Irresistible Grace ?

[awelight]

Nope your attaching the buzz words beginning to mean ' BEFORE the foundation of the world ' .and CHOSEN to mean the same thing .

You are also denying them. Are you not? You have no more grounds for what you are saying than the interpretation given already.

But the verse says BEGINNING and chosen you to salvation THROUGH !!!! ( the vehicle ) sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: As opposed to Enduring the wrath of God and missing the return of Christ. Just the same as God has chosen all those in the Church age the way of salvation is through sanctification and Believing the truth . From the beginning this has been the plan . From the beginning when Paul first shared the Gospel with them ,this has been the way . " So don't fear ,you are on course " . 2 thes 2.5
The context. Just a few verses before ( always read the context.
1¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5¶Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

These verses change nothing about the meaning of this verse. This is an attempt to muddy the waters.

2Th 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: where unto he called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You gave an improper exegesis when you stated: But the verse says BEGINNING and chosen you to salvation THROUGH !!!! ( the vehicle ) sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Let's take a look shall we, at the part under discussion: 13b) .... for that God chose you from the beginning... Now you have to change this meaning to match your doctrine. If it is from the beginning of time, your in serious trouble. But let's let that go for a moment.... unto salvation... the greek word is "eis", the ablative of purpose. So translated "unto salvation or the purpose of salvation"....Then you said "THROUGH", (the vehicle), that is incorrect. The greek word here is: "en", it's primary meaning is "in", the KJV says "through" but this is not a good translation in this case. "en" is the ablative of means) .... by sanctification in [the sphere of] the Spirit and belief in truth...

Just saying.

Now as far as this discussion about the when of the "beginning", let's see what others have to say, since you don't like the one given here.

Albert Barnes said:
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you; - see the notes on 2Th_1:3. “Because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.” The following important things are affirmed or implied here:
(1) That God had chosen or elected them (εἵλετο heileto) to salvation. The doctrine of election, therefore, is true.
(2) That this was from “the beginning” ἀπ ̓ ἀρχῆς ap' archēs; that is, from eternity; see the Joh_1:1 note; Eph_1:4; 3:9-11 notes. The doctrine of eternal election is, therefore, true.
(3) That this was the choice of the persons to whom Paul referred. The doctrine of personal election is, therefore, true.
(4) That this is a reason for thanksgiving. Why should it not be? Can there be any higher ground of praise or gratitude than that God has chosen us to be eternally holy and happy, and that he has from eternity designed that we should be so? Whatever, therefore, may be the feelings with which those who are not chosen to salvation, regard this doctrine, it is clear that those who have evidence that they are chosen should make it a subject of grateful praise. They can have no more exalted source of gratitude than that they are chosen to eternal life.

F.B. Meyer said:
This closing section is full of comfort and inspiration. Believers in Christ are the beloved of God; their salvation dates from His eternal love and choice, and His purpose for us is being wrought out in our characters by the Holy Spirit, who ministers to us through the truth. Our comfort is eternal and our hope is unfailing.

 

[throughfaith]

These verses change nothing about the meaning of this verse. This is an attempt to muddy the waters.

2Th 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: where unto he called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You gave an improper exegesis when you stated: But the verse says BEGINNING and chosen you to salvation THROUGH !!!! ( the vehicle ) sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Let's take a look shall we, at the part under discussion: 13b) .... for that God chose you from the beginning... Now you have to change this meaning to match your doctrine. If it is from the beginning of time, your in serious trouble. But let's let that go for a moment.... unto salvation... the greek word is "eis", the ablative of purpose. So translated "unto salvation or the purpose of salvation"....Then you said "THROUGH", (the vehicle), that is incorrect. The greek word here is: "en", it's primary meaning is "in", the KJV says "through" but this is not a good translation in this case. "en" is the ablative of means) .... by sanctification in [the sphere of] the Spirit and belief in truth...

Just saying.

Now as far as this discussion about the when of the "beginning", let's see what others have to say, since you don't like the one given here.

