No 'But '
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Hello @throughfaith, first off, I apologize, because I haven't read through this thread yet.
As far as what you said in your OP about Ephesians 2:8, I guess I'll quote your oft given instructions to us by simply saying to you, don't stop there, "read on"
While it's true that Luther, Calvin and all of the other Reformers taught that, "we are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone", this continues to be a doctrine that is taught by ~every~ Protestant denomination today .. because it is so clearly taught in the Bible. As v10 says above, we were made His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works
I believe that the Lord had a purpose in saving us, in making us into wholly new creatures in Christ .. 2 Corinthians 5:17, and then leaving us here as aliens and strangers in this hostile world .. 1 Peter 2:11; e.g. Matthew 5:13-16, 28:19; Mark 16:15; Acts 1:8, Romans 10:13-15, 17, and it was certainly for something greater than continuing to dishonor/displease Him by living in sin/by living in the same way that the world does (the same kind of sinful lifestyle that we used to live in ourselves as unbelievers).
Here again you single out "Calvinism" as teaching a false doctrine, when the doctrine that you are complaining about, that "the faith the justifies is never alone", is taught clearly 1. in the Bible, and therefore 2. by us all (IOW, by all of the churches and denominations that are found within the pale of orthodox Christendom).
As I said to you in another one of your threads, I believe that your fight is rarely against the "boogeyman" that you refer to as Calvinism (specifically). Rather, your fight is against the Bible (and thereby against what is taught by our churches, i.e. taught by Christianity (in general).
~Deut
As far as what you said in your OP about Ephesians 2:8, I guess I'll quote your oft given instructions to us by simply saying to you, don't stop there, "read on"
Ephesians 2
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ~for/unto~ good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
There is no "but" to God's justification of us .. e.g. John 5:24, there is an "also" however, because the very same One who justified/saved us has also promised to see us sanctified throughout the balance of our lives here (and we are commanded to participate with Him in our sanctification, as much as we are able to anyway) .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13.
While it's true that Luther, Calvin and all of the other Reformers taught that, "we are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone", this continues to be a doctrine that is taught by ~every~ Protestant denomination today .. because it is so clearly taught in the Bible. As v10 says above, we were made His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works
I believe that the Lord had a purpose in saving us, in making us into wholly new creatures in Christ .. 2 Corinthians 5:17, and then leaving us here as aliens and strangers in this hostile world .. 1 Peter 2:11; e.g. Matthew 5:13-16, 28:19; Mark 16:15; Acts 1:8, Romans 10:13-15, 17, and it was certainly for something greater than continuing to dishonor/displease Him by living in sin/by living in the same way that the world does (the same kind of sinful lifestyle that we used to live in ourselves as unbelievers).
Just to be clear, we do not choose to do good works/choose to honor, glorify & please God/choose to live a holy, rather than sinful, lifestyle, etc., to be (or to remain) saved. Rather, we choose to do these things because we already are (saved, that is).
Here again you single out "Calvinism" as teaching a false doctrine, when the doctrine that you are complaining about, that "the faith the justifies is never alone", is taught clearly 1. in the Bible, and therefore 2. by us all (IOW, by all of the churches and denominations that are found within the pale of orthodox Christendom).
As I said to you in another one of your threads, I believe that your fight is rarely against the "boogeyman" that you refer to as Calvinism (specifically). Rather, your fight is against the Bible (and thereby against what is taught by our churches, i.e. taught by Christianity (in general).
~Deut
1 John 3
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as He is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
Actually there are some evangelical, scriptural sound churches that correctly teach that salvation is a free gift, no strings attached, no fine print, no hidden clauses.............the antithesis of Calvinism.
It is not conditional upon you forsaking sin, living a holy life, amending your ways, or committing your life to God!
Salvation is a free gift from God, which is simply received by childlike faith in the Gospel. God is completely transparent in His offer.
With regards to the good works...
This is not a quota to be fulfilled that is not what Paul is stating.
“He also raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavens in Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 2:6)
Paul is not speaking about temporal works
This is about the message of the Gospel .. it is DONE
And John is speaking about the dichotomous nature of man.... the flesh and the spiritual.
Hello EleventhHour, Calvinism* teaches that salvation is a free gift, no strings attached, no fine print, no hidden clauses. It teaches that we are saved monergistically, IOW, by God alone, and that our salvation is not "conditioned" upon anything that 'we' do.
