that came from hearing God Abel was given favor or grace.

The faith of Christ worked in all old testament saints .By it they looked ahead to the sufferings of Christ. By the same spirit of faith we look back to that glorious day .

1 Peter seems to support the idea. Receiving the end of his faith that works in us or power to understand from the beginning.

1 Peter 1:8-11 King James Version (KJV) Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[throughfaith]

You are a prime example of the saying that "it is much harder to teach the truths of Christ's doctrine to those who have been taught a false doctrine, than it is to teach those who know nothing about the doctrine".

Chokes on coffee ...

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I believe you have left the very most important part when Jesus said to the doubting Jews so it lacks your explanation. Let me check what's in the word especially vv. 25-26. Believe it or not, it takes belief and unbelief that gives evidence if they were of sheep or not. Since Jesus told them already who he is and he is clear, it will just take belief or unbelief. He has told them and to whomsoever "believe in him" will be given eternal life. The below passages may speaks a volume on this belief and unbelief. Christ speaks that belief on Him results to having eternal life (regeneration) and yet there those who will not put their faith on him "Believest thou this?" Of course, those who rejected Christ will never belong to his sheep. They were not part of his sheep because in the first place they didn't believe.

John 10:25-26
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

You are assuming that because of their belief they will get regenerated. I do not believe that the scriptures will harmonize with that theory. 1 Cor 2:14 says that the natural man, before he has been regenerated, cannot discern (believe) in the things of the Spirit. Also Eph 2:1, says that the natural man is still dead (spiritually) at the time of his quickening. It seems that the theory of belief following regeneration, quickening, would harmonize with these scriptures. What is your interpretation of these scriptures?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The people in 1Cor3:1-4 did not understand those things, and they were believers/saints/members of the Church which is His body/saved persons. So it cannot be "salvation" that he could not speak with them about (they already were saved. )

Chapter 3 of Corinthians is not speaking of the natural man, but to regenerated "babes in Christ". The natural man, before regeneration is not "in Christ" as a newborn babe, or otherwise. After we have been born again, we still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature, Paul explains the warfare that we have because of this.

 

[throughfaith]

I agree with you, but most on this forum do not believe that God put the Holy Spirit within the old testament saints.

Because its only possible after the resurection . The old testament saints saw the Holy Spirit depart / come upon ect . David knew it left saul ect . This and regeneration precedes Faith should actually make Calvinism as radical and as close to the strange concepts we see in cults . But amazingly its still around today . Even though it comes and goes in popularity every 5-6 years .

 

[throughfaith]

You are assuming that because of their belief they will get regenerated. I do not believe that the scriptures will harmonize with that theory. 1 Cor 2:14 says that the natural man, before he has been regenerated, cannot discern (believe) in the things of the Spirit. Also Eph 2:1, says that the natural man is still dead (spiritually) at the time of his quickening. It seems that the theory of belief following regeneration, quickening, would harmonize with these scriptures. What is your interpretation of these scriptures?

You need a verse that says unbelievers cannot believe the Gospel , but there isn't any . And as I keep pointing out verse 6 and verse 15 or 1 cor 2 clearly are saying the difference between understanding the things ( not the Gospel ,they already understand that as Paul is talking to believer's) that the ' full grown do understand.
verse 6
We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought: Asv

verse 15 .But he that is spiritual ( full grown / mature judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Otherwise your saying all believer's carnal alike Judgeth all things and judged of no man .

1 cor 6.5 5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

1 cor 3 and you have to then make this verse say 1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto Christians , but as unto unbelievers , even as unto babes in Christ.
Which makes no sense .

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Because its only possible after the resurection . The old testament saints saw the Holy Spirit depart / come upon ect . David knew it left saul ect . This and regeneration precedes Faith should actually make Calvinism as radical and as close to the strange concepts we see in cults . But amazingly its still around today . Even though it comes and goes in popularity every 5-6 years .

Isaiah 63:11, Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that "put his holy Spirit within him?" What is your interpretation of this scripture?

 

[Sipsey]

Isaiah 63:11, Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that "put his holy Spirit within him?" What is your interpretation of this scripture?

Here is a clearer translation.

Isaiah 63:11 (ASV)
[11] Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Cloud by day, fire by night)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You need a verse that says unbelievers cannot believe the Gospel , but there isn't any . And as I keep pointing out verse 6 and verse 15 or 1 cor 2 clearly are saying the difference between understanding the things ( not the Gospel ,they already understand that as Paul is talking to believer's) that the ' full grown do understand.
verse 6
We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought: Asv

verse 15 .But he that is spiritual ( full grown / mature judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Otherwise your saying all believer's carnal alike Judgeth all things and judged of no man .