Albert Barnes said:
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you; - see the notes on 2Th_1:3. “Because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.” The following important things are affirmed or implied here:
(1) That God had chosen or elected them (εἵλετο heileto) to salvation. The doctrine of election, therefore, is true.
(2) That this was from “the beginning” ἀπ ̓ ἀρχῆς ap' archēs; that is, from eternity; see the Joh_1:1 note; Eph_1:4; 3:9-11 notes. The doctrine of eternal election is, therefore, true.
(3) That this was the choice of the persons to whom Paul referred. The doctrine of personal election is, therefore, true.
(4) That this is a reason for thanksgiving. Why should it not be? Can there be any higher ground of praise or gratitude than that God has chosen us to be eternally holy and happy, and that he has from eternity designed that we should be so? Whatever, therefore, may be the feelings with which those who are not chosen to salvation, regard this doctrine, it is clear that those who have evidence that they are chosen should make it a subject of grateful praise. They can have no more exalted source of gratitude than that they are chosen to eternal life.

F.B. Meyer said:
This closing section is full of comfort and inspiration. Believers in Christ are the beloved of God; their salvation dates from His eternal love and choice, and His purpose for us is being wrought out in our characters by the Holy Spirit, who ministers to us through the truth. Our comfort is eternal and our hope is unfailing.

Theses Calvinists said : ...

 

[awelight]

Theses Calvinists said : ...

That seems to be your answer to everything. If they said it, throw it under the rug. Ignore what truth there maybe in it.

It would seem your hatred for "Calvinism, has placed a veil over your eyes for what is true.

 

[throughfaith]

That seems to be your answer to everything. If they said it, throw it under the rug. Ignore what truth there maybe in it.

It would seem your hatred for "Calvinism, has placed a veil over your eyes for what is true.

Its fair to say all Calvinist theologians believe in Calvinsm , teach calvinism , from a calvinst perspective. Unless I'm being overly suspicious ?

 

[49]

Its fair to say all Calvinist theologians believe in Calvinsm , teach calvinism , from a calvinst perspective. Unless I'm being overly suspicious ?

Quick question...are those that believe Calvinism doomed for the lake of fire?

 

[awelight]

Its fair to say all Calvinist theologians believe in Calvinsm , teach calvinism , from a calvinst perspective. Unless I'm being overly suspicious ?

If we are going to be fair....All who interpret the Scriptures, carry a certain amount of prejudice. But whether the information comes from John Calvin, Jacob Arminius, Modernist, Charismatics or whatever, we must stay prayerful and let the Scriptures speak to us their meaning.

There is only one great OBJECTIVE Truth. That is God's truth as revealed in Scripture. There are then many SUBJECTIVE truths being carried about in earthen vessels. Any SUBJECTIVE truth must be compared to the OBJECTIVE truth faithfully. This means with as little prejudice, as one can have in their understanding and be brought to any discussion.

If an individual, has read many works of men, to come to any conclusion, then that one must admit to himself, he is tainted with prejudice. The least prejudiced route, of learning Scripture, would by commonsense be, learning Scripture by the leadership of the Holy Spirit and then seeing what others have to say. The worst prejudicial route then, would be reading or sitting under the teaching of men, then studying the Scriptures to see what they say.

But the true measure, of a sincere spirit of a person, is there willingness to admit, that their beliefs maybe tainted and enter a discussion with a true willingness to learn. A true believer, of say, 5 years, should not be trying to correct one of 40 years. A believer of five years should listen twice as much as they talk.

Beliefs must be tried and tested many times, before they will lead to true conviction in the believer. If the testing is legitimate and they are not just reading and trying to interpret someone elses mail.

Here is my advice, to any who are studying God's Word, for what it is worth.

Start always, in your mind, with the thought, that God must be honored in all things. That any thought or concept, must always give God the Glory. That everything we think must raise our Lord Jesus Christ up and must bring man down. If our SUBJECTIVE truth does not these things, then we should reassess our position.

May God forever be praised and glorified by truth and may man be debased and thrown down by the same truth.

 

[throughfaith]

Quick question...are those that believe Calvinism doomed for the lake of fire?

Not at all . I do not believe that because you believe in Calvinism it means your not saved . People are taken captive after they are saved . No one is saved because of Calvinsm but inspite of it . I consider Calvinists my brothers.

 

[49]

Not at all . I do not believe that because you believe in Calvinism it means your not saved . People are taken captive after they are saved . No one is saved because of Calvinsm but inspite of it . I consider Calvinists my brothers.