(Doesn't the "U" in the Calvinist "TULIP" stand for "Unconditional Election"
)Rather, Calvinism* teaches that true Christians forsake sin, live a holy life, amend their ways, and commit their lives to God because they are ALREADY saved, that such things are the RESULT or FRUIT of God making us, "His workmanship", as "new creatures" in Christ. NONE of these things (that ~we~ do) are the ~cause~ of our salvation (nor are they the cause of us persevering in the faith).
*BTW, this is the very same thing that Arminianism (and Protestantism, in general) teaches as well
That is true and, as a result, this is what all of our Protestant denominations confess (all that fall within the pale of orthodox Christianity anyway, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, etc., and our systematic theologies, incl. BOTH Arminianism and Calvinism). There are no "quotas" to be fulfilled.
God changes us on the inside .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:4-5, which results in a new man/new self/new desire to do "good works" (as well all of the other things that accompany salvation .. Hebrews 6:9) is, again, the "result" or "fruit" of that change, NEVER the cause.
Finally, the many external things that "accompany/result from" the internal changes (that are wrought in us by God) is some of the very best evidence/demonstration/proof that our claim (of having come saving faith in Christ) is truly justified .. James 2:18, 24; 1 John 3:10.
God bless you!
~Deut
Exactly the same as remorse or regret. Being sorry for your sins is changing your mind.
Again. tell me where I have suggested anything beyond that.
My OP is not just aimed at Calvinists . Lordship/ works /' but' salvation is pervasive in many denominations and within the 'pale of Christianity 'and Christianity in general .Its not just within the cults . The devil cannot separate a believer from God ,but he can certainly deceive the vast majority of Christians into ineffectiveness , despair and despondency. He can get them so focused on themselves and their fears that the Gospel is barely shared . I noticed you haven't mentioned once the need to share the good news as the reason we are still here after conversion. ? Paul made this the focus of the majority of his encourament to the churches to do this, not to create 'aquariums ' only but to go fish for men . Thats the 'work '. Thats the point of all of this . Not Lordship salvation and virtue signalling .Hello @throughfaith, first off, I apologize, because I haven't read through this thread yet.
As far as what you said in your OP about Ephesians 2:8, I guess I'll quote your oft given instructions to us by simply saying to you, don't stop there, "read on"
Ephesians 28 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ~for/unto~ good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
There is no "but" to God's justification of us .. e.g. John 5:24, there is an "also" however, because the very same One who justified/saved us has also promised to see us sanctified throughout the balance of our lives here (and we are commanded to participate with Him in our sanctification, as much as we are able to anyway) .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13.
While it's true that Luther, Calvin and all of the other Reformers taught that, "we are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone", this continues to be a doctrine that is taught by ~every~ Protestant denomination today .. because it is so clearly taught in the Bible. As v10 says above, we were made His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works
I believe that the Lord had a purpose in saving us, in making us into wholly new creatures in Christ .. 2 Corinthians 5:17, and then leaving us here as aliens and strangers in this hostile world .. 1 Peter 2:11; e.g. Matthew 5:13-16, 28:19; Mark 16:15; Acts 1:8, Romans 10:13-15, 17, and it was certainly for something greater than continuing to dishonor/displease Him by living in sin/by living in the same way that the world does (the same kind of sinful lifestyle that we used to live in ourselves as unbelievers).
Just to be clear, we do not choose to do good works/choose to honor, glorify & please God/choose to live a holy, rather than sinful, lifestyle, etc., to be (or to remain) saved. Rather, we choose to do these things because we already are (saved, that is).
Here again you single out "Calvinism" as teaching a false doctrine, when the doctrine that you are complaining about, that "the faith the justifies is never alone", is taught clearly 1. in the Bible, and therefore 2. by us all (IOW, by all of the churches and denominations that are found within the pale of orthodox Christendom).
As I said to you in another one of your threads, I believe that your fight is rarely against the "boogeyman" that you refer to as Calvinism (specifically). Rather, your fight is against the Bible (and thereby against what is taught by our churches, i.e. taught by Christianity (in general).
~Deut
1 John 35 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as He is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
1cor9.22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.”
Gal 2 2And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
3But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Hello @throughfaith, first off, I apologize, because I haven't read through this thread yet.
As far as what you said in your OP about Ephesians 2:8, I guess I'll quote your oft given instructions to us by simply saying to you, don't stop there, "read on"
Ephesians 28 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ~for/unto~ good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
There is no "but" to God's justification of us .. e.g. John 5:24, there is an "also" however, because the very same One who justified/saved us has also promised to see us sanctified throughout the balance of our lives here (and we are commanded to participate with Him in our sanctification, as much as we are able to anyway) .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13.