1 cor 6.5 5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

1 cor 3 and you have to then make this verse say 1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto Christians , but as unto unbelievers , even as unto babes in Christ.
Which makes no sense .

It makes no sense to you, because you are trying to insert "the natural man as being babes in Christ". I have told you before, that the natural man, before he has been regenerated, IS NOT IN CHRIST, as a babe, or as an adult. The natural man is absolutely not "in Christ" at all. The "babe in Christ" is quickened together with Christ, Eph 2:5.

I do understand, your problem, in trying to enable the natural man to be able to understand the gospel and believe, because that is the only way that you can uphold your false doctrine for man to have to do something to get saved eternally, Keep searching, but you won't find any scriptures to harmonize with your false doctrine.

 

[throughfaith]

It makes no sense to you, because you are trying to insert "the natural man as being babes in Christ". I have told you before, that the natural man, before he has been regenerated, IS NOT IN CHRIST, as a babe, or as an adult. The natural man is absolutely not "in Christ" at all. The "babe in Christ" is quickened together with Christ, Eph 2:5.

I do understand, your problem, in trying to enable the natural man to be able to understand the gospel and believe, because that is the only way that you can uphold your false doctrine for man to have to do something to get saved eternally, Keep searching, but you won't find any scriptures to harmonize with your false doctrine.

I notice each time you respond you dont offer any explanation of the point Paul is making to the corinthians. No context of the point being made , the context of the verses , why he's writing. I keep responding with the verses given. Your off into the airy Fairies begging the question as if Paul is labouring to these struggling believers " hey I know I'm changing the subject guys ,but the unsaved man cannot believe the gospel until he is saved , but as I was saying
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"
" Erm thanks Paul ,I think ? no sorry why did you say that again?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Here is a clearer translation.

Isaiah 63:11 (ASV)
[11] Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit in the midst of them?

Yes, I do understand that there are man made interpretations in other versions of the bible that quote it differently than the KJV. That's the reason that so many of God's children, like yourself, are misguided into thinking that eternal salvation is accomplished by man's works. Taking credit for their eternal salvation, instead of giving God the credit.

 

[Sipsey]

Yes, I do understand that there are man made interpretations in other versions of the bible that quote it differently than the KJV. That's the reason that so many of God's children, like yourself, are misguided into thinking that eternal salvation is accomplished by man's works. Taking credit for their eternal salvation, instead of giving God the credit.

I’m afraid you are making assumptions, and wrongs ones at that.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I notice each time you respond you dont offer any explanation of the point Paul is making to the corinthians. No context of the point being made , the context of the verses , why he's writing. I keep responding with the verses given. Your off into the airy Fairies begging the question as if Paul is labouring to these struggling believers " hey I know I'm changing the subject guys ,but the unsaved man cannot believe the gospel until he is saved , but as I was saying
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"
" Erm thanks Paul ,I think ? no sorry why did you say that again?

You are misunderstanding the scriptures again. When the natural man is quickened to a new spiritual life,Eph 2:1, he does not get rid of his old fleshly nature, but carries the baggage of his fleshly nature to his grave. Paul explains the warfare we have inside of us because of this, Rom 7:18.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I’m afraid you are making assumptions, and wrongs ones at that.

I am sorry, but you seem to be assuming much more than me.

 

[Sipsey]

I am sorry, but you seem to be assuming much more than me.

I am sorry, but you seem to be assuming much more than me.

If you think that the KJV is a perfect translation Of the Hebrew and Greek into modern English, then I truely feel sorry for you.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I’m afraid you are making assumptions, and wrongs ones at that.

It seems to me you are correct, Sipsey.

When I look at the listing where that word (in Isaiah 63:11) is used elsewhere (that exact word--21x), it seems to me (I could be wrong) that wherever it speaks of the PLURAL that it means "in the midst" (like, in the midst of y'all, or among y'all); but where it refers to a SINGULAR person/entity, then it means "within," as in, within the person/individual (or, perhaps, an entity personified... or corporate body considered as a singular entity, perhaps, like a FLOCK)...