Was just curious, throughfaith. May be trying to read too much in to it, but seemed to me you had a dislike for Calvin and Calvinism almost to a point of obsession (i.e., many threads started that circled back to Calvinism). Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Myself, as stated in another post, had not even heard about Calvinism until recently, and still have not read up on it. Have a lot of questions about a lot of things, and still learning, and trying to learn. My questions are not intended to be hateful, ugly, or judgmental...as said, am learning and trying to learn, and unsure about a lot of things still.

Thanks again, and God bless.

 

[throughfaith]

Was just curious, throughfaith. May be trying to read too much in to it, but seemed to me you had a dislike for Calvin and Calvinism almost to a point of obsession (i.e., many threads started that circled back to Calvinism). Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Myself, as stated in another post, had not even heard about Calvinism until recently, and still have not read up on it. Have a lot of questions about a lot of things, and still learning, and trying to learn. My questions are not intended to be hateful, ugly, or judgmental...as said, am learning and trying to learn, and unsure about a lot of things still.

Thanks again, and God bless.

That's ok, I probably sound dreadful on here . lol

 

[throughfaith]

Was just curious, throughfaith. May be trying to read too much in to it, but seemed to me you had a dislike for Calvin and Calvinism almost to a point of obsession (i.e., many threads started that circled back to Calvinism). Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Myself, as stated in another post, had not even heard about Calvinism until recently, and still have not read up on it. Have a lot of questions about a lot of things, and still learning, and trying to learn. My questions are not intended to be hateful, ugly, or judgmental...as said, am learning and trying to learn, and unsure about a lot of things still.

Thanks again, and God bless.

Calvinism has its sway on me for a season. So I looked into it and was then shocked at how bad it is ( unscrpitual) Of course you then want to then warn others of the bondage of Lordship salvation .

 

[dcontroversal]

The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .

But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .

And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .

3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.

4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.

5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .

Many are called it says.....it also says FEW are chosen.....grace is indeed irresistible!

 

[throughfaith]

Many are called it says.....it also says FEW are chosen.....grace is indeed irresistible!

Jesus is talking to the disciples?

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus is talking to the disciples?

The scriptures are clear on choice....from front to back the bible drips with choice and men choosing.....it also makes it crystal clear that some, while being convicted and enlightened refuse to accept or acknowledge the truth...Calvinism is false....it is not of God, it presents a cultish view of scripture!

 

[EleventhHour]

Jesus is talking to the disciples?

Even so, does it not demonstrate in wider application that some resisted grace?

 

[throughfaith]

The scriptures are clear on choice....from front to back the bible drips with choice and men choosing.....it also makes it crystal clear that some, while being convicted and enlightened refuse to accept or acknowledge the truth...Calvinism is false....it is not of God, it presents a cultish view of scripture!

I think I may have misunderstood your post, apologies.

 

[throughfaith]

Even so, does it not demonstrate in wider application that some resisted grace?

My bad I mis spoke . sorry

 

[EleventhHour]

Many are called it says.....it also says FEW are chosen.....grace is indeed irresistible!

Just so no one thinks you adopted Calvinism ... I think you meant grace is indeed resistible.

 

[soggykitten]

Irresistible grace is not Biblical. I think when Jesus shows us proof of that there's really no counter argument to be made.

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.” Matthew 23:37

Matthew 22:14 can perhaps be considered as saying, rather than, many are called but few are chosen, to mean instead, many are called the world over by the Gospel, but few have chosen to follow the call.

Otherwise, what sense would it make to think God called many to him but then chose only a few? Why call many and not allow the many into his grace? When his free gift of grace was put into effect by his love for the whole world. That he beget himself upon a woman and came into the world as a man, his only begotten son. That whosoever would believe in him would not perish in their sins but would have immortal life, salvation.

Whosoever, precludes an elite favored exclusive group of persons. Jesus took the sins of the whole world upon himself on the cross. To what? Save only a few?
Nonsense.

 

[dcontroversal]

Just so no one thinks you adopted Calvinism ... I think you meant grace is indeed resistible.

Yes......I had not had my coffee yet hahahha I will correct it

 

[dcontroversal]

Many are called it says.....it also says FEW are chosen.....grace is indeed RESISTIBLE!

FIXED.......