While it's true that Luther, Calvin and all of the other Reformers taught that, "we are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone", this continues to be a doctrine that is taught by ~every~ Protestant denomination today .. because it is so clearly taught in the Bible. As v10 says above, we were made His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works
I believe that the Lord had a purpose in saving us, in making us into wholly new creatures in Christ .. 2 Corinthians 5:17, and then leaving us here as aliens and strangers in this hostile world .. 1 Peter 2:11; e.g. Matthew 5:13-16, 28:19; Mark 16:15; Acts 1:8, Romans 10:13-15, 17, and it was certainly for something greater than continuing to dishonor/displease Him by living in sin/by living in the same way that the world does (the same kind of sinful lifestyle that we used to live in ourselves as unbelievers).
Just to be clear, we do not choose to do good works/choose to honor, glorify & please God/choose to live a holy, rather than sinful, lifestyle, etc., to be (or to remain) saved. Rather, we choose to do these things because we already are (saved, that is).
Here again you single out "Calvinism" as teaching a false doctrine, when the doctrine that you are complaining about, that "the faith the justifies is never alone", is taught clearly 1. in the Bible, and therefore 2. by us all (IOW, by all of the churches and denominations that are found within the pale of orthodox Christendom).
As I said to you in another one of your threads, I believe that your fight is rarely against the "boogeyman" that you refer to as Calvinism (specifically). Rather, your fight is against the Bible (and thereby against what is taught by our churches, i.e. taught by Christianity (in general).
~Deut
1 John 35 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as He is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. [/QUOTE The translation your using for 1 john 3 might be a better conversation for another thread . And the meaning intended in the better translations that do not add ' practicing ',which makes a mess of 1 john 3 .
E
EleventhHour
Guest
Hello EleventhHour, Calvinism* teaches that salvation is a free gift, no strings attached, no fine print, no hidden clauses. It teaches that we are saved monergistically, IOW, by God alone, and that our salvation is not "conditioned" upon anything that 'we' do.
(Doesn't the "U" in the Calvinist "TULIP" stand for "Unconditional Election"
Rather, Calvinism* teaches that true Christians forsake sin, live a holy life, amend their ways, and commit their lives to God because they are ALREADY saved, that such things are the RESULT or FRUIT of God making us, "His workmanship", as "new creatures" in Christ. NONE of these things (that ~we~ do) are the ~cause~ of our salvation (nor are they the cause of us persevering in the faith).
*BTW, this is the very same thing that Arminianism (and Protestantism, in general) teaches as well
That is true and, as a result, this is what all of our Protestant denominations confess (all that fall within the pale of orthodox Christianity anyway, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, etc., and our systematic theologies, incl. BOTH Arminianism and Calvinism). There are no "quotas" to be fulfilled.
God changes us on the inside .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:4-5, which results in a new man/new self/new desire to do "good works" (as well all of the other things that accompany salvation .. Hebrews 6:9) is, again, the "result" or "fruit" of that change, NEVER the cause.
Finally, the many external things that "accompany/result from" the internal changes (that are wrought in us by God) is some of the very best evidence/demonstration/proof that our claim (of having come saving faith in Christ) is truly justified .. James 2:18, 24; 1 John 3:10.
God bless you!
~Deut
Sanctification is synergistic
And salvation requires that the person hears the Gospel, believes and trusts in Christ for salvation.
This is orthodox Christianity.
When someone is quickened ,Born Again,received the Holy Spirit...their whole character starts to change,because Jesus lives in them,he dwell a believer...therefore we are reunited back to our Father..whom a true follower of Christ wants to please him and be obedient to him....we are being transformed from the inside out to be more like Jesus..
We start a relationship worthy of following,because God’s ways are the right ways...we are disciples for the Lord....Jesus should shine out of a believer.
The whole point of salvation is to Glorify God....
E
EleventhHour
Guest
The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.
And we live out our positional sanctification in Christ.
If we aren’t changed etc....then something doesn’t sound right.imo.
It is the work of the Holy Spirit to work in and through us as a born again....we submit our lives to him.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I believe he reprove the world of all sin also, the law can not be a tutor if it through the HS did not show us our guilt
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Repent is not a work, if it was we would be saved by works.
repent is having your mind changed and it’s the work of God
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Nope
repent is much deeper of just repenting for your sin..many repent of their sin yet have no faith whatsoever in Christ or his gospel
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
thats deeper then repenting of your sin, a legalistic term hi h usually means to repent and change first, then god might save you
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The word sin is not found in either of those two passages