bə·qir·bōw — 21 Occurrences

Genesis 24:3
HEB: אָנֹכִ֖י יוֹשֵׁ֥ב בְּקִרְבּֽוֹ׃
NAS: of the Canaanites, among whom
KJV: of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:
INT: I live among
Exodus 3:20
HEB: אֲשֶׁ֥ר אֶֽעֱשֶׂ֖ה בְּקִרְבּ֑וֹ וְאַחֲרֵי־ כֵ֖ן
NAS: I shall do in the midst of it; and after
KJV: which I will do in the midst thereof: and after
INT: which shall do the midst and after after that
Exodus 23:21
HEB: כִּ֥י שְׁמִ֖י בְּקִרְבּֽוֹ׃
KJV: for my name [is] in him.
INT: since my name him
Numbers 11:4
HEB: וְהָֽאסַפְסֻף֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר בְּקִרְבּ֔וֹ הִתְאַוּ֖וּ תַּאֲוָ֑ה
NAS: who were among them had
KJV: And the mixt multitude that [was] among them fell a lusting:
INT: the rabble who were among had greedy
Numbers 11:21
HEB: אֲשֶׁ֥ר אָנֹכִ֖י בְּקִרְבּ֑וֹ וְאַתָּ֣ה אָמַ֗רְתָּ
NAS: The people, among whom
KJV: The people, among whom I [am], [are] six
INT: after I among You have said
Numbers 14:11
HEB: אֲשֶׁ֥ר עָשִׂ֖יתִי בְּקִרְבּֽוֹ׃
NAS: which I have performed in their midst?
KJV: which I have shewed among them?
INT: which have performed among
Deuteronomy 31:16
HEB: בָא־ שָׁ֙מָּה֙ בְּקִרְבּ֔וֹ וַעֲזָבַ֕נִי וְהֵפֵר֙
NAS: of the land, into the midst of which
KJV: whither they go [to be] among them, and will forsake
INT: are going into the midst and will forsake and break
Joshua 24:5
HEB: כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר עָשִׂ֖יתִי בְּקִרְבּ֑וֹ וְאַחַ֖ר הוֹצֵ֥אתִי
NAS: I did in its midst; and afterward
KJV: I did among them: and afterward
INT: what did midst and afterward brought
Judges 1:29
HEB: וַיֵּ֧שֶׁב הַֽכְּנַעֲנִ֛י בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ בְּגָֽזֶר׃ פ
NAS: lived in Gezer among them.
KJV: dwelt in Gezer among them.
INT: lived the Canaanites among Gezer
Judges 1:30
HEB: וַיֵּ֤שֶׁב הַֽכְּנַעֲנִי֙ בְּקִרְבּ֔וֹ וַיִּֽהְי֖וּ לָמַֽס׃
NAS: lived among them and became
KJV: dwelt among them, and became tributaries.
INT: lived the Canaanites among and became to forced
1 Samuel 25:37
HEB: וַיָּ֤מָת לִבּוֹ֙ בְּקִרְבּ֔וֹ וְה֖וּא הָיָ֥ה
NAS: died within him so that he became
KJV: died within him, and he became [as] a stone.
INT: died and his heart within he became
1 Kings 3:28
HEB: חָכְמַ֧ת אֱלֹהִ֛ים בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ לַעֲשׂ֥וֹת מִשְׁפָּֽט׃
KJV: of God [was] in him, to do
INT: the wisdom of God him to administer justice
Job 20:14
HEB: מְרוֹרַ֖ת פְּתָנִ֣ים בְּקִרְבּֽוֹ׃
NAS: To the venom of cobras within him.
KJV: [it is] the gall of asps within him.
INT: to the venom of cobras within
Psalm 109:18
HEB: וַתָּבֹ֣א כַמַּ֣יִם בְּקִרְבּ֑וֹ וְ֝כַשֶּׁ֗מֶן בְּעַצְמוֹתָֽיו׃
NAS: And it entered into his body like water
KJV: so let it come into his bowels like water,
INT: entered water his body oil his bones
Isaiah 19:1
HEB: מִצְרַ֖יִם יִמַּ֥ס בְּקִרְבּֽוֹ׃
NAS: will melt within them.
KJV: shall melt in the midst of it.
INT: of the Egyptians will melt within
Isaiah 19:3
HEB: רֽוּחַ־ מִצְרַ֙יִם֙ בְּקִרְבּ֔וֹ וַעֲצָת֖וֹ אֲבַלֵּ֑עַ
NAS: will be demoralized within them; And I will confound
KJV: shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy
INT: the spirit of the Egyptians within their strategy will confound
Isaiah 25:11
HEB: וּפֵרַ֤שׂ יָדָיו֙ בְּקִרְבּ֔וֹ כַּאֲשֶׁ֛ר יְפָרֵ֥שׂ
NAS: out his hands in the middle of it As a swimmer
KJV: his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth
INT: will spread his hands the middle after spreads
Isaiah 29:23
HEB: מַעֲשֵׂ֥ה יָדַ֛י בְּקִרְבּ֖וֹ יַקְדִּ֣ישֽׁוּ שְׁמִ֑י
NAS: of My hands, in his midst, They will sanctify
KJV: of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify
INT: the work of my hands his midst will sanctify my name